Originally posted by truejedi
huh, this sounds very much like what i said several times when people were talking about nihilus and Sidious. Most likely, it's going to come down to sabers, but all i hear is"wtf, noooo! megadrain!!!!"
Can you give me the source, where RotS Sidious has performed an instakill against another force user or demonstrated the ability to defend himself against an attack like that? Or are you just comparing apples to oranges?
tj
if we judge by the fluctuating skill of magna-guards, ahsoka tahno is the greatest jedi evah.
I think the reality is that MagnaGuards are sufficiently lethal, but highly mass produced bodyguards. Of course, the ones Kenobi and Anakin fought aboard the Invisible Hand and Utapau might be of superior training and programming. Grievous does refer to them as his "elite," after all.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Can you give me the source, where RotS Sidious has performed an instakill against another force user or demonstrated the ability to defend himself against an attack like that? Or are you just comparing apples to oranges?
how is that apples to oranges? Where has dooku shown an ability to defend himself against force-lightning of sidious's ilk?
Originally posted by Borbarad
Vaapad isn't some sort of mysterious anti-Dark-Sider lightsaber ability and it also doesn't work extremely well against Dark Siders. It just enables Mace Windu to use all of his very own dark feelings to boost his own ability in terms of lightsaber combat. I think that, for any other kind of interpretation, you have to take certain quotes out of context in a very liberal fashion.
I know we're moving back here, but if that were the case, wouldn't ANY form allow the user to do likewise? I mean hell, one could use Shii-Cho or Niman in the same manner based on that philosophy, right? Are you not removing a key metaphysical aspect from Vaapad - one that makes it so much different... and deadlier than the other styles?
Originally posted by Borbarad
Since Sidious offensive force department, canonically as of RotS, is pretty much limited to telekinesis (an art in which Dooku excels) and force lightning (which can be blocked with a lightsaber, as demonstrated by Obi-Wan and Mace), I find it rather odd to assume, that Sidious is going to win an "all out fight". Especially when suggesting that Dookus lightsaber skill might be above that of his master.
Mace's defense against Sidious his Force Lightning wasn't flawless... All in all I wouldn't say that using a lightsaber to stop Sidious' Force Lightning is going to be as easy as you make it sound.
[...]instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.
Palpatine's eyes glowed with power, casting a yellow glare that burned back the rain from around them. "He is a traitor, Anakin. Destroy him."
"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny.'"
Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me"
Then Sidious stopped.
"I... can't. I give up. I... I am too weak, in the end. Too old, and too weak. Don't kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender."
Victory flooded through Mace's aching body. He lifted his blade. "You Sith disease "
Sidious obviously faked being too weak for Anakin, as later he would still have enough power left and even though Mace stopped the Lightning he was badly damaged.
Originally posted by BorbaradYou're adding your own opinion to that scene. Mace may have noticed that there were multiple Shatterpoints in Palpatine, but per the novelization, the only one he followed was the "largest fracture" (ie. Anakin.) No reference was made to him using any other Shatterpoints.
I'm slowly getting tired of correcting the severe problems with reading comprehension, that most people here seem to suffer from:"Impasse. [b]Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift.
[...]his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source. Feeling for its shatterpoint. He found a knot of fault lines in the shadow's future; he chose the largest fracture and followed it[...]" - Revenge of the Sith novelizationVaapad just enabled him to reach an impasse with Sidious that could have lasted forever, if it weren't for his Shatterpoint ability, making the ability the deciding factor in the fight. And he found multiple shatterpoints, just identifying the largets one first. He still used the Shatterpoint ability to defeat Sidious. [/B]
Originally posted by BorbaradI can be "pretty sure" that Mace would best Dooku, because of his battle with Palpatine. Meaning: if Mace could no less than stalemate an opponent who was superior to Dooku (ie. Palpatine), then why would I believe that Dooku himself would fare nearly as well as his master did?
Your conclusions don't make sense.
If we can trust Dooku and several other sources, Dooku was at least equal or superior to Mace in terms of lightsaber combat, which includes Windu's Shatterpoint ability. From what we see in the various sources, Dooku's force mastery is also either on par or superior to that of Mace Windu (especially dark side abilities - of course - and telekinesis).So how can you be "pretty sure" that Dooku would lose to Sidious in an all out fight? I'm rather certain he would lose a force contest against his own master, however, his force mastery (especially his defensive abilites demonstrated by the ability to redirect Sith lightning) should be suffice to survive a - probable - initial force attack by his master, to close distance and defeat him in lightsaber combat.
Where statements pertaining to Dooku being equal to Mace are concerned: keep in mind that those statements were made prior to Mace's battle against Palpatine. And before that battle, he [Mace] had never fully embraced Vaapad - so obviously no other Jedi/Sith had seen what Vaapad was capable of when it's wielder used it to its max (while remaining in control, of course.) That was a one time/last time deal.
Originally posted by truejedi
how is that apples to oranges? Where has dooku shown an ability to defend himself against force-lightning of sidious's ilk?
He has demonstrated the ability to deflect force lightning (his own). Lesser force users have demonstrated the ability to deflect force lightning (Obi-Wan). Apparently equal level (or lesser) force users have demonstrated the ability to defend themselves against Sidious lightning (Mace Windu). Out of these facts one can, reasonably, conclude, that Dooku has a good chance of being capable of defending himself against Sidious force lightning.
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
I know we're moving back here, but if that were the case, wouldn't ANY form allow the user to do likewise? I mean hell, one could use Shii-Cho or Niman in the same manner based on that philosophy, right? Are you not removing a key metaphysical aspect from Vaapad - one that makes it so much different... and deadlier than the other styles?
Since the term Vaapad does refer to both, the philosophy and the combat style, I don't see how I'm "taking away" anything. I think one could apply the philosophy while using other combat movements. Yet the other styles usually have their own philosophy linked to it, which might not fit the purpose.
Originally posted by Galan007
You're adding your own opinion to that scene. Mace may have noticed that there were multiple Shatterpoints in Palpatine, but per the novelization, the only one he followed was the "largest fracture" (ie. Anakin.) No reference was made to him using any other Shatterpoints.
Per novelization, his Vaapad wasn't enough to defeat Sidious. Then he uses his Shatterpoint ability. Then Sidious is defeated. Is any other ability mentioned? Because if it wasn't Vaapad and also not the Shatterpoint ability, what do you think enabled him to win?
I can be "pretty sure" that Mace would best Dooku, because of his battle with Palpatine. Meaning: if Mace could no less than stalemate an opponent who was superior to Dooku (ie. Palpatine), then why would I believe that Dooku himself would fare nearly as well as his master did?
Can you stop arguing in circles please. Unless you present proof, that Sidious is the superior lightsaber praciticioneer in comparison to Dooku (with all evidence pointing in the opposite direction), you don't have a point at all.
Where statements pertaining to Dooku being equal to Mace are concerned: keep in mind that those statements were made prior to Mace's battle against Palpatine. And before that battle, he [Mace] had never fully embraced Vaapad - so obviously no other Jedi/Sith had seen what Vaapad was capable of when it's wielder used it to its max (while remaining in control, of course.) That was a one time/last time deal.
Who says that Mace has never fully embraced Vaapad before? His "limitation" in that department where gone ever since the events in the novel "Shatterpoint", which is even outright stated in the text. It was on Haruun Kal where he learned to embrace his inner darkness. So he was capable of using its max throughout most of the Clone Wars and not just for his fight against Sidious.
Originally posted by Borbarad
He has demonstrated the ability to deflect force lightning (his own). Lesser force users have demonstrated the ability to deflect force lightning (Obi-Wan). Apparently equal level (or lesser) force users have demonstrated the ability to defend themselves against Sidious lightning (Mace Windu). Out of these facts one can, reasonably, conclude, that Dooku has a good chance of being capable of defending himself against Sidious force lightning.
I just want to point out that Dooku disposed of 3 nightsisters simultaneously (including Ventress a known jedi slayer) with his Force Lightning. And they were all armed with lightsabers but clearly could not defend themselves against it.
He also kept Savage Opress at bay with his FL while fighting off Ventress. Savage actually beat Dooku in Lightsaber combat at one point, and yet Dooku still overpowered him with his FL.
He also knocked out AOTC Anakin with his FL.(I know he rushed in like a dumbass, but still..) He knocked out Sora Bulq with his FL in a comic. Sidious disarmed Yoda with his FL, and had Mace screaming and shaking, and thats all while he was feigning his weakness.
So I really dnt think one instance where Obi-Wan deflected a one handed shot by Dooku means that anyone can at any time defend themselves against Force Lightning from anyone. I think its obvious after seeing the ROTS fight that Dooku did not go all out agaisnt Obi-Wan with the Force in AOTC.
And in this fight in particular (Mace vs Dooku) FL is not only a very powerful tool at Dooku's disposal (particularly as shown lately in the Clone Wars), but the one weapon he has that Mace does not, so I really dnt think your doing Dooku any favours by saying its going to be a useless weapon thats easily defended against by anyone at anytime.
Originally posted by Borbarad
I've never said it would be easy to block [Sidious'] force lightning. I merely noticed that I think it is possible [for people equipped with force mastery compareable to that of Mace, e.g. Dooku].
It is only barely possible for Mace, if not at all in the long run, to block Sidious' FL.
IMO, from the movie characters, only Yoda could do it.
Originally posted by BorbaradAnd per the novelization, the only Shatterpoint Mace used/followed was the "largest fracture", which was Anakin. Nothing else pertaining to Shatterpoint manipulation was referenced. So unless you think that Mace noticing Anakin is what enabled him to win, then we must assume that Shatterpoint had nothing to do with him prevailing.
Per novelization, his Vaapad wasn't enough to defeat Sidious. Then he uses his Shatterpoint ability. Then Sidious is defeated. Is any other ability mentioned? Because if it wasn't Vaapad and also not the Shatterpoint ability, what do you think enabled him to win?
Here's how it ended:
"[Mace] could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge. Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop. Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete. Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half. One piece flipped back in through the cut-open window. The other tumbled from opening fingers, bounced on the ledge, and fell through the rain toward the distant alleys below. Now the shadow was only Palpatine: old and shrunken, thinning hair bleached white by time and care, face lined with exhaustion."
Mace won by turning Palpatine's fear into a weapon, along with utilizing battlefield manipulation.
Originally posted by BorbaradYou misunderstand. Where a pure duel is concerned, Dooku could very well be superior to Palpatine (though it's arguable either way.) I am talking solely about an all-out battle.
Can you stop arguing in circles please. Unless you present proof, that Sidious is the superior lightsaber praciticioneer in comparison to Dooku (with all evidence pointing in the opposite direction), you don't have a point at all.
Originally posted by BorbaradI can't say that I can recall another instance where Mace engulfed himself in Vaapad like he did against Palpatine:
Who says that Mace has never fully embraced Vaapad before? His "limitation" in that department where gone ever since the events in the novel "Shatterpoint", which is even outright stated in the text. It was on Haruun Kal where he learned to embrace his inner darkness. So he was capable of using its max throughout most of the Clone Wars and not just for his fight against Sidious.
"This was Vaapad's ultimate test[...] Mace Windu was cutting loose. Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being.
Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt. There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared."
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
It is only barely possible for Mace, if not at all in the long run, to block Sidious' FL.
According to the novel.
In the higher canon of the movie, he does force his blade down towards Sidious instead having it moving towards his face. Add the fact that the commentary in that scene says, Sidious is trying to kill him and exerting himself in the process. So full power Sith Lightning from Sidious got overpowered by Windu.
IMO, from the movie characters, only Yoda could do it.
Since we've seen Mace doing it, this statement is kind of odd.
@Galen007
Originally posted by Galan007
And per the novelization, the only Shatterpoint Mace used/followed was the "largest fracture", which was Anakin. Nothing else pertaining to Shatterpoint manipulation was referenced. So unless you think that Mace noticing Anakin is what enabled him to win, then we must assume that Shatterpoint had nothing to do with him prevailing.
Oh.My.God.
Didn't you forget a little detail?
"You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear." Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said. He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons. "Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?" - Revenge of the Sith novelization
Emphasis mine. How about reading a source completely instead of taken the things serving your argument out of context? Mace didn't sense (and utilize) the fear of Sidious. He sensed and utilized the fear of the only other person being present besides himself and the Sith Lord: Anakin. And what was leading him there? His Shatterpoint ability. You were saying?
You misunderstand. Where a pure duel is concerned, Dooku could very well be superior to Palpatine (though it's arguable either way.) I am talking solely about an all-out battle.
And you're understanding pretty much nothing. How would an all out scenario work, according to your opinion? Do you think that Dooku would try to engage Sidious in a force contest? I don't think so. He would try to close the gap between them, with Sidious either allowing it or trying to stop Dooku using the force. And at that point in time, one might ask how do you think he would overcome Dooku exactly, when he was unable to overcome Mace?
I can't say that I can recall another instance where Mace engulfed himself in Vaapad like he did against Palpatine
Since you're already incapable of recalling passages of text right below the passages of text you're quoting here, I can't say that does surprise me. We don't know if he utilized Vaapad in a similar fashion before, because most Clone War sources were released after the RotS novel. But why shall we assume that he held back in every fight he got in during the Clone Wars? That doesn't make any sense.
In the higher canon of the movie, he does force his blade down towards Sidious instead having it moving towards his face. Add the fact that the commentary in that scene says, Sidious is trying to kill him and exerting himself in the process. So full power Sith Lightning from Sidious got overpowered by Windu.
Ummm... Actually Lucas said Palpatine pretended to be weak and lose his powers.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Ummm... Actually Lucas said Palpatine pretended to be weak and lose his powers.
Yeah. Right after the statement, where he mentions that Mace overpowered him and Sidious couldn't kill Mace with the force lightning. Which Sidious had to drop, because - also mentioned in the commentary - he was just frying himself. Your point? That Sidious had enough energy left to go on with electrocuting his own ass? 👆
Originally posted by Borbarad
In the higher canon of the movie, he does force his blade down towards Sidious instead having it moving towards his face.
Yeah but he was screaming and shaking and struggling to hold on to his weapon.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Add the fact that the commentary in that scene says, Sidious is trying to kill him and exerting himself in the process. So full power Sith Lightning from Sidious got overpowered by Windu.
Just listened to the commentary again, and it wasnt Lucas who said that, about trying to kill him and exerting himself in the process. And it was said after Lucas already stated that Sidious was pretending to be weak and pretending to lose his power.
Now Mace was obviously struggling and exerting himself too. But all we know is that Mace was able to overpower Sidious's Lightning while he was pretending to be weak. Sidious only stopped firing while he was pretending to lose his power.
So that isn't exactly strong evidence that Mace can overpower Sidious's FL, something even Yoda failed to do.
FYI After watching the Savage Opress trilogy I actually think Dooku has a decent chance against Mace BECAUSE of how effectively he can Utilize his FL mid Saber Fight.