ROTS Sidious vs. Lord Vitiate

Originally posted by Nephthys
So where does the 'Palpatine and Plagueis had to keep the Force itself from killing them in return from unbalancing it' part come in?

Here is the passage:

"The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged ethnic war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force’s proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood and stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from his throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended."

Originally posted by Nephthys
Did it react at all?

Plagueis believes it created Anakin.

Didn't GL state that it didn't?

Don't think so... But it is ambigious in the book as at one point Plagueis attempts to create a "Forceful being" and this attempt could be Anakin despite the fact that Plagueis feels nothing.

Lucas left it intentionally ambiguous for the fans.

Just a reminder, DS: you've yet to respond to the final post on the previous page.

You'll probably want to take this to the other forum if you want to converse unmolested.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You'll probably want to take this to the other forum if you want to converse unmolested.

hehe molesting.

Yeah, I definitely would but it started here. Once Janus gets off his lazy bum ass and completes the transition by validating all of the registered accounts, my presence will no longer haunt this place. But the conversation started here and I figured I'd make it easier on DS to explain himself without switching forums.

It's not your bias, potential or actual, that's the problem. Everyone here is biased on one topic or another. It's the way you treat those who disagree with your vision of Vitiate in conjunction your reluctance to provide actual arguments.

The only time I have treated someone less than fairly was when they put forth some baseless pro PT agenda. I don't recall dismissing good arguments. Also, I stand by my statement that I never claimed Vitiate was superior to DE Sidious. That is another discussion.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
The only time I have treated someone less than fairly was when they put forth some baseless pro PT agenda.

Mizukage_Yoda's posts hardly reek of "baseless pro-PT agenda." Rather than rebut his posts, you took blatant potshots at him and refused to engage.

On the other hand, if all you were doing was pointing out flaws in arguments or calling people out on their biases, why didn't you do so with SW_LeGenD? His history of "bias" is far more blatant than Mizukage's.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I don't recall dismissing good arguments. Also, I stand by my statement that I never claimed Vitiate was superior to DE Sidious. That is another discussion.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Then again, I've always acknowledged that he wasn't above DE Sidious.

^ This was the claim you made on the previous thread. There is a critical difference between "acknowledging that Vitiate isn't above DE Sidious" and "never claiming Vitiate was superior to DE Sidious." By arguing semantics, you may be able to prove the latter, but your posts elsewhere contradict the former, previous claim: twice in two pages you insinuated that Vitiate had surpassed Palpatine:

you
Assuming the "legends" are true though, the sith emperor moves up to number one.

^ Page nine of that thread. Perhaps there are more, I can't remember.

The bottom line, though, is that bias isn't an issue for me. Your attitude and tactics, which are driven by that bias, are. I'm biased, Lucius is biased, Nai is biased, Janus is biased, even LeGenD is biased: the difference is that they're willing to provide arguments rather than snipe and insult from the background.

It's silly that you do that if the truth of your opinions is so obvious. You should be able to develop those ideas through discourse. Even nitpicking would be preferable to what you're doing now.

Originally posted by Tantra
Mizukage_Yoda's posts hardly reek of "baseless pro-PT agenda." Rather than rebut his posts, you took blatant potshots at him and refused to engage.

On the other hand, if all you were doing was pointing out flaws in arguments or calling people out on their biases, why didn't you do so with SW_LeGenD? His history of "bias" is far more blatant than Mizukage's.

^ This was the claim you made on the previous thread. There is a critical difference between "acknowledging that Vitiate isn't above DE Sidious" and "never claiming Vitiate was superior to DE Sidious." By arguing semantics, you may be able to prove the latter, but your posts elsewhere contradict the former, previous claim: twice in two pages you insinuated that Vitiate had surpassed Palpatine:

The bottom line, though, is that bias isn't an issue for me. Your attitude and tactics, which are driven by that bias, are. I'm biased, Lucius is biased, Nai is biased, Janus is biased, even LeGenD is biased: the difference is that they're willing to provide arguments rather than snipe and insult from the background.

DS
Because many of the dumbasses on this forum play a game of "i'll just keep on making posts until the other party tires out, and declare a victory". I just skipped all that rabble.

DS
No, what the majority of you do is continue posting, as stated above. [...] but that's a hell of a lot better than spending 50 pages regurgitating arguments people believe to be valid.

For ten pages in the DE Sidious vs. Vitiate thread (can't link it; low post count), you and I went back and forth, and that was fairly recent. Do you consider yourself among those 'dumbasses'? Because it seems to me that there's no shortage of threads in which you've argued with or insulted your opponents exhaustively.

DS
DE Sidious? Or Sidious.

Given your use of qualifying statements like "number one" and "superiority", context dictates all the above: Clearly ROTS Sidious isn't number one, since DE Sidious was more more learned and ultimately more powerful. So if Vitiate is "number one" then he'd have to be more powerful than any incarnation of Sidious.

DS
I may look like a jackass because I'm direct,

Direct isn't an issue. You can be direct by minimizing excess verbiage; Lord knows that I've been far more direct in the past year because, like you, I'm largely uninterested in spending dozens and dozens of pages arguing back and forth. Which is why my output has decreased tremendously and why, if you recall or search, I usually make a point to cut to the meat of an argument.

There is a difference between being direct and being an ass. Being direct requires cutting to the heart of the matter, making your case, and moving on if and when you feel the opponent isn't getting it. But in this case, you return to all threads Vitiate and take your shots, but refuse to actually "make the case." That's not being direct, that's being an ass. You make the time to post multiple insults to these people, but can't take the time to actually defend your views? Why?

Nitpicking is fine; Zamp. doesn't like it, but it's a valid form of debate: a person's overall point can be correct and yet there can be the presence of false or dishonest details within his or her argument.

Which is my point: argue what thread you want, however you want, for whomever you want, but don't be an ass. Make the case, counselor.

Originally posted by Tantra
For ten pages in the DE Sidious vs. Vitiate thread (can't link it; low post count), you and I went back and forth, and that was fairly recent. Do you consider yourself among those 'dumbasses'? Because it seems to me that there's no shortage of threads in which you've argued with or insulted your opponents exhaustively.

Given your use of qualifying statements like "number one" and "superiority", context dictates all the above: Clearly ROTS Sidious isn't number one, since DE Sidious was more more learned and ultimately more powerful. So if Vitiate is "number one" then he'd have to be more powerful than any incarnation of Sidious.

Direct isn't an issue. You can be direct by minimizing excess verbiage; Lord knows that I've been far more direct in the past year because, like you, I'm largely uninterested in spending dozens and dozens of pages arguing back and forth. Which is why my output has decreased tremendously and why, if you recall or search, I usually make a point to cut to the meat of an argument.

There is a difference between being direct and being an !@#$%^&*. Being direct requires cutting to the heart of the matter, making your case, and moving on if and when you feel the opponent isn't getting it. But in this case, you return to all threads Vitiate and take your shots, but refuse to actually "make the case."

Which is my point: argue what thread you want, however you want, for whomever you want, but don't be an !@#$%^&*. Make the case, counselor. [/B]

DS
I don't recall us going back and forth over Vitiate and DE Sidious.

Again, I can't link. But the thread is on this page, and we begin debating on page 9 and don't stop 'til page 20.

DS
You're kidding right? You're more than willing to spend pages arguing.

Not dozens of pages and certainly not with the zeal of someone like LeGenD or Nephthys or Lightsnake. Not anymore, anyways.

DS
You're going to have to be more precise with exactly what I said. I recall arguing against ROTS Sidious but not DE Sidious.

From the Revan Spoilers thread at ROK:

you, page 8
Also, how do we even consider Palpatine's superiority in the mythos when we're now faced with a demigod?

you, page 9
Assuming the "legends" are true though, the sith emperor moves up to number one.

DS
There's no real point anymore. Unless I'm arguing with the likes of you, Janus, Nai, or the homosexual (could be all of you), I'm wasting my time. The other clowns just post retarded arguments, congratulate themselves, then post them again.

If there's no real point anymore, then why take the time and energy to trash talk and insult and take potshots?

SW_LeGenD is one of, if not the, most obstinate posters I've ever encountered on the whole of KMC. And you know how I handle him now? I don't talk to him. I don't bother arguing with him and I don't insult him. If a person isn't worth your time, then ignore them. Because anything else contradicts that idea.

DS
I tend to make my case then insult. To me, it's far quicker than failing at an argument, then continuing to argue the same thing.

I'm not asking you to argue for pages and pages and pages. What I'm asking for is for you to stop bashing people whose opinions differ from you, at least if you won't or can't be bothered to provide an argument yourself. If you want to criticize or nitpick instead of getting into multi-post arguments, fine, but spare everyone the insults.

That's all I'm asking and I think that's fair.

@ Tantra

Mind your own business. If you don't talk to me then no need to quote me again and again in your posts.

I am not biased and base my assumptions on sound logic, if no evidence is available.

I use the below analogy to highlight the difference between people like you and me:

It is people like you who came up with 'grenades and guns' based argument to represent Revan before his novel came out. The wiser ones like me argued that Revan was a Jedi and would have used 'lightsaber and the Force' to accomplish his feats.

Guess what? My views are now in line with established canon.

First judge yourself before you judge others.

See? He generously provides an example to help illuminate my point. It would be painfully easy to point out the endless examples of his bias, as others have done before. It would be easy to insult him, mock him, ridicule him, and ensure that no one takes him seriously. That's what I used to do when he first started posting.

But now it's easy to nod, smile, and move on.

Originally posted by Tantra
See? He generously provides an example to help illuminate my point. It would be painfully easy to point out the endless examples of his bias, as others have done before. It would be easy to insult him, mock him, ridicule him, and ensure that no one takes him seriously. That's what I used to do when he first started posting.

But now it's easy to nod, smile, and move on.

Only difference is that fans of PT/OT assume that they are wiser and not biased.

In the past; while I have provided my share of views, I still treaded within the boundary of the established canon. I accepted that Luke is the strongest Jedi in whole of mythos. However, I have an official source which contradicts with this assumption. Open your eyes. Star Wars is not so black and white.

I have also come to learn that there is a history of misrepresentation of canonical materials and information here and even members like Lightsnake are guilty of it.

I have explored Star Wars related material and now am capable of exposing the propaganda of PT/OT fans.

Want me to quote examples? Such lies will no longer work against me and I will expose them at any given opportunity.

I try to be as nuetral as possible. Unfortunately, biased PT/OT fans would not recognize this because they want me to accept their beliefs without questions.

Stop squabbling boys please.

Will you spank me if I don't stop?

YouTube video

Thats right pig. And heres the paddle!

Thanks Neph. I like your humor.

Even though you often disappoint me with that b b bra in of yours.