Battlemaster
Well, JA Luke, the Force God that he is, could have at least used TK to hurl a stone at Desann and knock him out, or at least use his mighty unstoppable TK to restrain him.In other words, utilise Jedi-tranquility while fighting and use his unstoppable Force powers to stun him - instead of being overwhelmed in combat and being buried under debris.
Somehow in his incalculable power, Luke couldn't manage to put down the temper tantrum of a novice who likely didn't have a year of training under his belt.
No one called JA!Luke a Force god, nor do you have to be one to be stronger than JA!Kyle.
LOTF!Luke, the man who telekinetically manipulated artificial black holes , slaughtered a veritable army of Yuuzhan Vong, and overpowered UnuThul in single combat was nearly killed in combat by Lumiya, a veritable pipsqueak due to her incomplete training and cyborg implants, who was in turn nearly killed by lightweight Tresina Lobi, despite assistance from rogue Jedi Alema Rar. By your reckoning, Lumiya and Tresina must each be superior to LOTF!Luke in combat.
Desann's momentary advantage owes not to superior powers, skills, or training but to Luke's restraint.
Battlemaster
I'm sure LotF Luke's power and abilities surely eclipse Peak Katarn's - however, an inferior version of Luke some two decades earlier still eclipse Katarn in killing-ability?
Given that JA!Katarn has spent even less time as a Jedi than JA!Luke and lacks Skywalker's unparalleled Force aptitude...? Yes?
Battlemaster
I'm guessing RotJ Luke is a Force God compared to Peak Katarn, too?
Despite Zampano's erudite warnings, you still rely on strawman arguments. Nowhere did I claim that ROTJ!Luke is a superior combatant to LOTF!Katarn.
Battlemaster
I'm sure if Kyle was an AT-AT he'd be in all sorts of trouble.
Almost as much as your argument's in, certainly. I suppose we can end the discussion since Kyle isn't Desann, so there's no way he could beat Luke!
Battlemaster
Not really, considering a weaker version than that of LotF Kyle, was able to defeat an enemy JA Luke couldn't handle.
I have already provided ample reasons for why JA!Luke was briefly overcome by Desann. That you deliberately neglect them in order to continue your Katarn-inspired masturbation sessions isn't my problem.
Battlemaster
I've seen people here who are able to take something incorrect and do a good job of debating about it.
It's a shame, because good debating is a skill you've yet to learn. One would think you'd better apply your voyeurism.
Battlemaster
Debating is fine, but being right is even better.
Given your lack of expertise in either area, I'm skeptical.
Battlemaster
I'd say in terms of being factually correct, Nepthys and Silent Moose hold that position.I can't even have an argument against either of them because they understand the material and know what they're talking about, so having to form a debate for the obvious is much less needed on their part.
Basically, I'm saying they're great debators. I've seen Gideon argue till he was blue in the face about stuff he was wrong about; debating about it with reams of erroneous data makes no difference.
I'd trust Nepthys or Stealth Moose over any other debator, any day.
Then you should probably plead with one of them to take the lead here.
Nonsense.
Gideon's great gift was his unassailable objectivity. Every argument was brilliantly cited, exhaustively researched, and exquisitely articulated. He courageously and cleverly identified weaknesses in his opponents' arguments: illuminated their constant use of double standards and all fled before him, wisely so, acknowledging their substantial inferiority.
And to top it off, he managed to be humble all the while. That's okay, though, I'll brag on his behalf.
He was taken much too soon.
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Nonsense.Gideon's great gift was his unassailable objectivity. Every argument was brilliantly cited, exhaustively researched, and exquisitely articulated. He courageously and cleverly identified weaknesses in his opponents' arguments: illuminated their constant use of double standards and all fled before him, wisely so, acknowledging their substantial inferiority.
And to top it off, he managed to be humble all the while. That's okay, though, I'll brag on his behalf.
He was taken much too soon.
And maybe he should have kept his unassailable objectivity to himself or someone might not have had to tip off the mods as to his return in sock form.
Hypothetically.
/butthurt
Originally posted by Nephthys
So sad that he had to die for our sins.
Gideon never struck me as the type who would be confused, or want to be confused for that matter, with a Messiah figure.
But I suppose it's not an inappropriate comparison?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also I thought Gideon was arguing against assessing information objectively.
I believe, in his final months, Gideon [objectively] determined that certain information can't be assessed objectively. I.e. opinions on subjective issues cannot be construed as factual.
Originally posted by Zampano
I suspect Battlemasterput me on ignore.
Lucky. Depending on the content of his rebuttal, he may grace my own list.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Because he had knowledge of every Sith technique, and still got whacked by Luke and/or his friends over and over again.
You're just arguing in circles.
According to you, DE Sidious is weak because he got beat by DE Luke, whilst DE Luke is weak because he had help from a padawan in defeating DE Sidious.
It's like me saying Mace Windu is weak because he had the help of 3 Jedi Masters in confronting Sidious. And Darth Sidious was weak because he lost to Mace.
Confused? Yes so am I by your arguments.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Oh, you caved to the Battle Meditation argument, eh?
It's cited in Empire's End that she used BM. That's the source you need to use for future reference.
I looked up the source myself because you had none. And I go by facts instead of just putting my faith in your half truths and speculations.
Not just you personally. I wouldn't have taken Jaunus's word for it either without the source. Simply because people have bias, give half truths or just give pure speculation.
In this case none of you gave the source, and conveniently missed out that it was clearly stated her BM was only "Elementary" Level.
A Padawan using Elementary level BM just further proves my original point to you that Jedi Master Luke Skywalker must have done the vast majority of the work in defeating DE Palpatine. The most powerful incarnation of Palpatine to date no less.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
If they seriously needed proof or sources for Yoda being able to beat Maul, then they probably shouldn't be debating with me in the first place.They might be late for Preschool, or Special Ed classes, take your pick.
Or it could be Pro's testing your knowledge and debating ability by seeing if you can even prove a case as simple as that.
Originally posted by BattlemasterFirst of all Luke wasn't overwhelmed in combat by Desann.
Well, JA Luke, the Force God that he is, could have at least used TK to hurl a stone at Desann and knock him out, or at least use his mighty unstoppable TK to restrain him.In other words, utilise Jedi-tranquility while fighting and use his unstoppable Force powers to stun him - instead of being overwhelmed in combat and being buried under debris.
Somehow in his incalculable power, Luke couldn't manage to put down the temper tantrum of a novice who likely didn't have a year of training under his belt.
Jedi Outcast takes place in 12 ABY, same years as the Darksaber and Daala's attack on the Academy. That was only one year after Luke established the academy and Palpatine's final death.
How did Desann go from a nobody on a backward planet, to a trained Jedi apprentice-turned-Dark Jedi, find and train an apprentice of his own, and ally and ingratiate himself with the Empire Reborn movement to the point of command? Either Desann had the potential and skill-advancement of a demigod, or he actually sucked that much.
it's true. he wasn't even there at the beginning of the academy, and he wasn't there until AFTER Daala's attacks (the JA book series) He then:
A. Went to the Academy.
B. Left the Academy.
C. Joined Empire Reborn.
D. Trained Tavion/Became the leader of Empire Reborn
Less than a year, it's true, and ridiculous.
Originally posted by truejedi
it's true. he wasn't even there at the beginning of the academy, and he wasn't there until AFTER Daala's attacks (the JA book series) He then:A. Went to the Academy.
B. Left the Academy.
C. Joined Empire Reborn.
D. Trained Tavion/Became the leader of Empire RebornLess than a year, it's true, and ridiculous.
Roughly Desann had around one year. Considering that Sith don't just learn but drill Force and combat exercises, it is more than enough time.
In real life, if we don't count physical capabilities like strength and stamina, then a talented person (and Force users are talented by default) can learn any form of combat within 3 months of intensive training. And I am not talking about proper martial art with loads of philosophy and countless useless techniques but downgraded version applied in real life.
As for mastering the Force I can give some examples proving that Desann is not out of ordinary example. Lets just look at other Luke's students from Jedi Academy trilogy.
Corran Horn. At one of Academy exercises he managed to produce illusion powerful enough that even Luke couldn't see through it straight away. He left his training shortly after defeat of Exar Kun.
Yet, at Vlarnya he was terrorizing gangs by masterfully using Force illusions on them. At the same place he legitimately defeated 2-3 Jensarai. Also, Force users, with lightsabers and cortosis armor, who spent far more time in studying Force, than him.
At the same planet he performed possibly his biggest feat in life. Multiple detonators exploded near him. He managed to shield himself and absorb all of that hit and channel into powerful Force illusion for all Vlarnya to see. In the same novel he fought Jensarai master, he lost duel but was still able to use Force illusion on her. Shortly after duel he implanted thoughts into pirate Tavira and he was at that moment on a planet, while she - in a ship in orbit. Quite impressive for a Jedi with few months training, isn't it?
Kyp Durron is another example. He joined training much later but quickly surpassed in the Force all others.
Dorsk 82. One year of training. In his sacrifice he pushed away around 12 star destroyers and literally burned out as the result. Of course it was combined effort as other Jedi were channeling Force into him but still a lot of credit goes to him for being able to utilize that power to such enormous extend.
The difference in Luke's students is that he trained adult people, who had enough experience in life already. His training was simplified to daily exercises and meditations. It's not like in old republic, where Jedi training was an alternative to primary school for children and they were allowed to advance only, when master felt they were ready.
And there are more examples of those who mastered Force and combat in very short time, especially, when it comes to darksiders.