Comic Book Martial Artist Hierarchy

Started by Deadline83 pages
Originally posted by Juk3n
look at the Punisher situation this way. If he was placed 1 tier Below Daredevil on a H2H scale to BEGIN WITH, you wouldn't be able to argue him down a further tier. The blatant evidence says he's a tier under Daredevil according to their fights. But i gotta ask. Is it his toughness that lets him hang or his actual Martial skill? I mean yeah, he can spot openings and take advantage when he see's the chance, but is that a credit to his MA aptitude or his natural fighting intuition?

All really good Mas have natural talent but Punisher has studied alot of martial arts as well why wouldn't we give him the benefit of the doubt? You don't get to dislocate DDs arm just by being talented, you need alot of skill.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I find him borderline between the two tiers as I can't determine how much of his good showings (wins/stalemates/close losses) can be attributed to martial skill and how much can be attributed to his massive damage soak.

Ok, but to be fair why would you have a hard time doing that when most of my scans don't involve him having to use lots of damage soak? Even in one my scans when fighting DD a man specifically stated that DD and Frank were both using judo and karate.

Also bare in mind that eventhough he might use damage soak alot of skill is used as well. Damage soak can help you fight with a broken leg but it won't evade and block an attack when Daken jumps out at you. Just the fact he was able to do that without having superhuman reflexes is a testament to his skills.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Clark. Can. Not. Keep. Up. With. Batman. Thor. Can. Keep. Up. With. Captain. America.
You've actually reached the point where you stick the fingers in your ears and do the trollish dance? That's quite something. 😂

Like I said, Thor did absolutley nothing impressive concerning what is discussed -- which is his actual combat skill. He -- and I mean this quite literally -- just ran along and brawled/smashed shit with his hammer -- like I've already said, and he was even overwhelmed until Cap saved him. (and don't worry Alfheim, I caught that edit. The irony made me smile).

If you find that more impressive than being able to use pressure points to paralyze or instantly render unconscious, or, the example I already used, where Superman outfought a master martial artist in Batman's body, then that's fine. Stupid, but fine.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What training has he done that leads you to think that Superman had a jump in skill like Batman had a jump in skill from Batman: Year One?
You're asking me what leads me to believe that Superman has become better from when he hadn't even joined the Justice League, when he has not only accumulated massive amount of experience, including constant fighting for 1000 years, but also underwent training that he even had whole arcs dedicated to and which have visibly increased his combat skill, repeatedly being brought up and showed when he uses pressure strikes capable of paralysis and instant knockouts?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Taking down jerks who completely and utterly underestimate him and/or are cocky about their chances against Superman?
This should be a board meme. "Surprise buttsecks" should be replaced with "Surprise skill showing!". 😂

I'll repeat what I already said:

"The "everybody is underestimating him, that's why he looks skilled using pressure points" is sad for plenty of reasons, one of them being the fact that being able to use pressure points to the point where you can paralyze or render unconscious your opponent with just one itself denotes great skill. Another fact is that, like already pointed out, he has been trained by highly skilled fighters, justifying this level of skill, in one instance it even being stated why he is that good. (the fight against the kryptonian soldier)"

Ah, speaking of which, did I mention the fact that when he out-fought the master martial artist King Cobra, while the latter was in Batman's body, it was before he underwent Mongul's training and started consistently showing combat skill and using pressure points? Well, I did now.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Casting aspersions about me misleading people is comedy gold when I'm the guy that showed what happened on the next two pages. I'm talking to you, you who read the comic. Anybody else that didn't notice Dick Grayson's homoerotic naked thighs has only themselves to blame if they thought that was current Superman and Batman. Nice deflection. Baselessly accusing me of not knowing what time in their careers that comic took place in, and then escalating to accusing me of trying to mislead other people in my debate. with. you?
You've mislead people for the simple fact that you didn't mention the context in which that scene took place, which is very relevant since it takes place at an early point of Superman's career, before he gathered the immense amount of experience and battle skill throughout training with the best.

But like I've already said, that's not the hilarious part. You using Batman calling Superman early in his career an amateur, and then ignoring everything else, included the experience, training and skill showings Superman has demonstrated afterwards, so that you can say "Doom/Thor/Loki would never be called amateurs!! For that reason, they are > Superman!" is the truly dramatically sad part.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And sorry, but we never discussed Superman's thousands of years of experience because most of the people being discussed, e.g., Thor, Hercules, Loki, and Ares, have MORE experience. And I've seen MANY people unilaterally dismiss giving such folks the benefit of the doubt simply because they're really old. Why would you even bring that up as if it were some glaring mistake on my part? IT HURTS YOUR CASE.
Well, if you'd actually be capable (which I like to think you are, this discussion notwithstanding) of following what's being discussed, you'd realize that the 1000 years experience wasn't used in order to show that he is superior to the characters you've brought up, which is why I haven't used as evidence when I directly adressed them. It was used as just one of the multitude of evidence to dispute the notion that Superman hasn't become far better since the laughable instance you're using to downplay him(the "being called an amateur by Batman" one).

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Superman beating the crap out of parademons? That somehow matches Thor's, Ares', Loki's and Doom's swordsmanship mastery? lolwut?
haermm

Is something wrong with your display, or are you actually lying in my face, when it's quite obvious that the parademons showing was far from the only argument I used, much less being the one I was basing my entire stance on, since it's one of the less-impressive displays? I wish I'd say that's funny, but it's just pathetic.

I've brought up pressure point strikes to instantly KO or induce paralysis, the training he's received at the hands of various expert combatants, including the likes of Batman and Mongul or him outfighting a master martial artist in Bruce's body, and you're going "Superman beating Parademns matches them? lolwut?" dur?

I'm done with this.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

That victory and his foray into mythology actually went into my consideration of voting for him to move up to the third tier. But you know what Superman's 1000-year foray into myth actually did? Nothing more than simply putting him on par with Any. Average. Asgardian/Olympian. Warrior. *applause*

You're preaching to the choir.

Most people usually err on the side of Superman being someone without any skills whatsoever. But he's no warrior, either.. That just isn't who he is.

Orion and Wonder Woman are warriors. Superman is an inspiration, an icon.

I never did like how pre crisis Supes was pigeonholed as a brawler all the time, beating people down.

Originally posted by Philosophía
(and don't worry Alfheim, I caught that edit. The irony made me smile).

Meh I was too eager to catch you out. You know what they say about haste or maybe you don't. Its not like you don't talk out of your arse though.

Originally posted by Philosophía

I'm done with this.

Moral high ground! I got to say though I would like to see some other scans from DumbGo on Thors combat skill. I would usually assume your too stuck up and believe everything you say is correct due to some arguments you have made on this forum but maybe you're right this time.

😂

^ Meh you might have a case for Thor but theres alot of people in third tier who are alot better than Superman. Scans of parademons and pressure points aint gonna cut it.

Just for fun, I'd like to know the number of appearances that Thor has.

Because this is false, since we're discussing the Post-Crisis version:

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
A comic character that's made over 6000 appearances

Propose:
Mongul Jr to Fourth
Forerunner to Third

Also can anyone show some evidence for Adam Warlock being in the same tier as Iron Fist?

Originally posted by Juk3n
look at the Punisher situation this way. If he was placed 1 tier Below Daredevil on a H2H scale to BEGIN WITH, you wouldn't be able to argue him down a further tier. The blatant evidence says he's a tier under Daredevil according to their fights. But i gotta ask. Is it his toughness that lets him hang or his actual Martial skill? I mean yeah, he can spot openings and take advantage when he see's the chance, but is that a credit to his MA aptitude or his natural fighting intuition?

Does Frank's godly damage soak factor into his fights with streets more than his skill does? That is the question. Now, don't get me wrong, Frank is a great fighter, but this is a guy who can fall 20+ stories onto pavement, then get hit buy a car and keep going like nothing happened. Frank Castle is a blunt force trauma a sponge.

I wouldn't have any problem if Frank gets moved to second tier, I can totally understand people being of that opinion, but in my mind his ability to contend with Daredevil has more to do with his never say die attitude and insane levels of durability, that it does strictly h2h skill

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Does Frank's godly damage soak factor into his fights with streets more than his skill does? That is the question. Now, don't get me wrong, Frank is a great fighter, but this is a guy who can fall 20+ stories onto pavement, then get hit buy a car and keep going like nothing happened. Frank Castle is a blunt force trauma a sponge.

I wouldn't have any problem if Frank gets moved to second tier, I can totally understand people being of that opinion, but in my mind his ability to contend with Daredevil has more to do with his never say die attitude and insane levels of durability, that it does strictly h2h skill


I agree with this completely.

I really have no problem with him being second tier I just believe his ability to hang with high level streets has less to do with his skill and more to do with his damage soak.

This is pretty easy to prove if you count how many punches he gives/receives in each battle.

So as I understood it, Thor, Loki, Doom etc. were moved down a tier?

😂

^ Did i miss an update? i thought Superman was still in 4th?

What are you talking about?

^ lulz. this motherphucker edit's his comment so i look like the jackass. well done, sir, well done.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
I agree with this completely.

I really have no problem with him being second tier I just believe his ability to hang with high level streets has less to do with his skill and more to do with his damage soak.

Then why did you vote against it? Define high level Bullseye?

@srank,

So basically you're saying that Frank is the Rocky Balboa of super heroes?

Originally posted by marwash22
^ lulz. this motherphucker edit's his comment so i look like the jackass. well done, sir, well done.
That's low.

Originally posted by dmills
@srank,

So basically you're saying that Frank is the Rocky Balboa of super heroes?

Sure.