Comic Book Martial Artist Hierarchy

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I agree that it ends becoming dicey if you look at strictly from weapons view. It can be a slippery slope with the list being filled with nothing but weapon masters.

I would think that melee weapons should be taken into consideration far more than ranged weapons, though. But again, things could get messy with picking and choosing what's acceptable and what's not.

I can see how some people would be frustrated by the lack of respect Superman gets here and the forum as a whole. I think he's proven himself to be a moderately skilled combatant in his own right, but at the same time, I don't see him clearly beyond some of the other people mentioned in the same breath.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I don't see him clearly beyond some of the other people mentioned in the same breath.

That isn't being argued.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Anyhow, I see those in discussion have been moved.

For Gorgon to top tier.
I'm still undecided about Drakon. He wipes the floor with Connor Hawke, a solid top tier, everytime he meets him, but he hasn't fought anyone worthwhile besides that.

Roy Harper's far from useless either. He brawls with Nightwing a lot, and he got owned worse than Connor.

Originally posted by Philosophía
It's funny how you keep bringing up "running along and hitting shit with the hammer" as something so awe-inspiring and combat-skill based, that it's just impossible for me to possibly suggest Superman would be doing along Batman. Without evidence. Oh, wait, I recall the evidence.

Yes, it's the scan from when Superman hadn't even joined the Justice League yet, much less undertake the training or accumulate the experience he acquired latter in life. But which you obviously knew of: You should have just said that you didn't know when it took place, because now you're basically just admitting to misleading people, funnily enough.

What training has he done that leads you to think that Superman had a jump in skill like Batman had a jump in skill from Batman: Year One? Taking down jerks who completely and utterly underestimate him and/or are cocky about their chances against Superman? Casting aspersions about me misleading people is comedy gold when I'm the guy that showed what happened on the next two pages. I'm talking to you, you who read the comic. Anybody else that didn't notice Dick Grayson's homoerotic naked thighs has only themselves to blame if they thought that was current Superman and Batman. Nice deflection. Baselessly accusing me of not knowing what time in their careers that comic took place in, and then escalating to accusing me of trying to mislead other people in my debate. with. you?

Originally posted by Philosophía
What's truly hysterical is you using Batman calling Superman an amateur at that stage in his life as somehow the be-all end-all statement when, like I said, at that moment in time he really was -- and you directly (and quite retardedly, I'm sorry to say) ignoring the immense experience (including the 1000 years of constant fighting) and training he has received and saying that Doom/Thor/Ares etc "would never be called amateurs!!" thus they are superior skill wise is one of the most idiotic arguments I've had the pleasure (yes, I laughed) of seeing in quite a while.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Stats/DoomSkill02Daredevil38.jpg

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Stats/ThorSkill06495.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Stats/ThorSkill07.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Stats/ThorSkill08.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Stats/ThorSkill08a495.jpg

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Stats/ThorSkill01491.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Stats/ThorSkill02.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Stats/ThorSkill03.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Stats/ThorSkill04.jpg

And sorry, but we never discussed Superman's thousands of years of experience because most of the people being discussed, e.g., Thor, Hercules, Loki, and Ares, have MORE experience. And I've seen MANY people unilaterally dismiss giving such folks the benefit of the doubt simply because they're really old. Why would you even bring that up as if it were some glaring mistake on my part? IT HURTS YOUR CASE.

Originally posted by Philosophía
I never said that them being skilled in weapon fighting isn't a plus compared to Superman, that's why I even directly adressed them with superior skill related scans from Superman.

Like I said:

So that was my last reply.

It's your arguments I have a problem with. I'm not going around petitioning the creation of fifth tiers or mass moving of a dozen characters to ease my butt hurt. Irony, this is not. Criticism, this is.

And I can't believe I actually had to waste my time making the case that Ares, God of War, happens to be a class above Colossus in H2H and melee weapons combat. It's like I somehow infused any suggestion to the contrary with some sort of merit by dignifying that idiocy with a response.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Edit: ODG how can you claim Superman only gets pressure points in because people underestimate him when in one of those instances denoted the person he's hitting with a nerve attack is Mongul II, you know...one of the guys who actually trained him and knows what he can do.

But to suggest Thor, Ares, Loki, Hercules, and Doom have even less justification to stay at their current tier because some people are campaigning that Superman's history suggests he's actually more capable in a H2H or melee weapon fight then they are? W. T. F.

If it were the result of some sort of measured exhaustive debate with scans galore being presented over the course of weeks with dozens of folks casting their vote, that'd be fine. As it stands, this mass move came so fast, so quickly, so inexplicably rushed due to the chance to vindicate an incredible amount of palbable butt hurt that -- guess what? -- Rage.Of.Olympus didn't even get the chance to vote against Thor being moved down.

That doesn't strike anybody as ironic, much less questionable?

The votes were over most of a week, and easily had the thresh hold needed. The topic had also come up before on multiple occasions.

Let's try not to make more drama out of this than it needs.

^ Yeah. Clearly, the amount of drama that people made about Superman not being moved up a tier over several weeks and dozens of pages was just the right amount of drama that everyone needed. Clearly.

In any case, I said my piece about the overall comedy that just ensued over Superman butt hurt. It's evident that any remedying of the situation will require cases be made for each of the characters.

I'd have started with Thor, but he's already too close to general Superman butt hurt, so I'll start with someone else. Someone who actually had a 2-1 vote in favor of being moved to second tier before the epicness that just ensued: Ares.

Regarding the older Ares to second vote, comicfan, the other poster in favor actually ended up voting for his move to fourth.

We would be better served dealing with these issues on a tier by tier basis. Starting with the 2nd tier. Straight vote to move a character up a tier or down a tier. 7 days, then move on to the next.

ODG, in Supermans defense, when powerless he did defeat Kobra in hand to hand combat using various brawling tactics he's learned from all his fights, such as Doomsdays.

There's also the experience fighting with Wonder Woman in Asgard..

Not that I think he could beat Kobra again though.. It was obvious he was underestimating Superman.

No way should Supes be in the upper levels of a martial artist hierarchy though.

Notwithstanding your comments on Thor, I probably wouldn't put him in either.

But that said, he "should" be more skilled than Superman, considering his background.

Originally posted by dmills
We would be better served dealing with these issues on a tier by tier basis. Starting with the 2nd tier. Straight vote to move a character up a tier or down a tier. 7 days, then move on to the next.

Additionally the thread goes through peaks and lulls in terms of people voting, so I haven't really been strictly periodic about the amount of time a proposal has in play, although generally the period of time between updates to the hierarchy has been reasonably substantial.

Most of that last bulk move had majorities of 7-9, a few had them 5-6.

StyleTime was also indicative of supporting the moves, but thinking it unnecessary to vote.

@X,

😂 I meant one tier at a time, not one character at a time! Say this week we start on tier 2, we look at the players, vote up one or down one and move on next tier. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Are you suggesting examining the position of every character? I'm not on principle against it if there is order to the process, but it sounds like a very long process.

Additionally the thread goes through peaks and lulls in terms of people voting, so I haven't really been strictly periodic about the amount of time a proposal has in play, although generally the period of time between updates to the hierarchy has been reasonably substantial.

Most of that last bulk move had majorities of 7-9, a few had them 5-6.

StyleTime was also indicative of supporting the moves, but thinking it unnecessary to vote.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Regarding the older Ares to second vote, comicfan, the other poster in favor actually ended up voting for his move to fourth.

Originally posted by cdtm
ODG, in Supermans defense, when powerless he did defeat Kobra in hand to hand combat using various brawling tactics he's learned from all his fights, such as Doomsdays.

There's also the experience fighting with Wonder Woman in Asgard..

Not that I think he could beat Kobra again though.. It was obvious he was underestimating Superman.

That victory and his foray into mythology actually went into my consideration of voting for him to move up to the third tier. But you know what Superman's 1000-year foray into myth actually did? Nothing more than simply putting him on par with Any. Average. Asgardian/Olympian. Warrior. *applause*

All in all, the way it went down killed 2 birds with one stone. It saved this thread from becoming a Superman thread and it prevented a complete cluster-phuck of scan spam.

We all won IMO.

BTW, I voted against Dr. Strange and Ares moving down. I had also considered Doom as well. But whatever, it's not as if it's a huge outrage that they we're moved down.

^ Yeah. I mean, if folks like Rage.Of.Olympus didn't vote against the move, they all actually must have supported it, amirite? Totally safe to assume so. Not like a bunch of folks hoped to get these moves done in a swift manner or anything, amirite?

Originally posted by dmills
All in all, the way it went down killed 2 birds with one stone. It saved this thread from becoming a Superman thread and it prevented a complete cluster-phuck of scan spam.

We all won IMO.

Clearly.

What are you on about ODG? I don't want to misinterpret what you're trying to say here.

^ I greet offerings of excuses and justifications with sarcasm. Nothing more. Nothing less.

We can move on.