Comic Book Martial Artist Hierarchy

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
That's correct, he was holding back. But DD couldn't think straight... and he still looked better at the end of the fight.

Yeah mean... when he ran away?

The whole time Cap was like "Stop fighting? Who are you? You have Daredevils powers but you fight sloppy. Stay down. Just give up. I don't want to fight." and all that jazz. The only time Matt "looked better" was at the start of the fight when he opened up on Cap from out of left field without warning... but Cap turned that round pretty quickly.

Meh, I think your reading too much into the physical attributes of Panther Skrank. Panther isn't Cap. I doubt his physical attributes would be played up as much.

His an A-list Martial Artists in my opinion. There's a reason why his held his own pretty well against Rogers.

I also don't think Panther is on Cap's level physically. I'd still give Rogers the advantage in all physical categories excluding shit like senses.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Yeah mean... when he ran away?

The whole time Cap was like "Stop fighting? Who are you? You have Daredevils powers but you fight sloppy. Stay down. Just give up. I don't want to fight." and all that jazz. The only time Matt "looked better" was at the start of the fight when he opened up on Cap from out of left field without warning... but Cap turned that round pretty quickly.

He ran away because he realized what radiation did to him. I wouldn't say Steve was dominating that fight... but I dunno, maybe I should re-read it.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Meh, I think your reading too much into the physical attributes of Panther Skrank. Panther isn't Cap. I doubt his physical attributes would be played up as much.

His an A-list Martial Artists in my opinion. There's a reason why his held his own pretty well against Rogers.

I also don't think Panther is on Cap's level physically. I'd still give Rogers the advantage in all physical categories excluding shit like senses.

If you think that Panther is physically more in line with Daredevil's build than Captain America sure, that opens the door to the possibility of T'Challa being of an equal skill level; but IMO the reality of the situation is that physically Panther is more or less equal with Steve Rogers. I mean, I always got the impression that thanks to the heart shaped herb Panther was operating on the roughly the same level as Wolverine and Cap, which is slightly above standard peak human streets. He always seemed to be above peak human. /shrug

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
And what else is there? An arbitrary "who the hell cares" top tier placement for what reason exactly? Based on Black Panther's fights with top tier fighters in conjunction attributes, he doesn't appear to be quite as skilled as the rest of the fighters in the tier.

I think this is faulty because more of the martial artists on his level are mostly dedicated fighters or Batman. BP's showings are divided between tech, intelligence and other types of feats while most of his competition get much more martial focused action. By that alone Panther would hindered featwise.

Originally posted by Bentley
I think this is faulty because more of the martial artists on his level are mostly dedicated fighters or Batman. BP's showings are divided between tech, intelligence and other types of feats while most of his competition get much more martial focused action. By that alone Panther would hindered featwise.

This seems like a very odd statement to make. You have to be able to substantiate your opinion of a characters skill somehow, and if you aren't using feats to formulate your opinion, what are you using?

A lack of feats is a lack of feats. Theorizing the reasoning behind why such a lack exists in first place largely immaterial; the fact that it does exist is enough. If we aren't creating informed decisions based on the information at hand (which is largely feats and a small portion hearsay), then every placement on this list is entirely arbitrary, based on personal preference and of no practical use to anyone.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Because agility doesn't equate to skill?

That a pathetic excuse. So were going to assume that it was all enhancement and no training isn't Wolverine supposed to be ****ing enhanced as well? So doesn't that indicate that BP would need more than just enhancement.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Cap left DD unconscious when he (Captain America) was drugged in streets of poison. Pretty much two shotted him IIRC - but Matt did dodged some attacks prior to being put down.

Cap was outfighting DD even though he was holding back and Matt was berserk for some reason (I forget why) in their exhibition match.

Cap had DD pinned when he (Cap again) was mind controlled by Dr. Faustus.

That's off the top of my head. I can't remember if there are any other examples without looking into it.

In the streets of posion arc DD specifically stated that he was rusty and he was also messed up because he had been in a demonic dimension.

Weren't you arguing that BP vs ironfist wasn't alowed because Iron Fist was mindcontrolled? Just because DD was beserk doesn't mean that DD would have fought just as well as he would have normally.

Originally posted by Deadline
That a pathetic excuse. So were going to assume that it was all enhancement and no training isn't Wolverine supposed to be ****ing enhanced as well? So doesn't that indicate that BP would need more than just enhancement.

He grabbed Wolverine and tossed him. Big deal. It's not like that one panel is an accurate representation of how a fight would play out. Wolverine's done the exact same thing to the Mandarin... do you think Wolverine is skilled as the Mandarin? Would you like to bump Wolverine up to Uber? I didn't think so.

There isn't enough information in that one panel to accurately formulate any opinions. That's like watching a fight only up to the first punch lands / take down, deciding that whoever landed the first blow is obviously the faster and more skilled fighter and then turning off the fight.

Matched up against Wolverine, Black Panther has comparable strength and speed, and while he isn't quite as skilled it's not like he is a novice. Panther is in second tier for a reason, he is a great fighter. You are just acting childish, pretending as though Black Panther not being first tier has implications that he is an amateur. As though placement in Second Tier translates into him being totally outclassed and unable to land a hit on someone in first tier if his life depended on it. That's not the case. He'd take the majority from a lot of the First Tier fighters, but that doesn't make him more skilled.

Originally posted by Deadline
In the streets of posion arc DD specifically stated that he was rusty and he was also messed up because he had been in a demonic dimension.

Matt said he was off his game because he didn't have anyone to spar with while he was up state, but really how rusty could he have possibly have been? Enough to alter the outcome of the fight drastically? He was tooled pretty hard. I don't imagine the disparity in skill could have possibly been so sever that the outcome of the fight would have changed substantially. He was "I haven't trained hard in a few weeks" rusty, not "I've been in a alcohol induced coma for 5 years coma" rusty.

And Cap was drugged and mind controlled - so its not like he was bringing his A game either.

Originally posted by Deadline
Weren't you arguing that BP vs ironfist wasn't alowed because Iron Fist was mindcontrolled? Just because DD was beserk doesn't mean that DD would have fought just as well as he would have normally.

Beating a mind controlled character doesn't mean all that much, but losing to one is a different story.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
T'Challa has been played up as an A-list street level for some time now.

For example, Batman is an A-list hero but Moon Knight, Ted Grant, or Blade isn't.

Originally posted by Juk3n
T'challa > Canary without a doubt,

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The fact remains the same. Physically Black Panther is superior to Daredevil, yet Daredevil has managed to fight him on even footing time and time again. A skill advantage seems like a logical conclusion. If Panther was top tier skill material he should be able to soundly beat Daredevil, like Captain America has and that isn't something he has shown himself capable of.

Also, are we to just ignore the fact that T'Challa has quickly pwned Karnak twice as a case of "jobbing"? What about his fight with Iron Fist? He practically stalemated him(they both fell, just T'Challa first), or is that more a case of Panther's vibranium suit?

As for the Top Tier list: Cap>Panther; great. Does not Shiva/Dragon>Batman? Just because they're

I just don't see how Panther is placed in the same category as Frank Castle. 😕

Speaking of which, why is Castle second-tier? Should he not be third-tier?

Speaking of which, why is Castle second-tier? Should he not be third-tier?

Check the last few pages. He has a fair number of good showings against 1st and 2nd tiers (DD, Bullseye, etc.), but there's debate on how much of that is his toughness letting him pull through. Still, he has enough good ones to eek into 2nd.

Originally posted by Q99
Check the last few pages. He has a fair number of good showings against 1st and 2nd tiers (DD, Bullseye, etc.), but there's debate on how much of that is his toughness letting him pull through. Still, he has enough good ones to eek into 2nd.

Bruv most of his fights do not involve major damage soak. Even when it does there is still alot of skill used. I don't know why you think he eeks into second tier. Moon Knight should be second tier or he was when Punisher fought him.

This isnt a "list" its a popularity contest

Originally posted by Q99
Check the last few pages. He has a fair number of good showings against 1st and 2nd tiers (DD, Bullseye, etc.), but there's debate on how much of that is his toughness letting him pull through. Still, he has enough good ones to eek into 2nd.

Heres a couple more. The guys hes fighting is third tier and has class 10 strength.

Originally posted by Deadline
[b]Punisher vs. US.Agent

[/B]

A couple of showings against Spiderman, not all stritcly h2h but he shows good speed, agility and reflexes.

Originally posted by Deadline
[b]Punisher vs. Spiderman

Punisher makes Spiderman look like a chump

Punisher owns Spiderman and Nightcrawler
[/B]

Again not strictly h2h but it shows how agile and fast he can be. The context is that Punisher hadn't slept for weeks and was able to dodge a bloodlusted Spiderman.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He grabbed Wolverine and tossed him. Big deal. It's not like that one panel is an accurate representation of how a fight would play out. Wolverine's done the exact same thing to the Mandarin... do you think Wolverine is skilled as the Mandarin? Would you like to bump Wolverine up to Uber? I didn't think so.

There isn't enough information in that one panel to accurately formulate any opinions. That's like watching a fight only up to the first punch lands / take down, deciding that whoever landed the first blow is obviously the faster and more skilled fighter and then turning off the fight.

Why are you ignoring the other example? BP was evading Wolverine and he wasn't even taking the fight as serioulsy as wolverine. Taking that into consideration it probably means BP is faster.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Matched up against Wolverine, Black Panther has comparable strength and speed, and while he isn't quite as skilled it's not like he is a novice. Panther is in second tier for a reason, he is a great fighter. You are just acting childish, pretending as though Black Panther not being first tier has implications that he is an amateur. As though placement in Second Tier translates into him being totally outclassed and unable to land a hit on someone in first tier if his life depended on it. That's not the case. He'd take the majority from a lot of the First Tier fighters, but that doesn't make him more skilled.

Thats kinda true but it doesn't support you're argument anyway.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Matt said he was off his game because he didn't have anyone to spar with while he was up state, but really how rusty could he have possibly have been? Enough to alter the outcome of the fight drastically? He was tooled pretty hard. I don't imagine the disparity in skill could have possibly been so sever that the outcome of the fight would have changed substantially. He was "I haven't trained hard in a few weeks" rusty, not "I've been in a alcohol induced coma for 5 years coma" rusty.

And Cap was drugged and mind controlled - so its not like he was bringing his A game either.

I said.....he had been in a demonic dimension and that had affected his abilties as well. Stop selecting the parts of the post you like.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Beating a mind controlled character doesn't mean all that much, but losing to one is a different story.

BP lost against Iron Fist?

Its not good for T'challa's case that nobody has tracked his feats and that his status as "physically like Cap" are used against him. In that case Wolverine's enhanced status and HF, Daredevil's radar and Taskmaster's intuitive skill should bump them down quite a lot.

For me there are some serious double standards against T'challa. He's a PISy charactes but he's constantly depicted as a top notch martial artist.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
If you think that Panther is physically more in line with Daredevil's build than Captain America sure, that opens the door to the possibility of T'Challa being of an equal skill level; but IMO the reality of the situation is that physically Panther is more or less equal with Steve Rogers. I mean, I always got the impression that thanks to the heart shaped herb Panther was operating on the roughly the same level as Wolverine and Cap, which is slightly above standard peak human streets. He always seemed to be above peak human. /shrug

His definitely closer to Captain America than most. I don't think any street level human character is on par with Rogers though personally.

I wouldn't be surprised if T'Challa ranked somewhere between say Batman and Rogers physically.

His still an A-list Martial Artist. Arguing that he isn't because he doesn't say beat Daredevil straight up isn't real fair to him in my opinion.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
His definitely closer to Captain America than most. I don't think any street level human character is on par with Rogers though personally.

I wouldn't be surprised if T'Challa ranked somewhere between say Batman and Rogers physically.

1.As far as? Martial arts knowledge, ability, and skill, physically, or no one can take the majority against him in armed/unarmed combat?
2.Again, as far as what? Martial arts ability and skill, physical-wise, or would win in a fight more often than not.

For example, Cap may be trained in less raw martial arts styles and forms of combat, but may be better at fighting than *insert here*.

For your info Black Panther knows Skrull pressure points....