Originally posted by Autokrat
Hmm, so another aid boat is on its way. I wonder what they think is going to happen.All PR?
I would imagine so, Israel will probably let it go by looking like big heroes to get people to see them in a more positive light.
I really hate blaming everything on Israel, It isn't necessarily their fault the idiots who just crafted a nation in the middle of a nation weren't thinking long-term or for any humanitarian reason.
But on the other hand, they have become a very oppressive, brutal, and militaristic regime.
You are talking about an "election" of Hamas. Again, more people in Palestine support the PLO.
And as for stepping in the major direction, how the hell is removing your own citizens from an area you are going to bombard and send troops to occupy and oppress a step in the right direction?
Originally posted by inimalistthat being said, it is Israel who currently refuses to negotiate with Hamas, not vice versa
Bit difficult to negotiate with a group who's central guiding charter includes the following nuggets.
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
Then, of course, there is choice quotes from as recent as 2008 such as
"suffering by fire is the Jews' destiny in this world and the next."
from Hamas legislators.
yes, but they are willing to negotiate EDIT: and they were democratically elected as the leaders of Palestine, whether Isreal or the West wants that to be so.
not to get dragged even further into this, in the most recent cease fire, all Hamas fighters stopped launching rockets, and in a recent kidnapping done by another Gaza militant group, Hamas assisted Turkey (iirc) in rescuing him.
And as for stepping in the major direction, how the hell is removing your own citizens from an area you are going to bombard and send troops to occupy and oppress a step in the right direction?
Where do you get this stuff?
Israel demolished the houses before they left...The 1st attacks after the withdrawal were actually rockets fired FROM the areas that Israel had left against Israeli citizens...And as far as i'm aware...none of the 21 settlements in the unilateral disengagement plan have since been re-occupied by Israeli troops...Unless you have information to the contrary.
Originally posted by inimalist
yes, but they are willing to negotiate EDIT: and they were democratically elected as the leaders of Palestine, whether Isreal or the West wants that to be so.not to get dragged even further into this, in the most recent cease fire, all Hamas fighters stopped launching rockets, and in a recent kidnapping done by another Gaza militant group, Hamas assisted Turkey (iirc) in rescuing him.
Hamas only said it was willing to negotiate a ceasefire...Not the stance of it's charter that rules out an Israeli state.
We're going round in circles though...Ironically.
Originally posted by inimalist
nothing ironic about itsort of how these conversations tend to go
Representative(ness) of the topic being discussed is where the irony lies.
I did like a journalist/ex politician on the UK's question time programme last night when he was asked about the whole flotilla situation and he said that now he was retired and no longer had to worry about not offending anyone he said that he was quite frankly bored with the entire middle east...That he didn't care...That the Israel/Palestine situation had absolutely no bearing on the UK whatsoever and that the UK no longer had any vested interest in the region either politically or economically and so that we should just abandon the region to it's fate and let them fight it out.
Quite a brave thing to say...Also extremely true.
Why do people give a shit about Israel and Palestine nowadays? Is it now merely because the level of power and influence that Jewish people have in the US government that forces the US and thus everyone else into taking an interest?...It's not like there's any real advantage to the world of one side or the other being in control of that tiny patch of land...There's no huge economically beneficial resources to be won or lost in the region.
Is it simply the Jewish reaction to potential threats to their culture brought on by a deeply embedded post holocaust...blah blah
This is boring.
Originally posted by jaden101
Representative(ness) of the topic being discussed is where the irony lies.I did like a journalist/ex politician on the UK's question time programme last night when he was asked about the whole flotilla situation and he said that now he was retired and no longer had to worry about not offending anyone he said that he was quite frankly bored with the entire middle east...That he didn't care...That the Israel/Palestine situation had absolutely no bearing on the UK whatsoever and that the UK no longer had any vested interest in the region either politically or economically and so that we should just abandon the region to it's fate and let them fight it out.
Quite a brave thing to say...Also extremely true.
Why do people give a shit about Israel and Palestine nowadays? Is it now merely because the level of power and influence that Jewish people have in the US government that forces the US and thus everyone else into taking an interest?...It's not like there's any real advantage to the world of one side or the other being in control of that tiny patch of land...There's no huge economically beneficial resources to be won or lost in the region.
Is it simply the Jewish reaction to potential threats to their culture brought on by a deeply embedded post holocaust...blah blah
This is boring.
Because it was the UK who started this entire mess in the first place. How dare he say a stupid thing like that. But that is a typical capitalist thing to say, if they don't see any means of money making in an area they won't go over there.
He's "bored" with the horrors those people have to endure day in day out due to western expansion and influence. That's a rather sick thing to say.
Originally posted by jaden101
Representative(ness) of the topic being discussed is where the irony lies.I did like a journalist/ex politician on the UK's question time programme last night when he was asked about the whole flotilla situation and he said that now he was retired and no longer had to worry about not offending anyone he said that he was quite frankly bored with the entire middle east...That he didn't care...That the Israel/Palestine situation had absolutely no bearing on the UK whatsoever and that the UK no longer had any vested interest in the region either politically or economically and so that we should just abandon the region to it's fate and let them fight it out.
Quite a brave thing to say...Also extremely true.
Why do people give a shit about Israel and Palestine nowadays? Is it now merely because the level of power and influence that Jewish people have in the US government that forces the US and thus everyone else into taking an interest?...It's not like there's any real advantage to the world of one side or the other being in control of that tiny patch of land...There's no huge economically beneficial resources to be won or lost in the region.
Is it simply the Jewish reaction to potential threats to their culture brought on by a deeply embedded post holocaust...blah blah
This is boring.
ya, I generally agree
international involvement in the issue has pretty much made it a non-starter. I don't see why my government should be involved, unless we were asked specifically to be mediators.
Don't get me wrong, I think we should impose morally based sanctions on Israel, totally cut them off, but seriously, they need to realize that its not going to be the rest of the world that settles anything and the leaders from both sides need to be forced to the table. A year without military support from the West and we will see how comfortable Israel is surrounded by nations it refuses to talk to.
EDIT: though ya, like I tried to say above, its such a tired issue. I actually think Christopher Hitchens has the best take on it. To anybody with any sense at all, the solution is blindingly simple. But there are these intransigent extremeists on both sides, who do not represent the popular opinion in either nation, who are just not willing to negotiate or to settle anything. This stupid radicalized theocratic minorities wont give up some fued that was written in some book, so now the world has to get involved in a battle where both sides essentially use kindergarden logic.
Originally posted by inimalistBut there are these intransigent extremeists on both sides, who do not represent the popular opinion in either nation, who are just not willing to negotiate or to settle anything. This stupid radicalized theocratic minorities wont give up some fued that was written in some book, so now the world has to get involved in a battle where both sides essentially use kindergarden logic.
The biggest problem in this situation is that the extremists on either side wield large influence over the population...Regardless if they are in a minority.
If both sides took steps to marginalize the extreme opinion makers then perhaps that would make a difference. Until that happens then the hate spouters on each side will still wield a disproportionate amount of power.
Because it was the UK who started this entire mess in the first place. How dare he say a stupid thing like that. But that is a typical capitalist thing to say, if they don't see any means of money making in an area they won't go over there.
You're missing the point...There IS NO money to be made...Yet still the west gets involved in the middle east where it can not do anything constructive anyway. Yet here is two of the biggest capitalist nations in the world (the US and UK) that couldn't be more involved in the situation.
Originally posted by Liberator
Because it was the UK who started this entire mess in the first place. How dare he say a stupid thing like that. But that is a typical capitalist thing to say, if they don't see any means of money making in an area they won't go over there.He's "bored" with the horrors those people have to endure day in day out due to western expansion and influence. That's a rather sick thing to say.
He has a point though. There has to be a point when former colonies stop moping around and blaming everything on their former oppressors who left 50 or even a hundred years ago. You figure their pride would kick in and they'd say "Ok we're adults, let's get our shit together".
the amount of dust in the eyes of otherwise generally reasonable people on kmc about israel is mindboggling. wake up people. israel is a terrorist, colonial, zionist, messainic state with no reguard for humanity on the whole. this "israel's right to protect itself" bullshit has been around long enough for even reasonably intelligent people to see through.
the "problem" isnt on BOTH sides, or on extremists on BOTH sides{sumthing people who want to consider themselves "smart" seem to come up with} the problem is almost exclusively on israel's forte, a nation that illegally occupies palestenian land by international LAW to this day and continues to expand in flagrant violation of international and humanitarian law. a nation that keeps prisoner the popultions of the west bank and gaza in concentration camp like positions. a nation that has devestated lebonan/jordanese infrastructure, a nation that uses illegal war weapons and techniques in the open like white phosphorus and targetting civilians and a nation with a stockpile of nuclear weapons.
hamas and parties like it are REACTIONARY as a result of these conditions and under international law every occupied people have a right to fight against their occupiers. so the question of whether the palestenian people wanna destroy israel is not even a part of the issue even if they do, for those who support israel, lest they become hypocrites. {doesnt make hamas praiseworthy, just makes them currently above any critiques by the supporters of israel, not forgetting that after whats been done to palestenian society, no1 can blame them for wanting to destroy israel}.
^^^ I know this is a sensitive issue for you, but realize that both sides have guilt and both sides will have to work together to achieve peace.
Your hyperbole, where stated, is no more helpful than Israels.
The problem is indeed on both sides, though, I think its very clear that Israel is oppressive and shares the majority of the current blame.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
the amount of dust in the eyes of otherwise generally reasonable people on kmc about israel is mindboggling. wake up people. israel is a terrorist, colonial, zionist, messainic state with no reguard for humanity on the whole. this "israel's right to protect itself" bullshit has been around long enough for even reasonably intelligent people to see through.
Spot on 😱
and the main problem is the media brainwashing so everyone who apposes Isreal is portrayed as a devil like terrorist nut.
A prime example of this is this video, ok Galloway is also a bit of an odd person but this shows how biast the news is
Originally posted by leonheartmm
YouTube videothe amount of dust in the eyes of otherwise generally reasonable people on kmc about israel is mindboggling. wake up people. israel is a terrorist, colonial, zionist, messainic state with no reguard for humanity on the whole. this "israel's right to protect itself" bullshit has been around long enough for even reasonably intelligent people to see through.
the "problem" isnt on BOTH sides, or on extremists on BOTH sides{sumthing people who want to consider themselves "smart" seem to come up with} the problem is almost exclusively on israel's forte, a nation that illegally occupies palestenian land by international LAW to this day and continues to expand in flagrant violation of international and humanitarian law. a nation that keeps prisoner the popultions of the west bank and gaza in concentration camp like positions. a nation that has devestated lebonan/jordanese infrastructure, a nation that uses illegal war weapons and techniques in the open like white phosphorus and targetting civilians and a nation with a stockpile of nuclear weapons.
hamas and parties like it are REACTIONARY as a result of these conditions and under international law every occupied people have a right to fight against their occupiers. so the question of whether the palestenian people wanna destroy israel is not even a part of the issue even if they do, for those who support israel, lest they become hypocrites. {doesnt make hamas praiseworthy, just makes them currently above any critiques by the supporters of israel, not forgetting that after whats been done to palestenian society, no1 can blame them for wanting to destroy israel}.
Hamas is above the critique of supporters of Israel?...What planet are you living on?
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2004/09/01/international/MIDEAST650.jpg
http://www.pmo.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/51F7DE31-A9E4-418B-88A8-10D0E1CF5A5A/0/6008123567.jpg
Yep...Definitely above criticism eh?
Hamas is not really working for the good of Palestine but the fact that Israel does keep the Palestinian people in concentration camp like conditions shouldn't really surprise anyone that a group like that would form.
People seem surprised that Hamas does what they do, but they're people pushed to the brink, they're fighting for every last bit of freedom they got. I'm not trying to glorify all the acts of Hamas, but you have to see it from their point of view.
It reminds me of the IRA's bombing campaign, the majority of Ireland didn't want it to occur but it happened anyways due to a few extremists who felt pushed to the brink.
If Israel hadn't taken it upon themselves to butcher these Palestinians in something reminisicant of the Holocaust, groups like Hamas wouldn't form and do what they do.
