DE Sidious Versus Darth Caedus

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This again. You do realize, Darth Powah, that you entirely failed to prove an argument. It wasn't your conclusion I was entirely unwilling to see; it was the way in which you said "It's self-evident; therefore, it's true. Addendum to this, I saw it, therefore it is true. LOL at your credibility."

If I just said it was self-evident, so that's the end of the story, then you'd have a point here. But I went on to explain in detail how it was self-evident.

You put everything down to Savage's temporary rage, whilst I pointed out several scenes that showed he was superior to Obi-Wan even before his rage, in the Force and in Lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose

[b]You:

"Lol how could anyone possibly give wisdom to a guy who just denies clear evidence shown to him on screen.

If Lucas told you himself Oppress is a good tier above the likes of Obi-Wan/Ventress you'd still deny it. You'd probably rationalise your denial by saying he wasn't making a canon statement, or whatever crap you usually come out with to justify your insane arguments.". [/B]

So to you this is a big insult?

I believe I said after you made excuses for Savage's force feat of pushing that ship off the cliff. You were saying it's not beyond Obi-Wan (without evidence) and you were lowballing the feat saying he only pushed the stands of the ship (which wouldn't make much difference anyway, because it would still be carrying the ship's weight).

My point was, even though Im sure your not always like this, in that particular thread you were being particularly biased, lowballing and resorting to petty insults.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose

Keep in mind you engaged in e-battle after I had already spent many pages attempting to get some better reason out of Gideon, who, for all his PT-era excess of knowledge, could not see some of the same gaping flaws that you apparently fell for as well. Already annoyed with his inability to provide a cohesive argument for himself, then you leap in with the grace of a leper ewok and mangle the English language while chirping the same mindless rhetoric again and again.

Your memory of that debate is fascinating to me!

No Gideon gave good points. Then when I came along I actually concentrated on different points to him. He was focused more on the little tumble they had on Toydaria, stating he seemed to outclass them both whilst concentrating on the King.
Whilst my argument focused on his Force Prowess in pushing the ship one handed (pre-rage) and forcing Count Dooku to the floor in close combat (pre-rage). Two things which I constantly kept pointing out Obi-Wan has never managed. (Or even come close to achieving anything similar).

His post-rage feats were too ridiculous to even begin to make a comparison of him and Obi-Wan.

Then me and Gideon both pointed out that your argument is quite baseless considering the whole episode Obi-Wan never once showed superiority to Savage. Whilst Savage did on more than one occasion.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
As much as it pains me dearly to not have won your e-respect, the point remains that you and I had not spoken in months if not years before that thread. Your instant-aggression followed by a pathetic excuse of "Nuh uh, I think this, therefore it is" fully paved the way for being insulted out of hand as "not worth debating", because at that point you've moved from some kind of objective reasoning to simply repeating your assertions and attacking the opposition.

This isn't to say that I hate you or anything; I genuinely don't. I just think you couldn't debate your way out of a wet paper bag, so seeing you say things I can't help but think it's like Flo Rida or Diane Sawyer telling a neurosurgeon how to do their job.

First I wouldn't say it was instant aggression. More like frustration at how this could even be a debate.

I'm sure you would find it annoying if someone made a thread of Obi-Wan vs Count Dooku, and attempted to lowball every feat the Good Count had ever done and made excuses for every time Obi-Wan lost to the Count.

It's cool Stealth I don't hate you either. If you think I'm a bad debator, that's fine as well. I've actually found debating on these SW threads has improved by debating skills in general. So I won't cry myself to sleep if you think that I'm really that bad.

And tbh your right, before that thread I don't remember the last time I had debated with you.

But I've seen you in other threads and I actaully don't think your all that bad Stealth! Just from my point of view with that being my main memory of you I certainly wasn't going to agree to your alleged superiority over Gideon, especially coming from someone who never once provides evidence and back's up all their arguments with "because I think so, and I know SW so well, go do your research." (Battlemaster not you).

Just checked. This was my first post on the thread.

Originally posted by Me
Saying Oppress is considerably more powerful than the likes of Obi-Wan and Ventress is Fanboyism??

The CW episodes made that clear. If you cant see that then the problem here isnt Oppress fanboyism, but Oppress Haters..

I was reacting to you calling Gideon an Opress fanboy simply for stating his abilities were beyond Obi-Wan or Ventress, something conclusively proven in the last episode. So what he was saying was true and people were trying to point that out to you from the load of evidence already pointing in that direction. But you just weren't listening.

Anyway This was your reply:

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Let's have a moment of silence for all the times DARTH POWER has left us with gems of well-thought out wisdom.

So I would suggest it was you who took a losing argument and got personal in attacking others on that losing stance right from the start.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not bad JT. But which topic was it on? Hope you don't mind we judge for ourselves who won 😛

Had to do with Mace Windu legitimately defeating Darth Sidious (in which Gideon argued that Sidious was holding back, despite GL's statements to the contrary indicating that Mace Windu "overpowered" Sidious).

One cannot be "overpowered" when holding back. If I'm wrestling w/ my son, and I'm obviously holding back and allow him to win, it cannot accurately be said that has truly "overpowered" me.

Gideon, out of frustration regarding this analogy I suppose, chose to place me on ignore after a few rounds of posting back and forth.

Gideon is DEFINITELY one of the most thorough and effective debaters here (far better than me - I'm smart enough to pick my fights though). However, he is by no means unbeatable.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Had to do with Mace Windu legitimately defeating Darth Sidious (in which Gideon argued that Sidious was holding back, despite GL's statements to the contrary indicating that Mace Windu "overpowered" Sidious).

One cannot be "overpowered" when holding back. If I'm wrestling w/ my son, and I'm obviously holding back and allow him to win, it cannot accurately be said that has truly "overpowered" me.

Gideon, out of frustration regarding this analogy I suppose, chose to place me on ignore after a few rounds of posting back and forth.

Gideon is DEFINITELY one of the most thorough and effective debaters here (far better than me - I'm smart enough to pick my fights though). However, he is by no means unbeatable.

I used to think he purposefully lost the FL portion of the fight due to the description in the novel and Lucas saying he added the bit later with Sidious pretending to be weak.

But I think it was Borbarad who posted extracts from the script which kind of proved that both Yoda and Windu overpowered Palpatine in combat.

I also decided the whole FL debate was pointless anyway because the fact is Windu could have killed Sidious before he even began shooting his FL. The guy had his Saber to his throat.

Yes Gideon was not always right, and did show bias at times and had shit loads of pride Lol. But even fighting against him you had to appreciate his SW knowledge and like you said his thoroughness in his research of the facts.

Him and Borbarad going at it were always the best debates on these boards Imo. Because those debates were always as informative(on both sides) as they were entertaining.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Yes Gideon was not always right, and did show bias at times and had shit loads of pride Lol. But even fighting against him you had to appreciate his SW knowledge and like you said his thoroughness in his research of the facts.

Him and Borbarad going at it were always the best debates on these boards Imo. Because those debates were always as informative(on both sides) as they were entertaining.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Zampanó
Janus, one time I tried to call you out for being mean. (Maybe more than once.) Please consider that sentiment to be fully retracted and stricken from the universal record.

The lines "grace of a leper ewok," "you couldn't debate your way out of a wet paper bag," and "Diane Sawyer telling a neurosurgeon how to do their job" have entered into my personal headcanon of [b]best things ever said on KMC.

Don't ever change. [/B]

Leper Ewok would be an awesome name for a band too.

COPYRIGHTED.

DP, I'll reply something more in-depth to you later, my apologies. A crisis has appeared.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
A crisis has appeared.

They tax the internet in Canada?

Is this to fund the new maple-scented money?

Silly yank. The Maple dollars don't need funding. Syrup up here is plentiful. We replaced water with it when we realized how much you lot will pay for a bottle of Canajun spring.

And yes, they tax the internet up here. Every Google search costs me a beaver pelt. And downloading stuff? Don't even go there, not unless you breed free range polar bear.

Have you considered being an extra in a movie? They film like 10 a month in Toronto.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
DP, I'll reply something more in-depth to you later, my apologies. A crisis has appeared.

Don't worry about it. I know Avengers is out in the US now, and every US nerd is busy watching it again and again just to make up for the extra week they had to wait 😛

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I used to think he purposefully lost the FL portion of the fight due to the description in the novel and Lucas saying he added the bit later with Sidious pretending to be weak.

But I think it was Borbarad who posted extracts from the script which kind of proved that both Yoda and Windu overpowered Palpatine in combat.

Yup. That was me.

Yes Gideon was not always right, and did show bias at times and had shit loads of pride Lol. But even fighting against him you had to appreciate his SW knowledge and like you said his thoroughness in his research of the facts.

Gideon was good in researching the points favoring his opinion. Unfortunatelly, he was also rather good in ignoring the facts contradicting his ideas.

Him and Borbarad going at it were always the best debates on these boards Imo. Because those debates were always as informative(on both sides) as they were entertaining.

It's nice to know that somebody learned something along the way. 😉

Originally posted by Borbarad

It's nice to know that somebody learned something along the way. 😉

Yes! You should show up more often pal!

Btw what did you think of Dooku and Anakin's last fight in CW? People think it was a low showing for Dooku. I thought that at first as well but after watching it a few times I actually think it showed Dooku to be pretty uber.

I mean the guy fought One Handed the entire time, deflecting all Anakin's full blows with One frigging Hand! And he clearly had Angry Anakin defeated with the FL/TK combo Imo.

Borbarad
Gideon was good in researching the points favoring his opinion. Unfortunatelly, he was also rather good in ignoring the facts contradicting his ideas.

I have it on good authority that Gideon is quite flattered that he continues to define and shape the entirety of your KMC experience.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes! You should show up more often pal!

I don't know, if I should do that, while I'm rather certain that I could. Maybe.

Btw what did you think of Dooku and Anakin's last fight in CW? People think it was a low showing for Dooku. I thought that at first as well but after watching it a few times I actually think it showed Dooku to be pretty uber.

I mean the guy fought One Handed the entire time, deflecting all Anakin's full blows with One frigging Hand! And he clearly had Angry Anakin defeated with the FL/TK combo Imo. [/B]

I have to admit, that I'm currently not "up to date" when it comes to SW issues. But I suppose you're talking about their duel in episode 18 of the 4th CW season. If that's the case, I might share my opinion on it:

It seems to be correct, that Anakin is constantly driving Dooku backwards. Flooring and choking the Sith Lord, before he recovers with the FL/TK-manouver you mentioned is certainly nothing to scoff at.
However, as with all duels between Anakin and Dooku happening between Episodes II and III, we must keep the fact in mind, that Sidious probably gave Dooku the order not to kill Anakin at a very early stage of the Clone Wars, meaning the Sith Lord is probably holding back at all occasions he's facing Anakin.

While this could or could not be the case - depending on how much room you want to leave for implicit storytelling [or, as other would say, how much of a Dooku fanboy you are] - I don't see much reason for Dooku to rely on nothing but his force abilities at the very beginning of his duel. This question becomes especialy apparent, when he's using the chair to block Anakin's lightsaber for several seconds, keeping his own blade in hand deactivated, instead of - just using my imagination here - deliver a low cut to the Jedis legs / torso, against Anakin would have had absolutely no defense.

But again, this might not follow the intentions of the CW makers, whos idea of orchestrating a fight appears to be "make one side go backwards the whole time to recover with a force attack" (really...it's becoming a clichee). So it could be, that they wanted to show us that Anakin abilities with a lightsaber, fueled by his unparalleled connection to the force, have reached a point where he could be a serious threat for Dooku. However - he is still nothing compared to the Sith Lord when it comes to the force abilities department.

So at best (from Dooku's position) he is holding back and hence "loses" the lightsaber portion of the battle, while he is still able to dominate Skywalker via the Force. At worst case, the latter still applies, but instead of holding back, the Count was simple overpowerd by the raw strength of Skywalkers lightsaber technique. Either way, I don't see how anybody could say this is a low showing for Dooku. Especially since we're talking about the CW series here, which has a tendency for making the villain characters (Ventress, Grievous) look rather stupid.

Interesting post.

For what it's worth, according to Dave Filoni, Sidious is not pulling his punches with Anakin this early on in The Clone Wars. "If Dooku killed Anakin there, it just meant Anakin wouldn't be the next Sith apprentice. He's not pulling him out of battles to protect him. If he can't survive this war, he won't be a Sith Lord."

http://forcecast.net/story/topstory/Weekly_ForceCast_May_4_2012_145329.asp

^ The 15:00 mark.

Originally posted by MewlingQuim
For what it's worth, according to Dave Filoni, Sidious is not pulling his punches with Anakin this early on in The Clone Wars. "If Dooku killed Anakin there, it just meant Anakin wouldn't be the next Sith apprentice. He's not pulling him out of battles to protect him. If he can't survive this war, he won't be a Sith Lord."

http://forcecast.net/story/topstory/Weekly_ForceCast_May_4_2012_145329.asp

^ The 15:00 mark. [/B]

Firstly: I'm fortunatelly smart enough to figure out, that it was the 1:15:00 mark you were talking about. 😉

Secondly: Sticking to the usual modus operandi of a certain individual, you have forgotten to provide the context of the quote.

1)
David Filoni starts talking about the issue with the words "I don't subscribe to the idea either, that Palpatine would in any way protect Anakin". This makes very clear, that he is voicing his personal opinion and nothing more. It is also apparent that you've added the "this early in the Clone Wars" bit up there, since Filoni is talking about the entirety of the Clone Wars including the last duel between Skywalker and Dooku - for which we have canon information contradicting Filonis personal opinion.

2)
The next interesting aspect you have forgotten to mention comes after the bit you've quoted: "The Emperor [...] puts Anakin into situations, where he can tap into his anger and hate and agression." This indicates that the situation in which Anakin has to fight - especially against Dooku - he is already aproaching the state of being, that is commonly refered to as "the Zone" in this forum. If that's the case, whether Dooku is holding back or not is of little consequence.

However. In consideration of the fight between Anakin and Dooku in RotS, I find it highly unlikely that Anakin - without tapping into his potential using his darker emotions - should be able to overcome Count Dooku in a fight. And he's definitely not able to counter Dookus vastly superior command of the force, which is something apparent in all of their confrontations.

^ From what I've seen Anakin seems to begin entering his "Zone" state when the people he cares most about are in danger.

In ROTS it was Palpatine and Kenobi.

In the Mortis trilogy, it was Obi-Wan and Ashoka.

In the episode we're talking about it was just Palpatine. So it was definitely Angry Uber Anakin. Which we can tell from his line "Should have quit while you were still alive Dooku."

Also the whole confrontation has clearly been set up by Palpatine so I agree it's unlikely Palpatine gave permission to the Count to kill him. We know he wants Anakin as his apprentice. He's just waiting for him to be strong enough which he keeps testing with these fights.

So I will have to disagree with Filoni's opinion there (if that's allowed).

Also Borbarad I disagree Dooku was being out dueled by Anakin. He was giving ground, possibly being forced backwards. But it was a kick from Anakin that put Dooku to the floor.
We know from the ROTS fight that this could easily happen the other way around as well.

Also Borbarad I think when Anakin is in his full "Zone" state (like when he killed Dooku) he is also tremendously powerful in the Force.

The evidence being him dominating the Son and the Daughter with Force TK in the Mortis trilogy.

So I do think in his full "Zone" state he could quite possibly defeat any Jedi/Sith.