Actually, this makes more sense than I realised. The Exile was able to just 'do' the technique without really meaning to. She doesn't even need to consciously do it at all, it comes naturally to her, which makes sense given how the Jedi emphasise her unique ability to create Force Bonds so easily. When the Sith use it it is always intentional. Because it isn't something they're so uniquely skilled in.
Also:
More emphasis on the Force bonding being the real threat.
(I had to listen/watch the confrontation between the Jedi Masters and the Exile & Traya multiple times for accuracy.)
I remain entirely unconvinced by the idea that the talent of creating Force bonds is a direct and necessary component of the drain technique utilized by the Exile, Nihilus, and Traya.
It must be reiterated that you have yet to provide a single shred of evidence suggesting that Nihilus formed a bond with his victims on Katarr; the dialogue here (the 1:21 mark onwards) indicates that they'd never even encountered Nihilus before, much less stood directly in his presence. Where was the bond formed that was necessary for Nihilus to drain their life essences? Likewise, you haven't provided a single shred of evidence that Traya possessed the gift. Certainly, the Jedi Masters don't exhibit the telltale corruption or sycophantic nature of either zombie!Tobin or the Exile's companions, the trademarks of the respective Force bonds of Nihilus and the Exile.
In point of fact, it is never explicitly stated that Force bonds have anything to do with the Force drain technique; continuing from the most recent screenshots, the Jedi elucidate (1:26 mark) as to their fear of the Exile's ability to create Force bonds:
"What if other Jedi went to war as you did, suffered the same events, and emerged as you did. What if there was a crucible that trained Jedi to consume and kill?"
They fear that the Exile will create others like herself.
Between this and the fact that Avellone makes it abundantly clear that the ancient Sith could have used the technique if not for their fear of destroying their personalities, I stand by my original assessment. 😬
shut up tj
The fact that it is in the dialogue means that it is a thing that they would say which means that it is a window into their mind which means that it is genuine knowledge that they have. It is a canon fact that they think these things. Whether the Exile knew all of them? Not so much. However, ignoring our only source of evidence is not the way to settle tis argument.
Z.
However, ignoring our only source of evidence is not the way to settle tis argument.
Well, as far as I've seen, Neph's assertion is without merit. In addition to the obvious absence of an explicit confirmation, the evidence collectively points against such an idea. It would require that Nihilus be able to create bonds with hundreds of Jedi Knights whom he has never encountered before; it would require that Traya possess a talent she is never said to have and wield it against those who show know sign of the diminished will or dominated psyche that are hallmarks of such a technique.
In essence, it requires that we accept purely on faith, not fact. And this ain't a religion. ahuh
See the 9:35 mark for the dialogue option: "I learned that I form connections through the Force -- and that is why others follow me to their deaths."
Still no reference to the danger of a Force drain. :/
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
It must be reiterated that you have yet to provide a single shred of evidence suggesting that Nihilus formed a bond with his victims on Katarr;
'Must' it?
The Jedi twice outright state that the Technique is the same.
'You are a cipher, forming bonds, leeching the life of others, siphoning their will and dominating them. It is the teaching of these new Sith, to feed on others, on other Force Sensitives. They are symptomatic of the wound in the Force. You are a breach that must be closed. You transmit your pain, your suffering through the Force.”
“What's worse, is these Sith that we face... I fear that they have learned the lesson of Malachor all too well. It is what allows them to prey on Force users, to become stronger when Force Sensitives are near. Somehow, they have learned their hunger from you. And so you have brought about the end of the Jedi, and perhaps all the knowledge of the Force.”
Again I ask why you think one part of the technique does not apply in those cases. It apples to Nihilus, as we see whith Tobin and Nihilus' MIND-SLAVES (called Steve) on the Ravager. I mean they're even called 'Force slaves.'
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
the dialogue here (the 1:21 mark onwards) indicates that they'd never even encountered Nihilus before, much less stood directly in his presence. Where was the bond formed that was necessary for Nihilus to drain their life essences?
I think you misunderstand. Forcing a Force bond on your opponent is an intrical part of the technique. Its not like the Exile buddied up with all the people she killed either, and yet she still bonded and drained them, “He's right. It's... all the death you've caused to get here. You feed on it, and you grow stronger."
But we know that Nihilus' technique is the same as the Exile's anyway because of Tobin, who tells you that he is being dominated by Nihilus' will and is being drained by his hunger (who you yourself use as an example of Force bonds later in this very post I remind you). So if the Exile, the Sith and Nihilus all use bonds in their technique....... are you suggesting that Kreia is the only one who for some reason need not? Yeah, no.
(BTW in cut-content theres actually a scene of Nihilus forcing the bond on Tobin.)
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Likewise, you haven't provided a single shred of evidence that Traya possessed the gift. Certainly, the Jedi Masters don't exhibit the telltale corruption or sycophantic nature of either zombie!Tobin or the Exile's companions, the trademarks of the respective Force bonds of Nihilus and the Exile.
Forming a bond with someone does not immediately force them to your will. Its something that occurs gradually as you gain influence over their minds (is there any gameply mechanic Avellone doesn't deconstruct!? I think not!) Look at how much a ***** Atton is at the start of the game. Or hell, some of the other companions. You can't even convince Mira to go down on you for ****s sake. 🙄 And with small influence you can even have party members leave (The Disciple). Hell, despite having a Force bond Visas tells Nihilus to **** off and attacks him! No sycophantic corruption there. I guess he should have payed better attention to what dialogue choices he made. Plus Force Choking her couldn't have been good.
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
In point of fact, it is [b]never explicitly stated that Force bonds have anything to do with the Force drain technique; continuing from the most recent screenshots, the Jedi elucidate (1:26 mark) as to their fear of the Exile's ability to create Force bonds:"What if other Jedi went to war as you did, suffered the same events, and emerged as you did. What if there was a crucible that trained Jedi to consume and kill?"
They fear that the Exile will create others like herself. [/b]
What? How does that have anything to do with forming Force bonds?
Originally posted by Turr_Phennir
Between this and the fact that Avellone makes it abundantly clear that the ancient Sith could have used the technique if not for their fear of destroying their personalities, I stand by my original assessment. 😬
Point?
You realize that you didn't actually address a single point by way of evidence? All you've done is anatomize my argument, all of which concerns itself with the lack of evidence you provided, and essentially try to avoid providing any. When I ask you for evidence as to the unlikely bond between Nihilus and his victims on Katarr or his intended victims on Telos or the bond between Kreia and the Jedi Masters or Sion's assassins on Malachor, you actually don't give me anything and only refer me to the Council's implication [at best] that the two are somehow connected.
I'd like to see evidence of the Force bonds between Nihilus and Kreia and their many victims. Because if what you say is true, there should be ample evidence of it. Your argument also assumes that the ancient Sith as a collective group were capable of forming Force bonds with individuals with great ease, for which again, there is no evidence.
Neph
'You are a cipher, forming bonds, leeching the life of others, siphoning their will and dominating them. It is the teaching of these new Sith, to feed on others, on other Force Sensitives. They are symptomatic of the wound in the Force. You are a breach that must be closed. You transmit your pain, your suffering through the Force.”“What's worse, is these Sith that we face... I fear that they have learned the lesson of Malachor all too well. It is what allows them to prey on Force users, to become stronger when Force Sensitives are near. Somehow, they have learned their hunger from you. And so you have brought about the end of the Jedi, and perhaps all the knowledge of the Force.”
This has been addressed. During their confrontation with the Exile, the Council concludes that the Exile's ability to create bonds is the ultimate reason for why she needs to be permanently removed from the Force. The reason they explain such a danger makes no reference to Force drains or whatnot:
"What if other Jedi went to war as you did, suffered the same events, and emerged as you did. What if there was a crucible that trained Jedi to consume and kill?"
I think you misunderstand. Forcing a Force bond on your opponent is an intrical part of the technique. Its not like the Exile buddied up with all the people she killed either, and yet she still bonded and drained them, “He's right. It's... all the death you've caused to get here. You feed on it, and you grow stronger."
Neph
But we know that Nihilus' technique is the same as the Exile's anyway because of Tobin, who tells you that he is being dominated by Nihilus' will and is being drained by his hunger (who you yourself use as an example of Force bonds later in this very post I remind you). So if the Exile, the Sith and Nihilus all use bonds in their technique....... are you suggesting that Kreia is the only one who for some reason need not? Yeah, no.(BTW in cut-content theres actually a scene of Nihilus forcing the bond on Tobin.)
Your argument assumes that the Exile bonded with her "hundreds" of victims. Is there actually any proof of that?
Neph
Forming a bond with someone does not immediately force them to your will. Its something that occurs gradually as you gain influence over their minds (is there any gameply mechanic Avellone doesn't deconstruct!? I think not!) Look at how much a ***** Atton is at the start of the game. Or hell, some of the other companions. You can't even convince Mira to go down on you for ****s sake. And with small influence you can even have party members leave (The Disciple). Hell, despite having a Force bond Visas tells Nihilus to **** off and attacks him! No sycophantic corruption there. I guess he should have payed better attention to what dialogue choices he made. Plus Force Choking her couldn't have been good.
Then where is the evidence of this small influence? Give me any evidence that indicates the existence of a Force bond.
Neph
What? How does that have anything to do with forming Force bonds?
Because the Jedi Masters repeatedly mention that the Exile's ultimate danger is her ability to form connections between herself and others, including powerful Force sensitives.
I do not dispute that the Exile creates bonds nor do I dispute that she feeds from them, in a manner of speaking. But even her closest companions and allies are not leeched, only influenced, so I have hard time believing that relative strangers and enemies are being drained like a Red Bull by a fat kid.
So your argument assumes that the bonding is a direct and necessary component of the drain. This is never stated, not once. Your argument also assumes that bonds were formed between multiple parties where there is actually no evidence of them and when logic dictates that it is so highly unlikely as to approach impossible. Your argument assumes that the ancient Sith collectively possessed this talent, which is by all accounts rare and anomalous, as Avellone indicates that the only reason they didn't make use of the technique is because they feared the loss of their identities. (Which makes me wonder, how would an empire of these Force bonding parasites even function amongst each other?)
Lastly, your argument assumes that the presence of the Force bond, even if present, even if necessary, somehow makes the effect of the technique different. That draining the life of someone with whom one is Force bonded is performed differently than a typical Force drain. Of that, I see as little evidence as I do the rest of your assumptions. Given that Qel-Droma's hologram enabled Anakin to resist the effects of the Reaper, I see no reason why it would be useless here.
So let's keep the rest of the discussion bare bones and evidence-oriented, because my questions remain unanswered.