infinity vs power gem vs pheonix

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Que?

I believe it was Excalibur #25, the issue where Galactus came looking to separate the PF from Rachel Summers because he deemed it a threat.

Long story short, she willingly goes into his machine. As it's being separated from Rachel all the stars in the universe begin winking out of existence.

Death states that in his folly Galactus is doing the very thing he feared the Phoenix would do. Galactus acknowledges that the PF can indeed destroy "all that is". Death says, "Yes, and from that destruction, bring about new life. But you're meddling with tha and breaking the cosmic cycle."

This happened in the mainstream universe, 616.

Originally posted by zopzop
I believe it was Excalibur #25, the issue where Galactus came looking to separate the PF from Rachel Summers because he deemed it a threat.

Long story short, she willingly goes into his machine. As it's being separated from Rachel all the stars in the universe begin winking out of existence.

Death states that in his folly Galactus is doing the very thing he feared the Phoenix would do. Galactus acknowledges that the PF can indeed destroy "all that is". Death says, "Yes, and from that destruction, bring about new life. But you're meddling with tha and breaking the cosmic cycle."

This happened in the mainstream universe, 616.

Phoenix Force would also have died along with the universe.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Phoenix Force would also have died along with the universe.

No, cos the Phoenix Force cannot die, it is pure life itself. It can only go from one state to another, it is by cannon totally indestructible.

Galactus' machine as stated in the issue and in the handbooks that refer to the issue would have torn the Force out of Rachel returning the portion of the Force that resided in Rachel back to the cosmos.

This process would have killed Phoenix(Rachel), but not the Force.

The gathered cosmics Roma, Death and the Watcher tell Galactus to watch how the stars fade as he tries to extract the Force from Rachel. They tell him yes the Phoenix can destroy the cosmos, but it can also rebirth it. They state that Phoenix and the Force are bound by nature so to destroy that bond was against the natural order. Hence the stars fading. They said that without the Phoenix Force there would be nothing but a lifeless void.

Never was the Force under any threat, only the Phoenix, the host.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Phoenix Force would also have died along with the universe.

And what exactly does "death" mean to the PF? It's very symbolism is REBIRTH from destruction.

Originally posted by zopzop
I believe it was Excalibur #25, the issue where Galactus came looking to separate the PF from Rachel Summers because he deemed it a threat.

Long story short, she willingly goes into his machine. As it's being separated from Rachel all the stars in the universe begin winking out of existence.

Death states that in his folly Galactus is doing the very thing he feared the Phoenix would do. Galactus acknowledges that the PF can indeed destroy "all that is". Death says, "Yes, and from that destruction, bring about new life. But you're meddling with tha and breaking the cosmic cycle."

This happened in the mainstream universe, 616.

He acknowledged that she can destroy a cosmos. It's also stated in that same page that she's one of the primal forces of the universe. What do you think Eternity and Infinity are? She's part of the natural order like Galactus, not above it. If anything, both Eternity and Infinity are regarded the top of the cosmic hierarchy and not Phoenix. Even with Excalibur, that's an acknowledgement she could destroy the cosmos not that the Phoenix Force has ever done so. And if we go by that and not actual feats, Galactus also possessed the power to destroy both the 616 and Negative Zone even after head been depleted of power in Annihilation. So you might as well add Phoenix to that list of people who never destroyed a universe in the mainstream universe. In that same issue, Galactus would've survive the destruction of the universe but acknowledges he'd starve without life to feast upon. Galactus is no Infinity, neither is Phoenix.

Originally posted by zopzop
And what exactly does "death" mean to the PF? It's very symbolism is REBIRTH from destruction.

Not according to you and Death. Galactus would kill her permanently and break the eternal pattern.

Death says, "Yes, and from that destruction, bring about new life. But you're meddling with tha and breaking the cosmic cycle."

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No, cos the Phoenix Force cannot die, it is pure life itself. It can only go from one state to another, it is by cannon totally indestructible.

Galactus' machine as stated in the issue and in the handbooks that refer to the issue would have torn the Force out of Rachel returning the portion of the Force that resided in Rachel back to the cosmos.

This process would have killed Phoenix(Rachel), but not the Force.

The gathered cosmics Roma, Death and the Watcher tell Galactus to watch how the stars fade as he tries to extract the Force from Rachel. They tell him yes the Phoenix can destroy the cosmos, but it can also rebirth it. They state that Phoenix and the Force are bound by nature so to destroy that bond was against the natural order. Hence the stars fading. They said that without the Phoenix Force there would be nothing but a lifeless void.

Never was the Force under any threat, only the Phoenix, the host.

Roma said that the Phoenix could not be seperated. Yet in her bio I think, it was said that she warned Galactus not to slay/eat/kill Phoenix II.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
He acknowledged that she can destroy a cosmos. It's also stated in that same page that she's one of the primal forces of the universe. What do you think Eternity and Infinity are? She's part of the natural order like Galactus, not above it. If anything, both Eternity and Infinity are regarded the top of the cosmic hierarchy and not Phoenix. Even with Excalibur, that's an acknowledgement she could destroy the cosmos not that the Phoenix Force has ever done so. And if we go by that and not actual feats, Galactus also possessed the power to destroy both the 616 and Negative Zone even after head been depleted of power in Annihilation. So you might as well add Phoenix to that list of people who never destroyed a universe in the mainstream universe. In that same issue, Galactus would've survive the destruction of the universe but acknowledges he'd starve without life to feast upon. Galactus is no Infinity, neither is Phoenix.

Quick question, by cosmos we mean the universe and everything in it right? Doesn't that include Eternity/Infinity and all the other abstracts? Not only can it destroy the cosmos it can RECREATE it.

And we have yet to see anyone/anywhere destroying a universe in Marvel without a plot device (HotI/UN).

Not according to you and Death. Galactus would kill her permanently and break the eternal pattern.
[b]
Death says, "Yes, and from that destruction, bring about new life. But you're meddling with tha and breaking the cosmic cycle."

By meddling with the PF and it's host (in which the host WILLINGLY subjected itself to Galactus' machine) who knows what havok Galactus was wrecking on the universe.

Originally posted by zopzop
Quick question, by cosmos we mean the universe and everything in it right? Doesn't that include Eternity/Infinity and all the other abstracts? Not only can it destroy the cosmos it can RECREATE it.

And we have yet to see anyone/anywhere destroying a universe in Marvel without a plot device (HotI/UN).

It means universe. But destroying the universe doesn't mean all abstracts are destroyed. Death and Oblivion would still exist. She may not gain more souls but those souls that have died are still under her domain. Oblivion is the void, he isn't dying either.

So what if it can recreate? That's it's role. It sparks and brings life back. But as the universe expands, time and space also expands, chaos and order comes into being. It sparks what's been there, it's not the TOAA/Creator y'know? It merely serves as a spark the reignites the universe after it's destruction. It's not the power of everything in the universe. In fact, the destruction of the universe happens when humanity reaches it's peak potential, able to replace the abstracts. That's all planned by the abstracts because it's the natural order. The Celestials carry out that mandate by planting the seeds of evolution into man, the ability to reach abstract level when the universe comes to an end. X-Men Forever tries to tie everything and explain Galan becoming Galactus. The Phoenix Force is part of the natural order and seems to end the universe when in time as part of the natural order. It has the power to do it but so does Eternity, Galactus, Infinity, and many others. Difference is, this seems to be Phoenix' job, and not the others that's all. She's not more powerful than them.

By meddling with the PF and it's host (in which the host WILLINGLY subjected itself to Galactus' machine) who knows what havok Galactus was wrecking on the universe.

?Who knows what? Apparently Death does. That's why you quoted him/her saying that Galactus would end the natural cycle of destruction and rebirth if he destroyed the Phoenix. Willing or not, Phoenix would be killed by Galactus permanently.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The infinity gems by current continuity are artifacts possessing universal scale power that tap into the their native universes Big Bang.

The gems separately are not universal powers, from what I know.

But what's this about tapping into the Big Bang? They draw power from Nemesis.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Roma said that the Phoenix could not be seperated. Yet in her bio I think, it was said that she warned Galactus not to slay/eat/kill Phoenix II.

True. Thats what i said Roma said that it was against the natural order to separate the Force from Phoenix (Rachel) and in support of this as Galactus was doing so the stars were fading.

It was only ever Phoenix, (Rachel) that was in danger, not the Force itself 🙂

Originally posted by Cubey
The gems separately are not universal powers, from what I know.

But what's this about tapping into the Big Bang? They draw power from Nemesis.

Not by current continuity.

Adam Warlock longtime gem wielder and onetime wielder of the Infinity Gauntlet and therefore a very reputable source said that the true source of the gems powers was the Big Bang-

and the Champion longtime wielder of the Power Gems bio supported this by making reference to the gems drawing power from the Big Bang-

these are the most recent references to the Infinity Gems power source in current continuity. There has been a retcon.

And youre right cubey, the other gems arent universal powers individually, the Power Gem individually however is. It was stated in Thanos Quest that it is an infinite power reservoir and that the Champion just didnt know its true nature or how to use it properly. It is this gem that amps up all the others to universal scale powers.

However if by current continuity the gems tap into the Big Bang and the Phoenix Force is the sentient Big Bang, then the Power Gem is outclassed her.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
It means universe. But destroying the universe doesn't mean all abstracts are destroyed. Death and Oblivion would still exist. She may not gain more souls but those souls that have died are still under her domain. Oblivion is the void, he isn't dying either.

So what if it can recreate? That's it's role. It sparks and brings life back. But as the universe expands, time and space also expands, chaos and order comes into being. It sparks what's been there, it's not the TOAA/Creator y'know? It merely serves as a spark the reignites the universe after it's destruction. It's not the power of everything in the universe. In fact, the destruction of the universe happens when humanity reaches it's peak potential, able to replace the abstracts. That's all planned by the abstracts because it's the natural order. The Celestials carry out that mandate by planting the seeds of evolution into man, the ability to reach abstract level when the universe comes to an end. X-Men Forever tries to tie everything and explain Galan becoming Galactus. The Phoenix Force is part of the natural order and seems to end the universe when in time as part of the natural order. It has the power to do it but so does Eternity, Galactus, Infinity, and many others. Difference is, this seems to be Phoenix' job, and not the others that's all. She's not more powerful than them.

The Phoenix Force as stated on panel is the sum and substance of all that is. It is the life force from which the universe derives. Whether the Force is the being that creates reality or whatever is another story, however what is not debatable is that the Force is the Big Bang. It may not be the creator, and it itself was created, however it is those primal and all encompassing life energies from which reality derives.

So you can argue that Sise Neg absorbed all the energies of reality and created a universe, you can argue on panel that Genis blew apart reality resulting in the Big Bang. Howveer they never created those energies, in those creation events they merely catalysed energies that were already there. Energies that make up the Phoenix Force.

The Big Bang-

Mother of the stars-

Sum and substance of life-

The well from which the stars draw power-

And as verified by Death and Roma and the Watcher, without the Force, there would be no universe, there would be a void

A point that further verifies that the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang from which reality derives.

It may not be the creator, but it is those very energies from which all reality springs forth. Thats the difference between it and Eternity and Infinity. Whereas they are concepts that embody time and space following the Big Bang, the Phoenix Force is those primal energies from which they are shaped from.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
?Who knows what? Apparently Death does. That's why you quoted him/her saying that Galactus would end the natural cycle of destruction and rebirth if he destroyed the Phoenix. Willing or not, Phoenix would be killed by Galactus permanently.

Phoenix would have been slayed. NOT the Phoenix Force. It was never under any threat, as stated by Galactus when he said the device was just returning the Force to the cosmos-

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Prove she can without bringing up a What If.

Jean Grey destroyed not just the Here Comes Tomorrow Universe, but she did something far greater, she effortlessly eradicated that timeline-

That is far greater than blowing up a universe which is just reality at one specific point in time, she took out the entire timeline, severing it from the multiverse 🙂

A far far greater feat than destruction of a mere universe. 😉

Idk GS, I just don't know.

Let's not destroy a universe in this thread.

Mr Master isn't here, there's still time to save it.

Originally posted by Mindset
Mr Master isn't here, there's still time to save it.

Nah, there really isn't. The Phoenix hard-on is back with more nonsense. Well at least this one doesn't dress up the way Quanchi does as Thanos.

Going with the Phoenix force

i think im going with the pheonix force after reading those scans