-I should note that movement of either Canary or Drakon down without replacement will simply result in a vacant DC top tier slot.
-Ares (DC) will be entered into the hierarchy at second, if that proposal remains unopposed, at the next update.
-Can people weigh in on the huge list below, before we move onto any new additions or changes for a bit? Particularly the Old Proposed Changes.
-OmegaV I've noted the suggestions from page 7, and Harley, but haven't added them to this list yet since it's too long as it is.
Proposed Additions' Entry Points
Darkseid to second tier: 1 [Gecko4lif] /
Darkseid to fourth tier: 1 [Omega] /
Nemesis (Charis Adrastea) to second tier: 1 [Style] /
Kanto to second tier: 2 [Omega, comicfan] /
Mera to third: 1 [Omega] / 1 [comicfan]
Tombstone to fourth: 1 [Omega] /
Caiera to third: 1 [Omega] /
Spider-Man to fourth: 1 [Omega] /
Juggernaut to fourth: 1 [Omega] /
Faora to second:1 [Omega] /
Lex Luthor to fourth: 1 [Omega] /
Ares (DC) to second: 3 [Omega, Q99, comicfan] /
Catman to second?: 1 [srank] /
Savant (BoP) to second: 2 [Pr, Q99] /
Old Proposed Changes
Jubilee to third: 3 [Cresh, Q99, Konton] / 4 [llag, Nataku, Blanket, Style]
Kingpin to second: 5 [V, jrod, srank, capt, Accel] / 6 [Soljer, llag, Macoy, Nataku, Blanket, Style]
Moon Knight to second: 4 [llagrok, Fake McCoy, Alfheim, Mungi] / 4 [Soljer, capt, endrict, Blanket]
Midnighter to second: 2 [Soljer, Blanket] / 3 [Style, endrict, srank]
Blade to second: 4 [snoop, endrict, Darth Martin, Blanket] / 4 [Style, llagrok, capt, srank]
New Proposed Changes
Constantine Drakon to second: 1 [Q99] / 1 [srank]
or Drakon to uber: 1 [Q99] /
Tim Drake to second: 2 [Pr, MM] / 1 [Konton]
Alpha to second: 1 [Q99] /
Mad Dog Cain to second: 1 [Q99] /
Gamora to uber: 6 [Omega, Konton, Boubonmaster, Q99, jalek, srank?] / 4 [ODG, Blanket, Smurph, SuperiorTech]
Black Canary to second: 2 [Omega, Pr] / 2 [srank, Konton]
Aquaman to third: 2 [Omega, comicfan] /
Merlyn (DC) to third: 1 [comicfan] /
Ares (Marvel) to second: 2 [ODG, comicfan] /
Mister Terrific to second: 2 [Omega, comicfan] /
Hercules to second: 1 [comicfan] /
Iron Fist to uber: 2 [ODG, dmills] / 3? [srank, Q99, jalek?]
Twelve Brothers to third: 1 [Q99] /
Originally posted by Q99That could just put him among or at the top of the top tiers. Even with his speed I can still see Shiva or Cass, who aren't really slouches in speed either, fighting him evenly.
Btw, anyone have an opinion on my "Bump Drakon up" suggestion?If everyone thinks it's not powers, then he was blitzing the heck out of a top tier *who had assistance* without chi or powers.
Luthor to fourth strikes me as fine, as does Mr. Terrific to second.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
That could just put him among or at the top of the top tiers. Even with his speed I can still see Shiva or Cass, who aren't really slouches in speed either, fighting him evenly.
But Drakon fought Connor, a top-tier, multiple times and flat-out overwhelmed him. Connor can keep up with both Shiva and Cass. Loses, sure, but gives a real fight and is not overwhelmed by their speed.
I could see Shiva or Cass getting wins due to cunning and experience letting them lay 'traps', but if they tried to take him on head-on I'm pretty sure they'd have the same speed difference problem and lose, and they're some of the best top-tiers out there.
His demonstrated level was way above Connor, most of the fight was flat-out casual for him. That's not just slightly higher, that's another tier.
@Jalek,
Ok look at who's in the top tier. Nearly all of them are peak humans with exceptional skills. Now look at the uber tier, all of them have exceptional skill but they also have some sort of power supplementing their skills be it chi, telepathy or whatever. But are any of them truly more "skilled" in pure h2h then the top tier people? No, but their skill based powers make them uber because they've attained that level with training and what not. It puts them on another level.
Looking at both lists, one name jumps out clear as day, Iron Fist. His pure skills alone put him in the top tier, add in his skill based power and it makes him euber.Being honest, is there even one person on that list that current Iron Fist wouldn't beat soundly on kmc? The was a Iron Fist vs taskmaster thread where iirc every single person picked Iron Fist to win. I rekon if you picked any name from the top tier list in a vs battle they'd all lose to Iron Fist. Hell he's already beaten a few of the people on that list already without his current chi level.
thats what im saying, if we are allowing his chi powers to be taken in account then yes hes uber. if not top tier. I just have been confused on the decision on that aspect of him. Since people seem to view it differently
Also i agree on spider-man to fourth.
and by Caiera do u mean hulk's wife? or some other character
Originally posted by jalek moye
thats what im saying, if we are allowing his chi powers to be taken in account then yes hes uber. if not top tier. I just have been confused on the decision on that aspect of him. Since people seem to view it differently
Yea, that's where I'm at too, it's all just on how we count it.
Spider-Man will be added to fourth then in the next update, unless there's any objection.
Also I'll begin tallying whether people want to consider skill-based power. So could people give a definitive yes or no to this.
Perhaps we can suspend voting on the changes for now, since this should probably be agreed upon before any further voting presumably since it affects the movement of several characters.
Originally posted by marwash22
I'm for...moving Blade to, 2nd tier
moving Iron Fist to, uberhow much of DareDevil's skill can be attributed to his powers? I don't see Daredevil being better than Agent X or Black Panther.
A little, but he's clearly an awesome fighter. Even without radar sense (assuming he had working eyes instead) he'd still be solidly top tier.
BP's not in the top tiers mostly due to lack of slots.
can i propose moving Wonder Woman down to third tier?
What has she mastered? I know she's highly regarded among amazons, but what is that really? Her skill is comparable to likes of Huntress, not Echo. There is literally no one in that 2nd group she could beat in a h2h fight... without her powers.
On the subject, isn't Echo theoretically as skilled or more skilled than the best person she has ever seen fight? i think she should be in the top tier, but i won't propose that without some other opinions.
Originally posted by marwash22
can i propose moving Wonder Woman down to third tier?What has she mastered? I know she's highly regarded among amazons, but what is that really?
A thousands-of-years warrior tradition with a heavy emphasis on intense sparing, meaning she grew up fighting regularly against people with tons of practical combat experience? Plus she brushed it up with training heavily with modern martial artists and learning their moves. She trains with Batman all the time, Black Canary often (and Dinah goes to her for teaching), and has even brought up criminal martial artists from prison to help advise her on her technique, like Lady Shiva.
She's highly regarded by some pretty big name martial artists when it comes to skill alone.
Her skill is comparable to likes of Huntress, not Echo. There is literally no one in that 2nd group she could beat in a h2h fight... without her powers.
Hah, no offense to Helena, but Diana would beat her 🙂 Diana can definitely take on the second tiers.
Ok, let's take into account the thousand years of warrior tradition and heavy sparring since childhood. When that training is basically nothing more than brawling, with a little grappling and no real technique involved, how great are you really? My point is that, WW's skills as a fighter are greatly inflated, mostly due to her super strength, speed and stamina. Take her powers away and in a fight, i highly doubt that she would be able to compete with the second tier fighters.
Also, being trained by multiple, highly skilled martial arts masters, does not make you, a master. If we're using that logic, Dick Grayson needs to be bumped up to top tier 'cause no one has had better teachers than him; and there is no way WW should be in the same class as him. those bracelets cant deflect fists.
I guess when i think "Master martial artist", i think of someone you would want to take lessons from and brawling is not a martial art.
Originally posted by marwash22
Ok, let's take into account the thousand years of warrior tradition and heavy sparring since childhood. When that training is basically nothing more than brawling, with a little grappling and no real technique involved, how great are you really?
Uh, it has grappling (in the early WW comics there was *tons* of grappling, infamously so, and she does use grappling in fights), and it has lots of technique. Arms and unarmed, striking and grappling. It's pretty well-rounded.
My point is that, WW's skills as a fighter are greatly inflated, mostly due to her super strength, speed and stamina. Take her powers away and in a fight, i highly doubt that she would be able to compete with the second tier fighters.
Her *technique* is noted as superb by top-tiers, and she's also spent significant time as a non-powered hero.
Also, being trained by multiple, highly skilled martial arts masters, does not make you, a master.
No, but she's got a lot else to show she's good, and those masters take advice from her too.
and there is no way WW should be in the same class as him. those bracelets cant deflect fists.
Technically they can, but she can also use all the other ways of handling a punch a MA uses too.
I guess when i think "Master martial artist", i think of someone you would want to take lessons from and brawling is not a martial art.
I really get the impression you're just not familiar with her fighting. To quote Black Canary: "But you [Diana] hit exactly where you know it'll do the most damage. It's... ... it's like watching a ballet. With compound fractures!"
There's one top tier who's noted as not a brawler more than any other, and that's Wonder Woman.