ROTS Sidious vs. Lord Vitiate

Started by EdgeOfTheMoment7 pages

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And I suppose that this does not represents Revan's opinion:

She still wasn't sure what to make of Lord Scourge. She had sensed that his offer to work together was sincere, though she wondered how much of that was Revan's doing. It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met. And she knew how charismatic he could be.

Correct, the viewpoint character tends to change from chapter to chapter in Star Wars books. Some passages operate from Revan's perspective, some from Surik's, and others from Scourge's.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Yes, that IS the Exile's opinion and it is 100% valid because this is her perspective.

Correct.

Thanks for telling me I'm correct when I was stating the obvious🙂

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Thanks for telling me I'm correct when I was stating the obvious🙂

You're welcome.

Jeez, get a room you two.

We can't, he can't seem to get out of yours.

I lost the keys to my cuffs. Sue me. (Don't sue me)

They're probably in your G-string that you'll force Gideon to remove... With his teeth.

That sounds really uncomfortable. Keys inside a G-string? Talk about wedging.

not to mention challenging!

I'm not willing to contradict anyone at this point (mainly because I'm about to crack open my English Lit book and lose part of my soul) but for the record, I have read "Revan". If you were paying close attention here and elsewhere, you might realize that I stated I read it along with other SW books over the holidays.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I'm not willing to contradict anyone at this point (mainly because I'm about to crack open my English Lit book and lose part of my soul)

My sympathies. If you require further evidence, Borbarad has probably made dozens of posts that were very convincing.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
but for the record, I have read "Revan".

Sure you did.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
If you were paying close attention here and elsewhere, you might realize that I stated I read it along with other SW books over the holidays.

Yeah, I know. I'm just as skeptical about you as you are that I did.

Originally posted by EdgeOfTheMoment
Yeah, I know. I'm just as skeptical about you as you are that I did.

wut

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
wut

Exactly.

Did somebody call for my assistance here? Oh. Literature analysis. Fun time incoming.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Novels represent the stories of the characters. They represent their world in a sense. Novels are written in a manner that the readers do not get the feeling that they are reading guides or encyclopedias.

Captain obvious to the rescue. You forgot to mention, that novels are texts, which are written by combining sentences, which are combinations of words, which usually are built by using letters. If that statement is a demonstration of your level of competence in literature analysis, you should stop arguing and go get some education.


The actual opinions of characters are typically mentioned in quotes.

In short: No.
Most of the characters thoughts and opinions do happen outside the quotes, which are there to allow dialogue with other characters. You're actually implying, that characters within fiction have to vocalize every single thought / opinion they have. Obviously, that is nonsense.


However, novels can contain texts that directly convey the intended message of the author to the readers. The author attempts to give readers a snapshot of events with these types of texts.

Apparently, you have a hard time recognizing the perspective from which certain things are narrated. Let me explain that, using the quote that you have introduced yourself:

Revan couldn't actually remember any of his battles against the Mandalorians; they were buried in the part of his mind that had been locked away when the Jedi Council turned him against Malak. But he had studied up on his own history enough to fill in the missing details from Canderous's narrative.

In battle after battle, Revan had led the Jedi and Republic forces to victory. Realizing defeat was inevitable, Mandalore the Ultimate had challenged Revan to single combat, and Revan had accepted. Though the Mandalorian fought valiantly, in the end he was no match for the Jedi Order's most powerful champion. But it wasn't enough for Revan to simply defeat his enemy.

Emphasis mine.
What is the context here? What is the situation of communication that is presented to us by the author? Taking a look to the parts that I've highlighted, you might be able to figure out, that this entire passage represents Revan's thoughts. First, he can't remember, then he studies some history, which allows him to fill the gaps. The next paragraph is the result of that "filling of gaps". It is the version of what happened as Revan has puzzled it together. That doesn't mean, that it has to be correct.

We are getting a sneakpeak of some events that occurred during the Mandalorian Wars in the above text, which also represent the opinion of the author.

Really?
What I see there, is a character thinking about his own past. Whether or not this version is correct or matches the opinion of the author can't be verfied in that situation. You see: An author could use a "true omniscient" narrator to introduce "facts" into his story. Even by just utilizing another perspective (e.g. another character within the story) he could have made the content of the narration above more "objective". Yet, he choses to let us take a look into Revan's thoughts about his own history.

And, in fact, we are pretty much confronted with a little contradiction here: Revan, in times of the Mandalorian Wars, was no servant of the Jedi Order any longer. He went to war against Orders of the Jedi Council and pretty much went to the Dark Side (by exploring Malachor V) before the end of said war. So, rather than giving us "facts", we are confronted with a very Revan-friendly interpretation of historic events. Something to expected from a character thinking about himself but not from a truely omniscient narrator. 😉


In addition, there can be descriptions that represent the feelings of characters in a certain situation, as you pointed below by using the example of Vitiate.

Excuse me. Most contemporary fiction is written in form of third person limited narration, in which the narrator talks from the point of view of one or multiple persons within the story, using their opinions, views, thoughts. This is, clearly, also the case with almost all SW works, including the one you've quoted - which I just demonstrated above. So there aren't just "certain situations" in which the feelings of characters apply - the entire narration is written from the perspective of the characters and, hence, always coined by their thoughts and feelings.


My opinions are based on nuetral perspective. I analyze each expression and then try to grasp their context.

Sorry, Sir.
You obviously ignore context and your personal perspective is most certainly not a "neutral" one, because you have some opinion, you're trying to defend here, which excludes yourself from the realm of neutrality.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I would go ahead and say.
1. Vitiate 6/10
2. Sidious 10/10 (Vitiate lacks feats)
3. Sidious 6/10

This. Although I am a bit hesitant to even give Vitiate the force battle. Although Vitiate has displayed mind control powers on others on a scale that ROTS has not yet demonstrated, I doubt he will be mind controling Darth Sidious anytime soon. By the age of 17, Palpatine had raised psychic walls so strong that they were impenetrable for Plagueis, who was one of the most powerful force user of that time (this was before Palpatine had any training at all). Later on during Palpatine's apprenticeship, him and Plagueis, as Lightsnake has brought out in another thread, went on to challenge the force for sovereignty, and by the power of their will they managed to succeed in causing an imbalance in favor of the dark side, without being destroyed by the force.

Sidious lightning at this point was powerful enough to reduce a giant sith worm to ash, and strong enough to rip Yoda's lightsaber from his hands. Sidious also took on the full brunt of his own lightning to the face without it even weakening him, the same exact lightning that nearly overwhelmed Windu's lightsaber defense. Vitiate would have some serious trouble trying to overcome Sidious with the force, whereas Sidious holds a huge advantage with a lightsaber.

Palpatine had raised psychic walls so strong that they were impenetrable for Plagueis, who was one of the most powerful force user of that time

So? Vitiate ruled a planet and was destroying sith lords by 13. What's your point?

Vitiate has shown mind powers on a level unlike anything we have ever seen in the mythos. His force lightning is arguably stronger as well.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
So? Vitiate ruled a planet and was destroying sith lords by 13. What's your point?

The sentences around that one help establish what educated people called 'context'. By examining context, one increases one's chances of understanding his opponent's point.

As an example, your opponent might be trying to insinuate that since a teenage, untrained Palpatine's mind was "impenetrable" to a powerful Sith Lord, it may provide something of a challenge for Vitiate to subjugate an older, stronger, better trained Palpatine.

An idea that your response (Vitiate ruling a planet and killing his father) doesn't address.

Originally posted by CityOfHope
The sentences around that one help establish what educated people called 'context'. By examining context, one increases one's chances of understanding his opponent's point.

As an example, your opponent might be trying to insinuate that since a teenage, untrained Palpatine's mind was "impenetrable" to a powerful Sith Lord, it may provide something of a challenge for Vitiate to subjugate an older, stronger, better trained Palpatine.


Context is lovely but since we don't know how powerful Plagueis' mind domination skills were and we DO have an idea of Vitiate's, this particular context is irrelevant.

An idea that your response (Vitiate ruling a planet and killing his father) doesn't address. [/B]

Detailing his power as barely a teenager.

Dr McBeefington
Context is lovely but since we don't know how powerful Plagueis' mind domination skills were and we DO have an idea of Vitiate's, this particular context is irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant; there is an obvious and direct relation between young&untrained!Palpatine's "impenetrable" mind and the argument that Vitiate will certainly subjugate him. The fact that Plagueis's ability to mentally dominate others is unknown does not negate the connection, it simply means that what is impenetrable to Plagueis may not be impenetrable to Vitiate.

But then it wasn't introduced as conclusive proof against Vitiate's ability to do that, it was simply offered as an explanation as to why Sidious66 believes the way he does.

Dr McBeefington
Detailing his power as barely a teenager.

By your reckoning, because Sidious is not the Sith Lord in question whom Vitiate murdered nor are his powers detailed, this is as irrelevant as Sidious66's remarks.

Since I deemed his comment irrelevant (due to both Plagueis being an unknown and me never stating that Vitiate would surely dominate Sidious), I started comparing power levels at their teenage years.