👆 X 1000 for Nephthys' involvement in this thread against you jackassess.
Regarding the Force Shield, in Path of destruction, Darth Bane's telekinetic assault on Qordis (Force Choke) is described as directly tearing through his Force Shield, and it was stated that the students at the academy were taught to defend against telekinetic manipulation of their lightsabers by using a Force Shield, which would indicate that Force Shields can not only defend attacks that directly target the body, but also prevent manipulation of the equipment on their person as well and of a form that doesn't particularly resemble that of a conventional attack. Given that it defends against a large variety of techniques, the likelihood is that it serves as a defence to a general function rather than an arbitrary list of specific techniques, and the common denominator between all of the aforementioned techniques is that of a physical manipulation targeted on or towards the person's body or immediate equipment at hand, with negative implications. Based on the evidence that has been presented, it's unlikely that Plagueis' technique so differs in function that the Force Shield wouldn't serve as a practical defence against the technique.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's how Bane was making his Sith Holocron, was it not? Or is it unique to him?Oh, and here's a quote:
Each holocron matrix had to meet stringent specifications, usually requiring thousands of precise alterations and adjustments on a subatomic level. Only through the power of the Force could one ensure that each crystalline strand was properly aligned.
What exactly is the source for this quote?
Interestingly, Palpatine is known to have studied treatises on Holocron construction during his apprenticeship under Plagueis.
Rule of Two
He had made his first attempt five years before. Using Freedon Nadd's Holocron as a blueprint, he had re-created the intricate matrix of lattices and vertices that were the key to storing nearly infinite amounts of knowledge in a data system small enough to fit in the palm of a hand. It had taken months to gather and fashion the rare crystal into the filaments and fibers of the interlaced network, followed by weeks of delicate and painstaking adjustments. The matrix had to fall within highly exacting specifications, and Bane had spent hundreds of hours making thousands of precise, subatomic alterations through the power of the Force to ensure that each crystalline strand was properly in place.
With respect to Holocron instruction, the text does indeed indicate that subatomic manipulation was a required task, which means that this ability is not exclusive to Bane. Not that it matters, as we have no idea how hard it was to achieve and maintain that level of perception, making it useless with respect to combat.
Is there evidence or suggestion of alternative methods for the creation of the matrix beyond the Force?
Rule of Two
Time was the real key. He had to finish aligning the matrix and infuse it with his dark side energies within a few days, before the cognitive functions of the gatekeeper began to degrade. Now, after months of gathering the rare materials, weeks of meditations to focus his power, and three straight days and nights of intense focus and concentration, he was finally nearing the end.
Rule of Two
Three days of constantly drawing upon the Force without food or respite had left him exhausted in body, mind, and spirit. He was particularly vulnerable to the orbalisks in this state. Normally they fed off the dark side energies that naturally flowed through him, but the creation of the Holocron demanded that he channel all his power directly into his work.
Two weeks of meditation to focus his power and all of it had to go towards its creation? I'm not seeing how this is applicable at all to combat, unless Bane is known to have possessed the ability to perceive and manipulate subatomic particles without such preparation.
Originally posted by Nephthys
There was nothing indicating Nihilus' Giga Drain lacked use in combat but that didn't stop you from arguing the potential of charge times and rituals and intensive concentration.
You'll have to remind me, I can barely remember half of the KOTOR arguments these days. Nihilus can kill most with the giga drain, but we've seen from Karpyshyn, that drain is a blockable thing
Whats this about a variant?
With Midichlorians
Gideon was never able to successfully prove that. Even when he tracked down the source in which it was 'blocked'.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Is it ever said that said subatomic manipulation has to be through the Force rather than via technology? That seems a viable alternative to me for Sith not able to do so through Force skill.
Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting the Sith didn't use the force to make their own Holocrons?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
You'll have to remind me, I can barely remember half of the KOTOR arguments these days. Nihilus can kill most with the giga drain, but we've seen from Karpyshyn, that drain is a blockable thing
I don't see how thats relevent at all. The Thought Bomb isn't even close to being the same thing as Nihilus' Giga Drain. Karpyshyn hasn't elaborated upon Nihilus and Trayas technique to my knowledge.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
With Midichlorians
Could you be a little bit more specific than that? Palpatine used the midichlorians to stop Plagueis from healing?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
You know that Thought Bomb? The effects are [b]identical to the drainage Bane uses in Dynasty of evil: draining someone of force and vitality till they crumble to dust. Bane d survives with a bad headache. [/B]
How does that have anything to do with Nihilus and Trayas technique? They are not the same thing. As I've already explained to you their technique involves a different process, seen here:
"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes."
You can't equate it with a conventional drain. The technique is unblockable for a reason.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't see how thats relevent at all. The Thought Bomb isn't even close to being the same thing as Nihilus' Giga Drain. Karpyshyn hasn't elaborated upon Nihilus and Trayas technique to my knowledge.
He doesn't have to. Their technique is Force Drain. Hell, that's even listed under the campaign guide
Could you be a little bit more specific than that? Palpatine used the midichlorians to stop Plagueis from healing?
Yes. And he only sensed Plagueis's attempt to heal due to his speicalized training
How does that have anything to do with Nihilus and Trayas technique? They are not the same thing. As I've already explained to you their technique involves a different process, seen here:
"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes."
Fantasticl. Except that's a [b]basic description for force drain. Good god, when Vitiate did the same thing? You're doing nothing but bandying semantics over the technique's description.
You can't equate it with a conventional drain. The technique is unblockable for a reason. [/B]
Also: double standards: Plagueis's Midichlorian chat can be blocked, but Nihilus's drain can't. Even though there's far more basis establishing the second can be dropped.
You claiming drain is unblockable when it's been shown otherwise with a technique nigh identical. Fanboyism much? You're a great example of what happens whne someone lets nothing but fanboyism rule their mind. Blah blah, ancients rule all, we've heard this song before.
Originally posted by Nephthys
How does that have anything to do with Nihilus and Trayas technique? They are not the same thing. As I've already explained to you their technique involves a different process, seen here:"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes."
You can't equate it with a conventional drain. The technique is unblockable for a reason.
I’m still unsure why you believe that is so different from a regular drain. By its very nature shouldn’t being drained of the Force result in one being cut off from it? After all, upon being drained completely there would be no force energy left inside the entity which should constitute them being cut off from it.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
He doesn't have to. Their technique is Force Drain. Hell, that's even listed under the campaign guide
How much sense does it make for it to be the same thing as Force Drain when any Jedi in the game can learn Force Drain whenever the hell they want? Why would the Exile need to be told about an ability that you can use whenever you want? Any goddamn Sith can use Force Drain. What they do is as far above that as Sidious' Force Storm is above regular Force Lightning.
You'll note that Force Strom can refer to multiple techniques as well.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yes. And he only sensed Plagueis's attempt to heal due to his speicalized training
Was this when Palpatine was killing him?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Fantasticl. Except that's a [b]basic description for force drain. Good god, when Vitiate did the same thing? You're doing nothing but bandying semantics over the technique's description.[/b]
Is this the same basic description for Force Drain as well:
'As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely.'
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Well, actually it's not. You're telling me in 4000 years, the Jedi never so much as researched a potential defense? You don't find it coincidental the life/force draining Thought Bomb was imparted by Revan who studied at...oh...Malachor V?
If theres a defence, theres no evidence for it.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Also: double standards: Plagueis's Midichlorian chat can be blocked, but Nihilus's drain can't. Even though there's far more basis establishing the second can be dropped.You claiming drain is unblockable when it's been shown otherwise with a technique nigh identical. Fanboyism much? You're a great example of what happens whne someone lets nothing but fanboyism rule their mind. Blah blah, ancients rule all, we've heard this song before.
How the **** are they even close to being identical you lunatic? Heres what the Thought Bomb does:
Heres what the 'Gaga Drain' does:
You might notice that theres a slight difference. Nihilus and the Exile also are shown using the technique in ways beyond the conventional draining of the Force. For example at the very start of the game Atton notes on more than one occasion that he can't seem to not do whatever you want to do:
And the Jedi Council notes:
“Have you noticed that when you act, others follow? Those that travel with you... they follow you, without question. Without hesitation.”
“Against their instincts, and sometimes against their sense.”
And then the Exile says that its because shes a leader and they say no, its to do with her ability with Force Bonds, which as this quote points out:
'As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely.'
As well as this:
Is fundamental to the technique that the Exile uses, which is the same one that Nihilus and Kreia use. You can see evidence for this in Nihilus' Force Slaves. So yes, due to teh facts that it doesn't work the same way, it isn't used the same way, it has different effects and it doesn't have the same end effect it is absolutely 100% different from the Thought Bomb as well as other variation on Force Drain.