Windu vs dooku

Originally posted by Borbarad
According to the novel.

In the higher canon of the movie, he does force his blade down towards Sidious instead having it moving towards his face. .

The movie doesn't contradict Mace his struggle actually, if you look at the following 2:32 (which I have specially picked out for you) we can see that Mace is struggling quite a bit [coherent with the novel]:

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Add the fact that the commentary in that scene says, Sidious is trying to kill him and exerting himself in the process. So full power Sith Lightning from Sidious got overpowered by Windu

Didn't Lucas mean that Mace overpowered him in the lightsaber duel?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah but he was screaming and shaking and struggling to hold on to his weapon.

He did still hold on his weapon and, unlike in any kind of presumed scenariou, he was basically already in infight range with Sidious, when the Sith Lord used the skill.

Just listened to the commentary again, and it wasnt Lucas who said that, about trying to kill him and exerting himself in the process. And it was said after Lucas already stated that Sidious was pretending to be weak and pretending to lose his power.

Now Mace was obviously struggling and exerting himself too. But all we know is that Mace was able to overpower Sidious's Lightning while he was pretending to be weak. Sidious only stopped firing while he was pretending to lose his power.

So that isn't exactly strong evidence that Mace can overpower Sidious's FL, something even Yoda failed to do.

🙄

When Lucas talks about "faking weakness" he talks about what happens after the initial force lightning used, where Sidious says he's to weak to continue. That's obvious. Before that, he's trying to kill Mace with all he can and fails.

So Mace does withstand Sidious force lightning.

FYI After watching the Savage Opress trilogy I actually think Dooku has a decent chance against Mace BECAUSE of how effectively he can Utilize his FL mid Saber Fight.

He could do the same against Sidious...

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Just listened to the commentary again, and it wasnt Lucas who said that, about trying to kill him and exerting himself in the process. And it was said after Lucas already stated that Sidious was pretending to be weak and pretending to lose his power.

Alright, I clicked the "To view this post click [here]" button and after reading this I may actually put you of my ignore list.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. Right after the statement, where he mentions that Mace [b]overpowered him ]

In the Saber duel.. A duel that might never have even happened if Mace didnt begin the fight with 3 other Jedis. Sidious MIGHT have been able to just use the Force and not let Mace get close to him, kind of like Dooku kept doing to Savage while duelling Ventress.

Originally posted by Borbarad
and Sidious couldn't kill Mace with the force lightning.

Thats never said in the commentary. The novel makes it very clear his FL was seriously deadly to Mace. Mace didnt think he could defeat him without Anakin.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Which Sidious had to drop, because - also mentioned in the commentary - he was just frying himself.

Again thats never said. But we are told by Lucas himself that he's pretending to lose his power. If he's pretending he cant carry on anymorw, he might want to stop shooting!

Originally posted by Borbarad
Your point? That Sidious had enough energy left to go on with electrocuting his own ass? 👆

Well according to the novel he Sidious was feeding off the pain fuelling his power.

Seriously your saying Vapaad doesnt give an advantage against Darksiders, and on top of that your saying Mace Overpowered Sidious not only in the Saber fight but also against his Force powers..

Now tell me if Im missing something here but that would actually make Mace MORE Powerful than the Emporer. It would also make him more Powerful than Yoda, as Yoda went all out to try and defeat the Emporer but couldn't do it in a much longer fight than Mace vs Sidious.

And it would certainly make Mace more powerful than Dooku who could not overpower Yoda in the Force or in Sabers, even on a planet steeped in the Dark side.

Originally posted by Borbarad

When Lucas talks about "faking weakness" he talks about what happens after the initial force lightning used, where Sidious says he's to weak to continue. That's obvious. Before that, he's trying to kill Mace with all he can and fails.

So Mace does withstand Sidious force lightning.

Ok I get this.. But Mace was also seriously struggling to hold off that initial FL burst. He even let go with one hand-EDIT(just checked this didn't happen till later).. And since Sidious began faking being weak after that theres no real evidence Mace could have continually fended off that force lightning.

Id put my money on the POOOWAHHHHH!! UNLIMITED POOOOWAHHHH! 😄

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh.My.God.
Didn't you forget a little detail?

"You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear." Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said. He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons. "Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. [b]"Do you think the fear you feel is mine?" - Revenge of the Sith novelization

Emphasis mine. How about reading a source completely instead of taken the things serving your argument out of context? Mace didn't sense (and utilize) the fear of Sidious. He sensed and utilized the fear of the only other person being present besides himself and the Sith Lord: Anakin. And what was leading him there? His Shatterpoint ability. You were saying?[/B]

Are you saying that Anakin was responsible for that? How would Mace not know that he was utilizing Anakin's fear, and not Palpatine's? Just seems like a stretch, imo. Additionally, is it not possible that the master of the dark side was, you know, lying? I mean, he did lie about being powerless moments later (per GL)... Just saying.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And you're understanding pretty much nothing. How would an all out scenario work, according to your opinion? Do you think that Dooku would try to engage Sidious in a force contest? I don't think so. He would try to close the gap between them, with Sidious either allowing it or trying to stop Dooku using the force. And at that point in time, one might ask how do you think he would overcome Dooku exactly, when he was unable to overcome Mace?

Palaptine is more powerful than Dooku. He uses that power when he duels (hence the blur-esque speed he displayed vs. Mace.) So while Dooku might be the better duelist from a technical standpoint, the power differential between himself and Palpatine is why, imo, he would lose an all-out battle.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Since you're already incapable of recalling passages of text right below the passages of text you're quoting here, I can't say that does surprise me. We don't know if he utilized Vaapad in a similar fashion before, because most Clone War sources were released after the RotS novel.

But why shall we assume that he held back in every fight he got in during the Clone Wars? That doesn't make any sense.

Why would we assume he never fully embraced Vaapad before fighting Palpatine? Perhaps because he had never battled such a powerful opponent for such an extended length of time?

Originally posted by Galan007
If throwing around some smug remarks makes you feel like you're accomplishing more, then go for it. 👆

Sidious could also be lying... I mean, Mace just told him he was going to lose because of his own fear.

It wouldn't be a huge stretch for Sidious to come back with an a big "nuh-uh! It's anakin, not me!"

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. Right after the statement, where he mentions that Mace [b]overpowered him and Sidious couldn't kill Mace with the force lightning. Which Sidious had to drop, because - also mentioned in the commentary - he was just frying himself. Your point? That Sidious had enough energy left to go on with electrocuting his own ass? 👆 [/B]

The way Lucas worded that does mean a lot. Lucas said he always had the part in there where Mace overpowered Palpatine. And he did overpower him. Then Lucas goes on to mention that Palpatine "pretending to become weak and lose his powers" was something he decided to add in there later, so that changed a lot about the scene. The difference now is that Palpatine allowed Mace to overpower him. It's pretty obvious that Palpatine did not plan on killing Windu, and wanted Anakin to think he was at risk of being killed which is why before the fight he called out to Anakin through the force saying: "If the jedi destroy me, any chance of saving her will be lost". He always wanted Anakin to believe he was at risk of being killed; he wanted Anakin to intervene. This could be the reason he took out B team and then turned his attention to Windu. If they were as even as you say, then Windu should have been able to kill him while Palpatine's attention was on B team. Palpatine should have been very vulnerable to attack at that time. Instead he clearly holds the upperhand during this part of the duel, forcing Windu all the way back into his office.

There is also the arguement that Windu was unable to kill Palpatine while Palpatine's attention was on B team because he was not sunk all the way in vapaad yet. If that is the case, then there you have it, vapaad is what made them equals, and that is something Dooku does not have access to, nor does he have access to a B team. So stop comparing Dooku to Windu. Sounds like you're the one comparing apples to oranges. Stop using Windu's fight with Palpatine as a way to make Dooku Windu's equal, 'cause there not, especially when Mace has Vapaad.

Also, when someone exerts himself, they naturally become weak from using up everything they have in them, so pretending to be weak would pretty much be impossible.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
No, don't! Don't egg him on, it'll only make him more powAHfull!

Originally posted by truejedi
Sidious could also be lying... I mean, Mace just told him he was going to lose because of his own fear.

It wouldn't be a huge stretch for Sidious to come back with an a big "nuh-uh! It's anakin, not me!"

In my opinion.

"And Palpatine was not afraid.
Mace could feel it: he wasn't worried at all." -- ROTS, p 333.

Its pretty clear that Sidious was trying to get Anakin to come and rescue him and was damn sure that he would.

Not sure if that means that he lost on purpose though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its pretty clear that Sidious was trying to get Anakin to come and rescue him.

Not sure if that meant that he lost on purpose though.

He didn't lose the lightsaber fight on purpose, but a lot of evidence suggests that Palpatine was able to continue his assault on Mace and thus killing him.

If he didn't lose on purpose, then why was he trying to get Anakin to come rescue him? Unless he knew he'd lose I guess?

Originally posted by Nephthys
If he didn't lose on purpose, then why was he trying to get Anakin to come rescue him? Unless he knew he'd lose I guess?

Since I can't edit this in my above post (damn 15 minute rule), this is the entire scene that Borbarad posted:

"You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear." "Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said. He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons. "Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine? Lighting blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him."

As made apparent by the underlined: Mace didn't know what the hell Palpatine was talking about when he mentioned that the fear wasn't his own. I find it hard to believe that a veteran Jedi like Mace wouldn't know exactly whose fear he was harnessing.... And with his own abilities, no less.

Originally posted by Galan007
Since I can't edit this in my above post (damn 15 minute rule), this is the entire scene that Borbarad posted:

"You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose:
defeated by your own fear." "Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said. He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons. "Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine? Lighting blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him."

As made apparent by the underlined: Mace didn't know what the hell Palpatine was talking about when he mentioned that the fear wasn't his own. I find it hard to believe that a veteran Jedi like Mace wouldn't know exactly whose fear he was harnessing.... And with his own abilities, no less.

RB
"And Palpatine was not afraid.
Mace could feel it: he wasn't worried at all." -- ROTS, p 333.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
"And Palpatine was not afraid.
Mace could feel it: he wasn't worried at all." -- ROTS, p 333.

The lines you posted happened right before Anakin intervened (ie. he'd already jumped across the room to Mace/Palpatine's location.) Palpatine really didn't have a reason to be afraid then - he could likely sense that Anakin was about to strike.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its pretty clear that Sidious was trying to get Anakin to come and rescue him and was damn sure that he would.

Not sure if that means that he lost on purpose though.

Not saying he lost his duel on purpose. I believe vapaad made Windu Palpatine's equal as far as a lightsaber duel. The novel makes this clear, so there is no arguing with that. I just don't believe Palpatine was in any real danger after the fight. I also do not believe Palpatine would have been in any real danger if Windu did not have B team + the time to sink into vapaad. So by Borbarad saying Palpatine would not do any better with Dooku than he did with Windu is wrong. Dooku does not have vapaad or a B team in a one on one match with Sidious.

Originally posted by Galan007
Which was after Mace had already utilized Palpatine's fear to disarm/overpower him.

The lines you posted happened just before Anakin intervened. Palpatine really didn't have a reason to be afraid then - he could likely sense that Anakin was about to strike.

Right. I'm just saying that he wasn't afraid the entire time, which means that when he says "you think the fear you feel is mine?!" it might be legit.