Comic Book Martial Artist Hierarchy

Originally posted by Deadline
Im not going to argue that BP is more skilled than Wolverine. You think Wolverine is more skilled than anyone. All im arguing is that maybe one aspect of skill in which BP is superior to Wolverine. As I've told you before he wasn't taking the fight as seriously as Wolverine was.

If this is another way of saying Black Panther is more agile than Wolverine, then your terminology is hindering your case. The word skill has certain connotations, especially in a thread about martial arts prowess and until reading the rest of your post I wasn't even aware that is what you were talking about.

Originally posted by Deadline
What the hell are you talking about im arguing that BP is more agile than Wolverine.

If you were arguing that Black Panther was more agile, I would have agreed with you, but what you said is:

"Why are you ignoring the other example? BP was evading Wolverine and he wasn't even taking the fight as serioulsy as wolverine. Taking that into consideration it probably means BP is faster."

Originally posted by Deadline
No he was not DD talks about physical abuse that he took right after the metaphysical abuse he took from the demonic dimesnion. Then there is link after that refering to DD 280-282. Obvoulsy the reason why he borughtb this up was to explain to the readers why he ggot his arse kicked by Cap. He wasn't a 100%

This happened after the hell arc. He got beaten up by a random thug and this happened.

http://img42.imageshack.us/f/poolve.jpg/

He also couldnt read Caps moves or Crossbones.

Same thing I said last time:

"I think you are retroactively attributing the metal/physical state of Daredevil at the end of that story arc with Daredevil at the beginning of the arc. It was the accumulative effects of Daredevil's trip to Mephistos' realm, along with his beating in Streets of Poison, and Captain America's speech about America in Daredevil 283 that led to Matt's emotional / physical break down in Daredevil 284, and not any single event. During his fight with Cap, Matt was still fine more or less."

It wasn't an explanation of why he lost to Cap, it was foreshadowing the events about to transpire in the next Daredevil story arc.

You are taking the mental/physical state of Daredevil at the end of the arch and retroactively applying it to him at the beginning... even though the events in the middle of that arc were a large part of why he was where he was at the end. Daredevil was fine at the beginning of that arc, he said he timing was off a fraction of a second, but that's it - the rest didn't happen until after his fight with Cap. Like I said, accumulative effects.

Also, Cap was injured by Bullseye in the previous issue, and was barely able to put any weight on his leg - on top of being drugged. So he wasn't 100% either and Daredevil still got tooled

DD has trouble predicting Cap's moves because of the effects of the super soldier serum - It's like Batgirl and Deathstroke. Him not being able to predict Crossbones moves did seem odd, but he can't predict Lady Bullseye either. Some characters are just slight above his level to read, I guess.

Originally posted by Deadline
Mate you referenced a fight were Captain America was fighting a beserk Daredevil im kinda sure in that instance DD was mindcontrolled.

He wasn't mind controlled but he was off his rocker. I wouldn't have referenced it if it was an isolated incident, but has it stands it is more or less inline with the rest of their encounters.

Originally posted by Deadline
Yeah but you think Wolverine top tier right. hes got a HF enhanced stats and an adamantuim skeleton... Now what?

I'm really not sure why this concept is so freaking hard to grasp. I'm not saying "Black Panther can't be top tier because he has enhanced states," I'm saying he can't be top tier because he has enhanced stats and can't beat street level MAs who don't. He is stronger, faster and more durable than Matt and wears an armored suit, and he can't beat beat him. They have stalemated every time they have fought. Despite all his advantages Black Panther stalemates Daredevil, and there are logical implications to that. If Black Panther can't beat Daredevil in a fight despite holding virtually every advantage then it stands to reason that Daredevil is notably more skilled.

Wolverine has enhanced stats but he also has legitimate wins over street level MAs that Panther just doesn't have. Wolverine has beaten Shang-Chi in a couple of panels. He's beaten Daredevil in a couple of panels. He's beaten Moon Knight in a couple of panels. He's beaten Raza Longknife (who has beaten Black Knight) in couple of panels. He's beaten Shatterstar in a couple of panels. He's beaten Lady Deathstrike in a couple of panels.

Originally posted by Deadline
Knowing you you probably took it out of context. BP knows skrull pressure points and has used them.....now what?

I largely assume that Kree / Shiar / Skrull have the same pressure points and anatomy as humans.

Originally posted by Deadline
He didnt always have vibranuim body suit. He didnt have one when he first fought Wolverine. He didnt have one when he was injured and evaded Captain America. The the body suit did not enable him to use pressure points on a super skrull.

Not always vibranium, but he did say he that his suit was body armor in one of his earlier Avengers appearances. He said something like "If it wasn't for my armor, that blow would have ended it!"

I'll see if I can find it latter today.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Not always vibranium, but he did say he that his suit was body armor in one of his earlier Avengers appearances. He said something like "If it wasn't for my armor, that blow would have ended it!"

I'll see if I can find it latter today.

Yeah and batmans said the same shit as well. Lets bump him down a tier. Don't bother finding it you are ridiculous. Its just incredible how you can just remember stuff and use it for your own agenda.

Originally posted by Deadline
Yeah and batmans said the same shit as well. Lets bump him down a tier. Don't bother finding it you are ridiculous. Its just incredible how you can just remember stuff and use it for your own agenda.

And I think I've been pretty vocal on my opinion of Batman's fighting skills and his relative placement on a list of martial artists.

I remember it all. I remember Panther using a tree as a battering ram. I remember him pushing a massive boulder the size of Ymir over a cliff. I remember him over powering lions and a polar bears. I remember Gilgamesh saying he'd never seen anyone but an Eternal move as fast as Panther. I remember him easily beating half a dozen of Wakanda's best warriors before he even ate the heart shaped herb. I remember that his eye sight is even better than Visions. I just don't see how someone who knows what Black Panther is physically capable off can argue that he is a top tier fighter when in spite of all his advantages he has been unable to beat Daredevil.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
If this is another way of saying Black Panther is more agile than Wolverine, then your terminology is hindering your case. The word skill has certain connotations, especially in a thread about martial arts prowess and until reading the rest of your post I wasn't even aware that is what you were talking about.

If you were arguing that Black Panther was more agile, I would have agreed with you, but what you said is:

"Why are you ignoring the other example? BP was evading Wolverine and he wasn't even taking the fight as serioulsy as wolverine. Taking that into consideration it probably means BP is [b]faster."

[/B]

I guess you think you're smart by taking what I said out of context. The point is that they are both enhanced in order for BP to have an edge he has has to train. Im arguing in terms of h2h skill hes better in the agility department.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Same thing I said last time:

"I think you are retroactively attributing the metal/physical state of Daredevil at the end of that story arc with Daredevil at the beginning of the arc. It was the accumulative effects of Daredevil's trip to Mephistos' realm, along with his beating in Streets of Poison, and Captain America's speech about America in Daredevil 283 that led to Matt's emotional / physical break down in Daredevil 284, and not any single event. During his fight with Cap, Matt was still fine more or less."

It wasn't an explanation of why he lost to Cap, it was foreshadowing the events about to transpire in the next Daredevil story arc.

You are taking the mental/physical state of Daredevil at the end of the arch and retroactively applying it to him at the beginning... even though the events in the middle of that arc were a large part of why he was where he was at the end. [b]Daredevil was fine at the beginning of that arc, he said he timing was off a fraction of a second, but that's it - the rest didn't happen until after his fight with Cap. Like I said, accumulative effects. [/B]

No he was not he missed a freaking flagpole. Does that sound to you like he was normal?

This pretty much clears it up. DD specifically mentions that hes not 100% and refers to the incident in the demonic dimension.

http://img413.imageshack.us/f/cantread.jpg/

Not only was he not 100 he implies that hes significantly less skilled.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Also, Cap was injured by Bullseye in the previous issue, and was barely able to put any weight on his leg - on top of being drugged. So he wasn't 100% either and Daredevil still got tooled

His leg was fine that happened the day before. He was drugged but that didn't weaken him when he fought DD.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

DD has trouble predicting Cap's moves because of the effects of the super soldier serum - It's like Batgirl and Deathstroke. Him not being able to predict Crossbones moves did seem odd, but he can't predict Lady Bullseye either. Some characters are just slight above his level to read, I guess.

Except hes never had problems reading Caps moves before. It could be damn well be argued that since he references an arc were his radar sense was playing up thats why he couldn't read it. He also said that he couldn't read Crossbones either. Crossbones is NOT peak human.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

He wasn't mind controlled but he was off his rocker. I wouldn't have referenced it if it was an isolated incident, but has it stands it is more or less inline with the rest of their encounters.

It doesn't matter. Its still double standards he wasn't in his right state of mind and just like mindcontrol it can be argued he wasn't 100%

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

I'm really not sure why this concept is so freaking hard to grasp. I'm not saying "Black Panther can't be top tier because he has enhanced states," I'm saying he can't be top tier because he has enhanced stats [b]and can't beat street level MAs who don't. He is stronger, faster and more durable than Matt and wears an armored suit, and he can't beat beat him. They have stalemated every time they have fought. Despite all his advantages Black Panther stalemates Daredevil, and there are logical implications to that. If Black Panther can't beat Daredevil in a fight despite holding virtually every advantage then it stands to reason that Daredevil is notably more skilled.
[/B]

Because its crap. Captain America wasn't able to get an advantage over DD when he wasn't in his right state of mind lets bump him down.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Wolverine has enhanced stats but he also has legitimate wins over street level MAs that Panther just doesn't have. Wolverine has beaten Shang-Chi in a couple of panels. He's beaten Daredevil in a couple of panels. He's beaten Moon Knight in a couple of panels. He's beaten Raza Longknife (who has beaten Black Knight) in couple of panels. He's beaten Shatterstar in a couple of panels. He's beaten Lady Deathstrike in a couple of panels.

Moon Knight isn't even top tier. Hes also been taken out by DD, and DD held his own against Wolverine and a group of hand ninjas. Hes also been beaten by Punisher.

No doubt you're going to use your self-serving logic to explain why these feats are not valid.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

I largely assume that Kree / Shiar / Skrull have the same pressure points and anatomy as humans.

Are you shitting me??????!!!! Kree and Shair could pass for human. Are you serioulsy ****ing telling me that a green skineed alien with pointy ears and a funny chin that has the ability to shapeshift anatomy isn't going to vary significantly from a humans?

Does the fact that he used in a combat against a super skrull count for anything? I giuess were going to assume it was useless canon fodder despite the fact lots of them have been shown to be formidable.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
And I think I've been pretty vocal on my opinion of Batman's fighting skills and his relative placement on a list of martial artists.

I remember it all. I remember Panther using a tree as a battering ram. I remember him pushing a massive boulder the size of Ymir over a cliff. I remember him over powering lions and a polar bears. I remember Gilgamesh saying he'd never seen anyone but an Eternal move as fast as Panther. I remember him easily beating half a dozen of Wakanda's best warriors before he even ate the heart shaped herb. I remember that his eye sight is even better than Visions. I just don't see how someone who knows what Black Panther is physically capable off can argue that he is a top tier fighter when in spite of all his advantages he has been unable to beat Daredevil.

Cap is peak human and his suit is so strong that its withstood a high caliber machine gun. Its incredible alot of those feats Cap could have done as well. None of that means **** all.

Cap hasn't beaten DD either. facepalm

Originally posted by Q99
I don't think any of them have shown the martial arts skills of DC/Marvel second tiers. There's less over-the-topness in the skill area, what superhuman stuff there is is focused on the superhuman attributes.

Eh, We have Spike being able to identify Illyria's fighting styles and naming them simply from sparring, and in the comics a completely human Angel has been kicking aroung owning demons, Spike and a vampire Gunn through skill and awesomeness alone.

Hell, the whole shebang about the Vamps is that they're nowhere near as strong as slayers, but Spike and Angel still give them hell through sheer skill and experience.

Originally posted by Deadline

Cap hasn't beaten DD either. facepalm

actually he has... 🙁

Originally posted by Warlord
actually he has... 🙁

Not without circumstances.

it was a straight up fight IIRC

Originally posted by Warlord
it was a straight up fight IIRC

Which example what issue, when? Scans?

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Eh, We have Spike being able to identify Illyria's fighting styles and naming them simply from sparring, and in the comics a completely human Angel has been kicking aroung owning demons, Spike and a vampire Gunn through skill and awesomeness alone.

Hell, the whole shebang about the Vamps is that they're nowhere near as strong as slayers, but Spike and Angel still give them hell through sheer skill and experience.

Knowing fighting styles and being able to fight people stronger than you is hardly enough for tier-two IMO, though.

DC/Marvel martial artists in the upper tiers are seriously unrealistic in what they can pull off. Even tier 3s can take out 10x their number of trained fighters on a good day and fairly often fight metas.

Originally posted by Deadline
Which example what issue, when? Scans?

DD 45 maybe?
not sure...I would search for it once I'm at home if u want

Originally posted by Warlord
DD 45 maybe?
not sure...I would search for it once I'm at home if u want

What volume? Not that bothered, if you like.

vol 1...definitely one of his first books...I'll find it some time later

Originally posted by Q99
Knowing fighting styles and being able to fight people stronger than you is hardly enough for tier-two IMO, though.

DC/Marvel martial artists in the upper tiers are seriously unrealistic in what they can pull off. Even tier 3s can take out 10x their number of trained fighters on a good day and fairly often fight metas.

Gunn fills all those requirements for tier 3 even when he's a normal human, and Angel managed to beat him while he was amped, and Angel was depowered. Connor and Spike have both acknowledged that Angel is pretty much the baddest mother in the buffyverse when push comes to shove.

Spike may deserve to be at the very pinnacle of tier 3, but Angel is definetly second tier IMO.

not sure why everyone is still arguing, place a vote,

many of the characters in the top tier win for their extra abilities and such, not sure why BP having extra abilities calls him into question, especially when the other contender for the fight doesn't have as many feats as him, and has an outright mutant ability she uses to enhance herself.

I'd like to ask what has psylocke done to deserve it more than t'challa?

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Gunn fills all those requirements for tier 3 even when he's a normal human, and Angel managed to beat him while he was amped, and Angel was depowered. Connor and Spike have both acknowledged that Angel is pretty much the baddest mother in the buffyverse when push comes to shove.

Spike may deserve to be at the very pinnacle of tier 3, but Angel is definetly second tier IMO.

Mm, fair enough, that does make sense.

Originally posted by Trackz
not sure why everyone is still arguing, place a vote,

many of the characters in the top tier win for their extra abilities and such, not sure why BP having extra abilities calls him into question, especially when the other contender for the fight doesn't have as many feats as him, and has an outright mutant ability she uses to enhance herself.

I'd like to ask what has psylocke done to deserve it more than t'challa?

me too, what has she demonstrated on panel in terms of MA application that puts her a whole tier above T'Challa?

Originally posted by Philosophía
You've actually reached the point where you stick the fingers in your ears and do the trollish dance? That's quite something.

Like I said, Thor did absolutley nothing impressive concerning what is discussed -- which is his actual combat skill. He -- and I mean this quite literally -- just ran along and brawled/smashed shit with his hammer -- like I've already said, and he was even overwhelmed until Cap saved him. (and don't worry Alfheim, I caught that edit. The irony made me smile).

Originally posted by Philosophía
If you find that more impressive than being able to use pressure points to paralyze or instantly render unconscious, or, the example I already used, where Superman outfought a master martial artist in Batman's body, then that's fine. Stupid, but fine.

You're asking me what leads me to believe that Superman has become better from when he hadn't even joined the Justice League, when he has not only accumulated massive amount of experience, including constant fighting for 1000 years, but also underwent training that he even had whole arcs dedicated to and which have visibly increased his combat skill, repeatedly being brought up and showed when he uses pressure strikes capable of paralysis and instant knockouts?

That "massive amount of experience" puts him on par with any average Asgardians/Olympians... no wait... it wouldn't even do that because those guys have been fighting in wars for several thousands of years. And Thor and Ares are hardly "average Asgardian/Olympians. They're the best fighters among those pantheons. And you're comparing someone who can use pressure points on schnooks or jobbers but clearly can't keep up in a standard street-fight firefight melee with people like Thor, Doom and Ares? Seriously?

Originally posted by Philosophía
This should be a board meme. "Surprise buttsecks" should be replaced with "Surprise skill showing!". 😂

I'll repeat what I already said:

"The "everybody is underestimating him, that's why he looks skilled using pressure points" is sad for plenty of reasons, one of them being the fact that being able to use pressure points to the point where you can paralyze or render unconscious your opponent with just one itself denotes great skill. Another fact is that, like already pointed out, he has been trained by highly skilled fighters, justifying this level of skill, in one instance it even being stated why he is that good. (the fight against the kryptonian soldier)"

Ah, speaking of which, did I mention the fact that when he out-fought the master martial artist King Cobra, while the latter was in Batman's body, it was before he underwent Mongul's training and started consistently showing combat skill and using pressure points? Well, I did now.