Poll
63%
38%
DE Sidious Versus Darth Caedus
Versus
Setting:
This battle takes place away from Palpatine's Dark Side Nexus, but he is in a young Clone body and Peaking in power.
Caedus is likewise Peaked in power, and ready to go.
They both will battle in Palpatine's Office, for supremacy as Sith Lords.
1. Saber
2. Force
3. All. Out.
Who survives this bloody matchup?
It's really weird, if you do the math then DE Sidious really is overrated.
DE Sidious knows every power, supposedly, however, no matter what he can't seem to overcome a Pre-Jedi Academy(even) Luke and his friends.
He constantly struggles, getting killed off here and there, and later when Leia starts glowing like a radioactive cockroach, suddenly Luke rapes him.
This same Luke became more experienced and had trouble with the likes of an inexperienced lizard with an ego.
Then Caedus comes along and is able to handily defeat an uber-experienced Kyle Katarn (Who could likely narrowly defeat DE Luke, who defeated DE Sidious) along with a few other Jedi Knights, and he proceeds to give "Most Epic Version of Luke in Existence" hell, before finally being defeated.
Doing a bit of rough/basic math would indicate Caedus would at least defeat DE Sidious narrowly making Caedus and Not Sidious the deadliest Sith Lord in history, next to Darth Galactus.
Where does Darth Bane fit in with all this?
We know he would crush Desann, whereas a Post-DE Luke could not, and we know through basic math, that if he were at peak-power; wearing orbalisks and at close range (Out of range of Force Storms) he would likely also defeat DE Sidious narrowly.
The real question would realistically, and in actuality, be Darth Bane versus Darth Caedus as (based off of actual killing-ability and not "possible" feats) most powerful Sith Lord.
That fight could probably go either way, I don't know.
However, if the "Force Storm" thing is supposed to be Palpy's real reason for the "Most powerful Sith Lord in history" thing, as long as we're going off actual capability and not brag or Writer's Fiat, then Darth Galactus would trump Sidious, with his ability to kill the life on an entire world in a whisper.
Then again, N is basically just an energetic-consciousness infused into armor, so perhaps Sidious just counts as the most destructive Sith Lord in an organic form.
Still not the deadliest though, aside from the Force Storm. 📖
Sabers:
Tough one. Sidious as of RotS demonstrated ability to go toe-in-toe with Yoda and Windu, not to mention him owning 3 “celebrated swordsmen” within seconds. I’d assume DE Sidious would be at least on par with his RotS self, if not slightly superior due to his younger body.
Caedus’s saber skills, on the other hand, were second only to Luke’s. He defeated handily Jedi team, giving Kyle Katarn a run for his money.
I’d give an edge here to Sidious, but it’s really almost too close to call.
Force:
Even if we exclude the influence of Dark Side Nexus, still I’d think Sidious’s Force powers are at least as good as at the time of RotS.
Caedus is also powerful. Possibly more powerful than Darth Vader (IIRC book cover claimed this). However, I don’t think that Sidious would be pinned down to a chair in a fashion Luke held Caedus.
In Force contest an edge to Sidious.
All-out:
Decent match-up, pretty close IMHO.
DE Sidious takes 6/10.
Sabers - Probably Caedus.
Force - Definitely Sidious. The reason is simple. Caedus unlike other Sith used only his inner potential, while Sidious fed on suffering of others, draining life energy from whole planet and various dark rituals. Simple fact that Sidious blows up instead of simply dying already proves that.
All out - Toss up. There are several things to consider. Sidious is superior in power, yet, Caedus' defenses are superior enough to nullify effect, though he would be on defensive most of the time. Sidious is far more evil and angry, which gives him another credit in terms of power, yet, it puts extreme toll on his body. While Jacen is as self-controlled during fight as a Jedi and gets only stronger experiencing pain.
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
The claims you make are entirely unsupported and appeals to "basic math" aren't equitable to canonical evidence. You might as well have finished every sentence with "...because I say so." At least it would be a little more honest.
What parts are you confused about? 🙄
Originally posted by axel_jovan
[b]Sabers:
Tough one. Sidious as of RotS demonstrated ability to go toe-in-toe with Yoda and Windu, not to mention him owning 3 “celebrated swordsmen” within seconds. I’d assume DE Sidious would be at least on par with his RotS self, if not slightly superior due to his younger body.Caedus’s saber skills, on the other hand, were second only to Luke’s. He defeated handily Jedi team, giving Kyle Katarn a run for his money.
I’d give an edge here to Sidious, but it’s really almost too close to call.
Force:
Even if we exclude the influence of Dark Side Nexus, still I’d think Sidious’s Force powers are at least as good as at the time of RotS.Caedus is also powerful. Possibly more powerful than Darth Vader (IIRC book cover claimed this). However, I don’t think that Sidious would be pinned down to a chair in a fashion Luke held Caedus.
In Force contest an edge to Sidious.
All-out:
Decent match-up, pretty close IMHO.DE Sidious takes 6/10. [/B]
Not a bad outlook, actually.
In basic terms, though, Caedus would very, very likely put DE Luke out of commission - something DE Sidious couldn't handle.
I'd definitely see Caedus beating Sidious in a close lightsaber duel, though. Reasonably close.
Force-wise, I don't remember any impressive TK feats for Sidious in Dark Empire.
Baring something more impressive than his PT days, I think it's reasonable to say that LotF Luke could probably restrain Sidious in a manner similar to Caedus, if Sidious didn't have the aid of his Nexus.
Force-wise, it's a close call with he and Caedus; this time with the slight edge going to Sidious.
All Out seems like it would be Caedus narrowly - what with Sidious not being able to safely deploy a Force Storm in such a narrow space.
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
The part where you think your unsupported claims and appeals to common sense constitute fact... which, if I'm not mistaken, was what got you into trouble on another thread not too long ago.If you make a claim, support the claim.
Really? Which thread was that? I recall a thread where I brought up an apparent unknown tidbit of knowledge, and after some initial disbelief, everyone silently conceded to the fact that they had learned something new about Jedi/Sith lore.
And yes, my earlier post on this thread was very much about simple observations based upon common sense, which by it's very nature is rational and logical.
Pretty much everyone here is aware, that the later Peak-Evolved heavy-hitter characters in LotF could at least narrowly defeat DE Luke.
People aren't so stupid that I have to lay out every simple fact for them.
Battlemaster
Really? Which thread was that? I recall a thread where I brought up an apparent unknown tidbit of knowledge, and after some initial disbelief, everyone silently conceded to the fact that they had learned something new about Jedi/Sith lore.
I recall this thread, in which you were brought to task by pretty much every single remaining regular poster on this forum for your blatant lack of evidence.
Battlemaster
And yes, my earlier post on this thread was very much about simple observations based upon common sense, which by it's very nature is rational and logical.
Battlemaster
Pretty much everyone here is aware, that the later Peak-Evolved heavy-hitter characters in LotF could at least narrowly defeat DE Luke.
Battlemaster
People aren't so stupid that I have to lay out every simple fact for them.
Everything you've described is textbook logical fallacy. Make your claim, support your claim. Relying solely on transient consensus is inept.
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
I recall this thread, in which you were brought to task by pretty much every single remaining regular poster on this forum for your blatant lack of evidence.
Yeah - and then they realized I was Right (with a few posters going so far as to admit it) after a while and dropped their arguments.
They're not idiots. They back-checked what I posted and saw that it was true.
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Everything you've described is textbook logical fallacy. Make your claim, support your claim. Relying solely on transient consensus is inept.
I'm saying that the top-tier Heavy Hitters of LotF, which are the most powerful versions of people like Caedus and Kyle, could definitely narrowly defeat a far more inferior version of Luke.
Basically, having a brain and eyes tells you that. You don't need a super-computer or a note signed in blood by George Lucas to tell you that.
If you're saying otherwise, then you're essentially saying that DE Luke is as powerful as LotF Luke, which in itself is unsupported and fallacious.
Go get me some proof stating that DE Luke is as powerful as his Peak-evolved incarnation some 20 years later, and then we'll talk. 📖
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Yeah - and then they realized I was Right (with a few posters going so far as to admit it) after a while and dropped their arguments.
By even the most crass standards of e-peen brinksmanship, you've got no ground to stand on.
Spoiler:
That argument boiled down to a shouting match while ignoring the distinction between necessary and sufficient conditions which had provoked the confusion in the first place. It's hardly a crowning achievement of discourse, let alone a successful first step in a campaign to invade a message board.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Go get me some proof stating that DE Luke is as powerful as his Peak-evolved incarnation some 20 years later, and then we'll talk. 📖
Protip: None of us (with the possible exception of DP) have the energy or inclination to indulge in a protracted internet-war. We've thrashed out positions and lines of argumentation on most topics and most disputes consist of shorthand references to memories of such arguments. What I'm saying is that the orthodoxy has ossified into a fairly coherent body politik.
If you want to win the internet, it'll take a fair bit of effort to get anyone to confront you in a line-by-line dispute, let alone sway the opinion of the masses. Might I suggest that you try a little more humilitytact and at the very least substantiate your claims?
Force-wise, I don't remember any impressive TK feats for Sidious in Dark Empire.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Yeah - and then they realized I was Right (with a few posters going so far as to admit it) after a while and dropped their arguments.They're not idiots. They back-checked what I posted and saw that it was true.
Cf. Zampanó's thorough address of this point.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
I'm saying that the top-tier Heavy Hitters of LotF, which are the most powerful versions of people like Caedus and Kyle, could definitely narrowly defeat a far more inferior version of Luke.
And that Nihilus could defeat Sidious. And that Bane could defeat Sidious. And that Caedus would defeat Sidious. And that Bane would crush Desann. All claims for which you've provided zero evidence.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Basically, having a brain and eyes tells you that. You don't need a super-computer or a note signed in blood by George Lucas to tell you that.
No, but you do need evidence. You haven't provided any. Appeals to common sense, basic math, and other expressions of the same concept constitute a fallacious [read: wrong] argument.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
If you're saying otherwise,
Have I?
Originally posted by Battlemaster
then you're essentially saying that DE Luke is as powerful as LotF Luke, which in itself is unsupported and fallacious.
This is a blatant strawman.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Go get me some proof stating that DE Luke is as powerful as his Peak-evolved incarnation some 20 years later, and then we'll talk. 📖
I haven't made a single claim about any of this and, as such, have no need to prove anything. I'm extremely clever that way.
then you're essentially saying that DE Luke is as powerful as LotF Luke, which in itself is unsupported and fallacious.
Originally posted by BattlemasterI'm saying that the top-tier Heavy Hitters of LotF, which are the most powerful versions of people like Caedus and Kyle, could definitely narrowly defeat a far more inferior version of Luke.
Basically, having a brain and eyes tells you that.
DE Luke would tool those guys.
Its obvious to anyone with eyes and brains. It's common sense and the only logical conclusion to reach.
Spoiler:
Annoying isn't it?
they stopped responding because you're boring.