Comic Book Martial Artist Hierarchy

Originally posted by Deadline
Bullseye is second tier and hes beaten him twice in h2h. What about him stalemating Moon Knight several times.

To be quite honest with its probably ignorance on the part of Batdude and Philsophia their DC Batman family and haven't read as much on Punisher as I have. Serioulsy what warrants Punisher being on the borderline between third and second. Has anyone in the second tier owned his arse or in the third tier. I don't think anyone has. Even DD whos top tier has a hard time defeating him I don't know how that translates into third tier.

He's in a similar position to Mystique, who's a pretty skilled martial artist, is hard to put down even for top tiers, but has a massive damage soak, making her abilities difficult to gauge.

But again, I'm not planning on voting on the change anyway.

I'm for Shado to Fourth, also I propose Bane be moved to Second Tier.

I'm going to use the scans (yours, heh) to make this easier.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Doom killed a lion barehanded in one blow.

"I know where to punch. I do so." That's literally all there is to this showing, and it's laughable as an evidence, especially of him being superior to somebody who induces paralysis and instant knockouts with single pressure point strikes.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Doom's a fencing master.

"the best fencing masters in Europe"

Nice.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/WorldOfNewKrypton03a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/WorldOfNewKrypton03b.jpg

"taught hand to hand by Earth's greatest human proponent"

But not good enough.

Batman>fencing masters from Europe.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Hercules would wrestle the crap out of Superman.Hercules was the best Avenger concerning vibrostaff workouts.

Superman would pressure point the shit out of Hercules and would leave him on the floor spasming in paralysis.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/supermanbatman23a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/supermanbatman23b.jpg

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Humanized Thor handled gun-wielding hoodlums and Zodiac henchmen far better than humanized Superman, such that he was keeping up with Cap (you see humanized Superman keeping up with Bats -- who doesn't even have a SSS-enhanced body -- in those same scenarios?).

Not that it's needed to counter that non-evidence, but here's Superman beating King Cobra, a master martial artist, while the latter was in Batman's body:
http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt19/Max_Eisenhardt/SupesCobra1.jpg
http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt19/Max_Eisenhardt/SupesCobra3.jpg
http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt19/Max_Eisenhardt/SupesCobra2.jpg

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Teen Thor was also one of the best swordsmen in Asgard and has beaten Sif effortlessly.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Loki kicked the crap out of the Disir (Bor's version of Valkyries) single-handedly.

But if you wanna go the "He's owning trained, armed guard en-masse", here is Superman, with barely of a memory as to what he was, owning Parademons en-masse, depowered, and them being armed.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/adventuresof426a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/adventuresof426b.jpg

I'm not familiar with what you're reffering to for Ares, but if they're in the vein of what's been posted above, don't bother.
---

It's hilarious how you've showed me two-three (in Loki's case one) instances of their skill, supposdley to prove that they are in a whole different class, but most of those are either grossly exagerated, not impressive or just flat-out embaressed by actual skill showings from Supermore. Furthermore, and this is the best part, Superman has skill showings to what you've showed from them combined, which says quite a lot about your whole stance.

This board has become ridiculously biased, and this thread just goes to further put an emphasis on that, and this has become so bad it's past point of being funny.

Originally posted by Juk3n
look at the Punisher situation this way. If he was placed 1 tier Below Daredevil on a H2H scale to BEGIN WITH, you wouldn't be able to argue him down a further tier. The blatant evidence says he's a tier under Daredevil according to their fights. But i gotta ask. Is it his toughness that lets him hang or his actual Martial skill? I mean yeah, he can spot openings and take advantage when he see's the chance, but is that a credit to his MA aptitude or his natural fighting intuition?

Anyhow, I see those in discussion have been moved.

For Gorgon to top tier.
I'm still undecided about Drakon. He wipes the floor with Connor Hawke, a solid top tier, everytime he meets him, but he hasn't fought anyone worthwhile besides that.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I propose Bane be moved to Second Tier.

Agreed.

For Bane to second tier.

Philosophia: This is ridiculous. The butt-hurt evident here is palpable and enough to choke on. You can't possibly believe that Superman (or more appropriately, Kent) puts down any of those characters in a bare-handed or melee weapon humanized fight.

I don't care if Kent's been taught by one of DC's greatest martial artists. He's amateurish. His best skill feats exhibit his ability to take advantage of people underestimating him. That's right. Those opponents you show him taking down by pressure points, etc. They were all focusing on his powers, or lack thereof, rather than his skill proficiency. It is that very reason that permits him to have skillful showings because EVERYONE either forgets, or doesn't know, he has some skill. And it's literally announced every time he has a skill showing.

But he's an amateur.

Batman was once also, despite his years of training. Batman in Batman: Year One was nearly toppled by three young kids stealing tv's. Got stabbed by a prostitute because he wasn't paying attention. And what has Clark done when put in that position, where there's no reason for people to have any preconception of him, like when he deals with some opponents who don't recognize him at all? batdude123 showed us part of it but didn't finish:
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/supermanbatmanannual02c.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Skill/combat/supermanbatmanannual02d.jpg

Here's what happened next:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/More%20Random/Superman18.jpg

Should anybody be ashamed that they were ambushed by the Joker? Not really. But you can just hear Batman's words growling: "Amateur. Lucky. Fool." Those are not the words you'd describe Doom, or Ares, or Hercules, or Loki, etc., whatever time in their career we're speaking of. Of course, you go on a tirade about how Doom only killed a lion and that shows nothing but precision striking. Let's face it, if you had powerless Superman flipping around naked and one-shotting a frikkin lion with his fist, that'd be one of the first, if not first, things you'd point to concerning his skill. Make your arguments, but let's not kid ourselves.

And who else are we comparing Clark to? Thor? Really? Humanized Thor is actually less capable of handling himself in a melee fight than powerless Superman? Powerless Superman can't even keep up with Batman and Robin during training (look at batdude123's first scan)! Powerless Thor can keep up with and actually save Captain America in a fire-fight surrounded by ZODIAC minions with guns racing across rooftops.

Try this exercise. Look at these scans and switch in Batman with Cap, a recently depowered Superman in with a recently humanized Thor. Do you (or frankly anybody else reading this), do you honestly think Clark would be keeping up with Bats? Fat. Chance. Clark would be left in Batman's dust and would have to be saved so many times, he'd ask Alfred to send a Batjet with some exo-suit for Clark to keep up:

The heavy reliance on Superman training with one of the world's greatest martial artists is a red herring. Of course, he's not stupid and he's not arrogant enough to not learn at Batman's side. But being a proxy of Batman isn't adequate enough to establish a skill clearly matching, mush less surpassing someone like Thor. And taking these proxy arguments, frikkin Thor trained with Cap incessantly in their training sessions. And would you EVER hear Cap lambasting Thor with words like, "Amateur. Lucky. Fool." No. You do not.

Philosophia: And what exactly was the point of lambasting me for referencing melee weapon showings? Melee weapons are part of the consideration here. And are you really arguing that Superman is in the same class a swordsman as Doom or Thor or Ares or Loki?

No. They're all a class above. And Superman and the rest of those characters in the fourth tier (Colossus? Cyclops? Boom Boom? wtf?) is a class (or several times) below concerning melee weaponry. Any arguments to the contrary are either lazy deflection or painful lack of education. So if you want MORE scans because you are painfully uneducated, I can provide them.

Unfortunately, I'm not going to rely on common sense prevailing here, as it hasn't been long enough for the petulance to have died down. Oi vey.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Here's what happened next:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/More%20Random/Superman18.jpg

hahaha.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Try this exercise. Look at these scans and switch in Batman with Cap, a recently depowered Superman in with a recently humanized Thor. Do you (or frankly anybody else reading this), do you honestly think Clark would be keeping up with Bats? Fat. Chance. Clark would be left in Batman's dust and would have to be saved so many times, he'd ask Alfred to send a Batjet with some exo-suit for Clark to keep up:

The heavy reliance on Superman training with one of the world's greatest martial artists is a red herring. Of course, he's not stupid and he's not arrogant enough to not learn at Batman's side. But being a proxy of Batman isn't adequate enough to establish a skill clearly matching, mush less surpassing someone like Thor. And taking these proxy arguments, frikkin Thor trained with Cap incessantly in their training sessions. And would you EVER hear Cap lambasting Thor with words like, "Amateur. Lucky. Fool." No. You do not.

I've seen those scans before and I got to say thats even more impressive than I thought those aren't even regular thugs. Im also quite sure that Batman had to save a depowered Supermans arse from several regular thugs.

First.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Philosophia: This is ridiculous. The butt-hurt evident here is palpable and enough to choke on. You can't possibly believe that Superman (or more appropriately, Kent) puts down any of those characters in a bare-handed or melee weapon humanized fight.

Second.
You're still going with those Cap/Thor scans, when they show absolutley nothing. It's Thor and Steve plowing through random fodder. Hm, on second though, it's not exactly plowing, since Cap has to save Thor from being overwhelmed. 🙂 There's no actual worthwhile skill actually being displayed and it's certainly not even close to what you're desperatley wanting it to be, and you know it.

Third.
The tangential "Clark is an amateur" has been funny enough. And I know what I'm about to do is going to make half of your post collapse into irrelevancy, and thus your butthurt is going to reach critical levels but..

..the issue took place before they even joined the Justice League of America so yes, Clark was still just an 'amateur' back then. So it has no relevance to current Superman who since then has gotten not only more experienced, but also directly trained with Mongul and Batman, and has demonstrated that training in actual combat.

The "everybody is underestimating him, that's why he looks skilled using pressure points" is sad for plenty of reasons, one of them being the fact that being able to use pressure points to the point where you can paralyze or render unconscious your opponent with just one itself denotes great skill. Another fact is that, like already pointed out, he has been trained by highly skilled fighters, in one instance it even being stated why he is that good. (the fight against the kryptonian soldier)

Fourth.
If I believed that melee showings have no bearing on the characters' skill, I wouldn't have answered them at all. I did. I just found it funny that you repeatedly use it for every character, because it's not like the sword is a reccuring weapon when it comes to Thor or Doom's comics. There's also the fact that, obviously, Superman doesn't employ that kind of weapons, and the comparison of their skill not being able to be made.

And finally, fifth.
Funnily enough, you're the one who is getting worked up over this pretty hard, and the discussion doesn't seem to be moving anywhere, not only in terms of the actual arguments, but also because the moves of the characters have already been made. I'm not going to pollute the thread with something that has no bearing at the moment, so unless there's anything substantial you'd like to add..🙂

Phil taking moral high ground in 123......

First. I'm free to call it like I see it. I wasn't expecting a unilateral dismissal of anything I posted.

Second. You still cannot be implying that Clark Kent would have been keeping up with Batman in that situation. You know exactly what would have happened, Batman yelling at Clark, "Stay down. Don't get in my way. Exo-suit is on route."

Third. Clark is an amateur. He took advantage of people underestimating, or simply not knowing anything, of Clark's training. And I know EXACTLY when that issue took place. I have it. Which is why I mention that you cannot possibly think Batman would be characterizing, "Amateur. Lucky. Fool." at Doom, Ares, Loki, Hercules during "whatever time in their career we're speaking of." Clark is still an amateur. An amateur adept at taking advantage of amateurish mistakes of underestimation and over-confidence, but an amateur. Thor isn't. Hercules isn't. Doom isn't. Ares isn't. Loki isn't.

Fourth. Deflection. You're still back-handedly insinuating that melee weaponry skill has little to do with comparing them because... Superman doesn't use them or demonstrated much proficiency? Well, no kidding. That's the point. That's a plus for Ares, Loki, Thor, Hercules, Doom. That's a minus for Superman, Colossus, Boom Boom, etc. We don't just throw it all out because Superman or any of them haven't had a chance to show proficiency in weaponry. We. Take. That. Into. Consideration.

Fifth. Cease with the butt-hurt and the arbitrary reasoning and you won't receive a pointed (or consterned) rebuttal. Don't compare your annoyance that Superman couldn't move up a tier after dozens of pages and weeks of debate with my annoyance that ten characters got moved down as a result of petulance after a few dozen posts in a week. If we wanted to tier the levels of butt-hurt here, well... I'll leave it at that.

edit: 😖hifty:

Originally posted by Philosophía

Third.
The tangential "Clark is an amateur" has been funny enough. And I know what I'm about to do is going to make half of your post collapse into irrelevancy, and thus your butthurt is going to reach critical levels but..

..the issue took place before they even joined the Justice League of America so yes, Clark was still just an 'amateur' back then. So it has no relevance to current Superman who since then has gotten not only more experienced, but also directly trained with Mongul and Batman, and has demonstrated that training in actual combat.

Edit: ODG how can you claim Superman only gets pressure points in because people underestimate him when in one of those instances denoted the person he's hitting with a nerve attack is Mongul II, you know...one of the guys who actually trained him and knows what he can do.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Try this exercise. Look at these scans and switch in Batman with Cap, a recently depowered Superman in with a recently humanized Thor. Do you (or frankly anybody else reading this), do you honestly think Clark would be keeping up with Bats? Fat. Chance. Clark would be left in Batman's dust and would have to be saved so many times, he'd ask Alfred to send a Batjet with some exo-suit for Clark to keep up:

The heavy reliance on Superman training with one of the world's greatest martial artists is a red herring. Of course, he's not stupid and he's not arrogant enough to not learn at Batman's side. But being a proxy of Batman isn't adequate enough to establish a skill clearly matching, mush less surpassing someone like Thor. And taking these proxy arguments, frikkin Thor trained with Cap incessantly in their training sessions. And would you EVER hear Cap lambasting Thor with words like, "Amateur. Lucky. Fool." No. You do not.

Good point. I don't think Clark would be entirely useless to Batman, who is more of a dick than Cap is anyway and would probably be more critical on Clark than Cap would be on Thor, but I can't honestly say that I see Clark performing as well as Thor in this scenario.

Also, off topic, wouldn't melee weapons and the expertise in how to use them also be considered a "martial art"? As such, I don't really understand how it could be used against characters who rely on such weapons instead of used for them.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Good point. I don't think Clark would be entirely useless to Batman, who is more of a dick than Cap is anyway and would probably be more critical on Clark than Cap would be on Thor, but I can't honestly say that I see Clark performing as well as Thor in this scenario.

Also, off topic, wouldn't melee weapons and the expertise in how to use them also be considered a "martial art"? As such, I don't really understand how it could be used against characters who rely on such weapons instead of used for them.

I think weapon skills should be considered but only secondarily to hand to hand skills. Otherwise Green Arrow would be Top Tier because of his skills with a bow and Hal Jordan would be Top Tier as well because of his skill using his weapon, his ring.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
It is a martial art, but then so is marksmanship with a gun or bow by the literal definition of the word.

I think weapon skills should be considered but only secondarily to hand to hand skills. Otherwise Green Arrow would be Top Tier because of his skills with a bow and Hal Jordan would be Top Tier as well because of his skill using his weapon, his ring.

I agree that it ends becoming dicey if you look at strictly from weapons view. It can be a slippery slope with the list being filled with nothing but weapon masters.

I would think that melee weapons should be taken into consideration far more than ranged weapons, though. But again, things could get messy with picking and choosing what's acceptable and what's not.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
It is a martial art, but then so is marksmanship with a gun or bow by the literal definition of the word.

I think weapon skills should be considered but only secondarily to hand to hand skills. Otherwise Green Arrow would be Top Tier because of his skills with a bow and Hal Jordan would be Top Tier as well because of his skill using his weapon, his ring.

High Ball would be cosmic tier, mother f*cker. uhuh

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Second. You still cannot be implying that Clark Kent would have been keeping up with Batman in that situation. You know exactly what would have happened, Batman yelling at Clark, "Stay down. Don't get in my way. Exo-suit is on route."

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Humanized Thor is actually less capable of handling himself in a melee fight than powerless Superman? Powerless Superman can't even keep up with Batman and Robin during training (look at batdude123's first scan)!

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And I know EXACTLY when that issue took place. I have it.

What's truly hysterical is you using Batman calling Superman an amateur at that stage in his life as somehow the be-all end-all statement when, like I said, at that moment in time he really was -- and you directly (and quite retardedly, I'm sorry to say) ignoring the immense experience (including the 1000 years of constant fighting) and training he has received and saying that Doom/Thor/Ares etc "would never be called amateurs!!" thus they are superior skill wise is one of the most idiotic arguments I've had the pleasure (yes, I laughed) of seeing in quite a while.

I never said that them being skilled in weapon fighting isn't a plus compared to Superman, that's why I even directly adressed them with superior skill related scans from Superman.

Like I said:

Originally posted by Philosophía
Funnily enough, you're the one who is getting worked up over this pretty hard, and the discussion doesn't seem to be moving anywhere, not only in terms of the actual arguments, but also because the moves of the characters have already been made. I'm not going to pollute the thread with something that has no bearing at the moment, so unless there's anything substantial you'd like to add..🙂