Originally posted by Battlemaster
So if I said Yoda could kill Maul, I would be wrong there?
It seems that the entire point, like the evidence, eludes you. I'll try again: I'm not interested (at the moment) in whether or not your claim is definitively right or wrong. I'm interested in whether or not it has any actual basis. Your reluctance to provide proof for your very tall, specific claims suggests that you're either lazy or insecure about the argument's validity.
In a nutshell, if you were to say "lul yoda cud kick maul's ass" you would still need to prove it.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Would I need actual evidence provided on a post to show that RotS Mace Windu could kill Zett Jukassa?
Certainly, especially if asked.
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
It seems that the entire point, like the evidence, eludes you. I'll try again: I'm not interested (at the moment) in whether or not your claim is definitively right or wrong. I'm interested in whether or not it has any actual basis. Your reluctance to provide proof for your very tall, specific claims suggests that you're either lazy or insecure about the argument's validity.In a nutshell, if you were to say "lul yoda cud kick maul's ass" you would still need to prove it.
Certainly, especially if asked.
Most of my earlier post that spawned this argument, stemmed on the fact that DE Luke is far inferior to his Peak-Evolved version in LotF.
I put forth the observation that many of the top-tier characters in LotF could at least narrowly defeat DE Luke in combat.
That's actually not a bad thing to point out.
Given that you've challenged my earlier post, which has relatively easy rational to go by, I'm not sure what you would consider proof of Peak Katarn or Peak Caedus defeating an inferior Luke.
Perhaps because Katarn defeated Desann when Luke couldn't? And this Luke was post DE, who defeated Sidious.
I have a hard time believing that Jedi Outcast Katarn or even Jedi Academy Katarn could defeat DE Luke firmly - but flash forward a few decades and much skill and power later, and you have a Katarn that by all accounts should be able to manage it.
Also, I can prove right here at least by the fact that it's a few decades and books earlier, that DE Luke is not as powerful as LotF Luke, not anywhere close yet.
I'm just not sure what you would consider blatantly-obvious enough to give you the "proof" you require.
Battlemaster
Most of my earlier post that spawned this argument, stemmed on the fact that DE Luke is far inferior to his Peak-Evolved version in LotF.
I don't dispute DE!Luke's inferiority to LOTF!Luke. The decades in between both series would have enabled Luke to hone his skills even further, widening the gap between them.
Battlemaster
Given that you've challenged my earlier post, which has relatively easy rational to go by, I'm not sure what you would consider proof of Peak Katarn or Peak Caedus defeating an inferior Luke.Perhaps because Katarn defeated Desann when Luke couldn't? And this Luke was post DE, who defeated Sidious.
I have a hard time believing that Jedi Outcast Katarn or even Jedi Academy Katarn could defeat DE Luke firmly - but flash forward a few decades and much skill and power later, and you have a Katarn that by all accounts should be able to manage it.
By all accounts?
Using your logic, Luke's inability to overcome Desann juxtaposed with Desann's defeat at Kyle's hands should constitute proof that Kyle was more powerful than Luke even then. That seems unlikely given the fact that Luke's strength in the Force vastly outstrips Kyle's and Luke has been an active Jedi much longer, suggesting his skills outstrip Kyle's own. What accounts for the different outcomes in their duels against Desann? Kyle's duel with Desann takes place during gameplay; the actual event might have looked entirely different: Desann might have had the upper hand entirely and lost due to error at a critical moment. Luke may have been restraining himself severely against Desann, a former student, who cunningly managed to exploit the situation to his benefit. That certainly lines up with what we know of post-DE!Luke, who (per The Unifying Force) has limited his Force use since his brief tenure as the reborn Emperor's apprentice. Kyle, on the other hand, is known to be much more roguish and ruthless than Luke. Given that the struggle with Desann became personal after he threatened Jan, it's likely that Kyle attacked Desann with all he had whereas Luke wouldn't.
As far as LOTF!Kyle and DE!Luke are concerned, I'm not convinced that Kyle would emerge victorious. The user Advent once made a convincing argument that Kyle was extremely talented among Luke's Jedi, but the fact is that while LOTF!Kyle may enjoy an advantage in skill against DE!Luke, his strength in the Force has never been established to be remotely comparable.
Not to mention the startling lack of evidence [in this thread] for Nihilus, Bane, or Caedus's victory over Sidious.
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
I don't dispute DE!Luke's inferiority to LOTF!Luke. The decades in between both series would have enabled Luke to hone his skills even further, widening the gap between them.
Yeah, that much is obvious.
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
By all accounts?
Using your logic, Luke's inability to overcome Desann juxtaposed with Desann's defeat at Kyle's hands should constitute proof that Kyle was more powerful than Luke even then. That seems unlikely given the fact that Luke's strength in the Force vastly outstrips Kyle's and Luke has been an active Jedi much longer, suggesting his skills outstrip Kyle's own. What accounts for the different outcomes in their duels against Desann? Kyle's duel with Desann takes place during gameplay; the actual event might have looked entirely different: Desann might have had the upper hand entirely and lost due to error at a critical moment. Luke may have been restraining himself severely against Desann, a former student, who cunningly managed to exploit the situation to his benefit. That certainly lines up with what we know of post-DE!Luke, who (per The Unifying Force) has limited his Force use since his brief tenure as the reborn Emperor's apprentice. Kyle, on the other hand, is known to be much more roguish and ruthless than Luke. Given that the struggle with Desann became personal after he threatened Jan, it's likely that Kyle attacked Desann with all he had whereas Luke wouldn't.
As far as LOTF!Kyle and DE!Luke are concerned, I'm not convinced that Kyle would emerge victorious. The user Advent once made a convincing argument that Kyle was extremely talented among Luke's Jedi, but the fact is that while LOTF!Kyle may enjoy an advantage in skill against DE!Luke, his strength in the Force has never been established to be remotely comparable.
Here's the problem: when Desann and Luke fought, Desann basically planned to hatch a scheme that would end up hurting and killing countless lives.
And Luke, either because he couldn't defeat Desann or didn't want to risk the Dark side by killing him, let him escape.
The idea of Luke letting a terrorist, bent of the deaths of millions and billions, escape in favor of some principles, doesn't strike me as rational likelihood.
Luke knew if Desann got away, it would likely cost the lives of thousands of innocent people, so letting Desann get away would be trading one life, for a billion.
At the end of their fight, Desann gets away, and Luke radios Kyle telling him to find him and stop him and that the galaxy was at stake, etc, etc.
It would be a waste of time and potentially a waste of a great many innocent lives, for Luke to give up and just let Kyle do it.
It seems unlikely.
Basically, Luke couldn't handle him, and he needed Kyle. That's it. Unless you have a better explanation?
Also, Luke's greatest Force feat as of Dark Empire was using TK to bring down a crippled AT-AT. Big deal.
I'm sure a Peak Katarn could likely handle that. Making DE Luke's edge in the Force against a Peak Katarn, highly ambiguous.
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Not to mention the startling lack of evidence [in this thread] for Nihilus, Bane, or Caedus's victory over Sidious.
I read a thread concerning N versus Sidious a while back. It took a long while to get through, but they seemed to prove pretty well that N would be victorious.
DE Luke is far inferior to his Peak-Evolved version in LotFFar inferior? What makes you think so? At that point he is Jedi for over 10 years. In that time he demonstrated a lot of feats he never repeated later and a lot of which were never done by any other Jedi.
He had plenty of experience and trials to become a Jedi in his prime.
Confronting Emperor was the conclusion point, where he succumbed to darkside but with Lea's help ultimately cast it off and gained the confidence of master.
Obviously by LotF he got more skilled but not by far and his power was around the same as it is always up and down depending on how often he practices.
Originally posted by Arhael
Far inferior? What makes you think so? At that point he is Jedi for over 10 years. In that time he demonstrated a lot of feats he never repeated later and a lot of which were never done by any other Jedi.
Fair enough there weren't other Jedi to practice with lightsaber but he most likely practiced with droids.
He engaged twice Lumya and after constructing shoto defeated her. And she wasn't an easy foe for him in LotF.
He encountered Cronal. He fought your favorite Kar Vastor controlled by Cronal and managed to freed him. After he ultimately defeated Cronal on mental level.
Fought Datomiry Nightsisters.
Confronted Joorus C'abaot, who was portrayed as powerful as RotJ Sidious. Moreover, fought his own clone controlled by C'abaut, while having mess in his mind.He had plenty of experience and trials to become a Jedi in his prime.
Confronting Emperor was the conclusion point, where he succumbed to darkside but with Lea's help ultimately cast it off and gained the confidence of master.
Obviously by LotF he got more skilled but not by far and his power was around the same as it is always up and down depending on how often he practices.
Woaw Arhael, don't steal Herbert Spencer's thunder. no2
At the end of their fight, Desann gets away, and Luke radios Kyle telling him to find him and stop him and that the galaxy was at stake, etc, etc.Here you are wrong. Yes, Desann managed to run away. Which doesn't prove that Luke couldn't handle him, if Desann staid, it would be his peril.It would be a waste of time and potentially a waste of a great many innocent lives, for Luke to give up and just let Kyle do it.
It seems unlikely.
Basically, Luke couldn't handle him, and he needed Kyle. That's it. Unless you have a better explanation?
I'm sure a Peak Katarn could likely handle that. Making DE Luke's edge in the Force against a Peak Katarn, highly ambiguous.Let me elaborate on my previous statement about Caedus and Kyle.
Kyle Katarn on the other hand is Jedi. Jedi don't use Force as offensively as Sith and rely mostly on lightsaber. In fight with Caedus he relied only on lightsaber and didn't even try to use Force offensively. In fight with DE Luke it would most likely be pure lightsaber fight. I think you would agree that Palpatine is stronger with lightsaber, than any incarnation of Kyle, so for Luke it would be much easier to defeat Kyle, than Palpatine. The only reason I said "very doubtfully" instead of "no chance" is because Kyle was described as unarmed combat expert in NJO, so he could, also, give some sort of kicks that would give hard time to Luke.
Battlemaster
Basically, Luke couldn't handle him, and he needed Kyle. That's it.
Which would require Kyle being a stronger combatant than Luke, whose connection to the Force, experience, and acquired skill in Jedi combat are all greater than Kyle's own abilities.
Battlemaster
Unless you have a better explanation?
I offered one, which you dismissed because you considered it tantamount to Luke stepping aside and letting Desann walk out the door cackling maniacally. The fact of the matter is that after his experiences with the reborn Emperor on Byss, Luke revised his philosophy on Force use that resulted in him constantly exercising restraint. This theme is addressed in the Black Fleet Crisis novels, the Hand of Thrawn Duology, and The Unifying Force. In fact, it manifested again in Luke's reluctance to face Caedus after their duel in Inferno, so terrified was he of unleashing his full might on a hated foe and succumbing to the dark side as a result.
Your theory requires Kyle's abilities to rival or surpass Luke's, which flies in the face of everything we know about both characters. Mine maintains continuity on two levels: the first in which Luke Skywalker's powers eclipse Kyle Katarn's and second in which Kyle is the more roguish, aggressive, impulsive fighter whereas Luke is much more alert, cautious, and hesitant.
Battlemaster
Also, Luke's greatest Force feat as of Dark Empire was using TK to bring down a crippled AT-AT. Big deal.
And crushing a contingent of battle droids shortly before that. Still, that's one more AT-AT than Kyle has dropped.
Battlemaster
I'm sure a Peak Katarn could likely handle that. Making DE Luke's edge in the Force against a Peak Katarn, highly ambiguous.
Your certainty makes Luke's superior feats ambiguous? Unless your driver's license says Leland Chee or George Lucas, you should probably expect me not to care. DE!Luke is more powerful than Kyle and unrestrained, an advantage over JA!Luke by far.
Battlemaster
I read a thread concerning N versus Sidious a while back. It took a long while to get through, but they seemed to prove pretty well that N would be victorious.
Cool.
I read an extremely well-written and exhaustively cited essay by this forum's most recognized and skilled debater in which he proves that Palpatine is the strongest Sith Lord in the mythos.
Originally posted by ZampanóEurgh. This is the worst kind of internet posturing. People didn't stop responding because they were tacitly conceding, they stopped responding because you're boring. And as far as I can tell, you yourself failed to respond ("dropped the argument"😉 to Arhael's post observing the utter inanity of trying to draw a direct correlation between titles and combat ability.
By even the most crass standards of e-peen brinksmanship, you've got no ground to stand on.
Spoiler:
That argument boiled down to a shouting match while ignoring the distinction between necessary and sufficient conditions which had provoked the confusion in the first place. It's hardly a crowning achievement of discourse, let alone a successful first step in a campaign to invade a message board.Eurgh. Not only have you constructed a strawman for Spencer to defend, you are holding it to a higher standard of evidence than you are willing to meet.
Protip: None of us (with the possible exception of DP) have the energy or inclination to indulge in a protracted internet-war. We've thrashed out positions and lines of argumentation on most topics and most disputes consist of shorthand references to memories of such arguments. What I'm saying is that the orthodoxy has ossified into a fairly coherent body politik.
If you want to win the internet, it'll take a fair bit of effort to get anyone to confront you in a line-by-line dispute, let alone sway the opinion of the masses. Might I suggest that you try a little more
humilitytact and at the very least substantiate your claims? [/B]
QFT.
This might actually be the post that defines this forum at this current date.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
I know, now you get to revel in your Luke Fanboyism, since a few of the other kids have come over to tell me they don't like how I'm playing the game. 🙄Luke would still get his ass handed to him by either Peak Caedus or Katarn.
Either DE Luke is very powerful, or DE Sidious is weak - pick one. 🐰
What? Lol!
Don't you worry about my "Luke fanboyism."
I've given many reasons why I think DE Luke is powerful which Im getting fed up of repeating but fine one more time:
1. Force powers - Bringing down an AT-AT Walker with the Force. Taking out a load of beasts and droids with a wave of his hand.
Force pushing DE Sidious to the wall on Byss(A Planet which according to the graphic novel was "Entirely Enveloped in the Power of the Dark Side" ).
2. Sabers- Even when he got defeated by Palps, he parried a few strikes from DE Sidious(read the words, don't just look at the pictures) and even matched him in a Saber Lock, before he went down..
And this was a stronger version of Sidious in his clone body, plus the fight being on Byss (a dark side Nexus see above).
For more proof of Palpatine's natural advantage on Byss he even says "Did you really think you could defeat me here on MY THRONE WORLD?"
3. When he did defeat Palpatine with Leia's help, she was a Padawan using only "Elementary" level Battle meditation (according to Empire's end), so the Majority of the work must have been done by DE Luke.
Now does everyone on these boards agree with me? Probably not. But as you can see I've provided an argument backing it up with evidence found in the source material.
So you want tell me DE Luke is weak? Fine by me. As long as you counter my arguments with evidence like I have done. In other words Prove it.
Edit As for DE Palpatine being weak. Well considering he has all the memories and knowledge of OT Palpatine but is in a much younger clone body, Im afraid you would have to give us reasons for us to believe he's any weaker than OT/PT Sidious. Again prove it!!
Originally posted by Battlemaster
If I say that Yoda could kill Maul, do I have to provide evidence?We've never seen Yoda kill Maul before, after all.
If people don't agree or ask for evidence, then yes.
Although it would be a pretty simple task to prove, especially if you were as knowledgeable as you seem to imply.
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Which would require Kyle being a stronger combatant than Luke, whose connection to the Force, experience, and acquired skill in Jedi combat are all greater than Kyle's own abilities.
I offered one, which you dismissed because you considered it tantamount to Luke stepping aside and letting Desann walk out the door cackling maniacally. The fact of the matter is that after his experiences with the reborn Emperor on Byss, Luke revised his philosophy on Force use that resulted in him constantly exercising restraint. This theme is addressed in the Black Fleet Crisis novels, the Hand of Thrawn Duology, and The Unifying Force. In fact, it manifested again in Luke's reluctance to face Caedus after their duel in Inferno, so terrified was he of unleashing his full might on a hated foe and succumbing to the dark side as a result.
Well, JA Luke, the Force God that he is, could have at least used TK to hurl a stone at Desann and knock him out, or at least use his mighty unstoppable TK to restrain him.
In other words, utilise Jedi-tranquility while fighting and use his unstoppable Force powers to stun him - instead of being overwhelmed in combat and being buried under debris.
Somehow in his incalculable power, Luke couldn't manage to put down the temper tantrum of a novice who likely didn't have a year of training under his belt.
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Your theory requires Kyle's abilities to rival or surpass Luke's, which flies in the face of everything we know about both characters. Mine maintains continuity on two levels: the first in which Luke Skywalker's powers eclipse Kyle Katarn's and second in which Kyle is the more roguish, aggressive, impulsive fighter whereas Luke is much more alert, cautious, and hesitant.
I'm sure LotF Luke's power and abilities surely eclipse Peak Katarn's - however, an inferior version of Luke some two decades earlier still eclipse Katarn in killing-ability?
I'm guessing RotJ Luke is a Force God compared to Peak Katarn, too?
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
And crushing a contingent of battle droids shortly before that. Still, that's one more AT-AT than Kyle has dropped.
I'm sure if Kyle was an AT-AT he'd be in all sorts of trouble. 🙄
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Your certainty makes Luke's superior feats ambiguous? Unless your driver's license says Leland Chee or George Lucas, you should probably expect me not to care. DE!Luke is more powerful than Kyle and unrestrained, an advantage over JA!Luke by far.
Not really, considering a weaker version than that of LotF Kyle, was able to defeat an enemy JA Luke couldn't handle.
Originally posted by Herbert Spencer
Cool.
I read an extremely well-written and exhaustively cited essay by this forum's most recognized and skilled debater in which he proves that Palpatine is the strongest Sith Lord in the mythos.
I've seen people here who are able to take something incorrect and do a good job of debating about it.
Debating is fine, but being right is even better.
I'd say in terms of being factually correct, Nepthys and Silent Moose hold that position.
I can't even have an argument against either of them because they understand the material and know what they're talking about, so having to form a debate for the obvious is much less needed on their part.
Basically, I'm saying they're great debators. I've seen Gideon argue till he was blue in the face about stuff he was wrong about; debating about it with reams of erroneous data makes no difference.
I'd trust Nepthys or Stealth Moose over any other debator, any day.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What? Lol!
Don't you worry about my "Luke fanboyism!!1!!"Edit [b]As for DE Palpatine being weak. Well considering he has all the memories and knowledge of OT Palpatine but is in a much younger clone body, Im afraid you would have to give us reasons for us to believe he's any weaker than OT/PT Sidious. Again prove it!!
[/B]
Because he had knowledge of every Sith technique, and still got whacked by Luke and/or his friends over and over again.
He had the ability to tear up a surface on a planet and still bumbled enough to the point where he couldn't handle the situation.
Caedus (though I don't like the character) didn't have Force Storm, nor the host of other abilities Sidious possessed - and he still accomplished more with his war and gave a much, much more powerful version of Luke hell.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
3. When he did defeat Palpatine with Leia's help, she was a Padawan using only "Elementary" level Battle meditation (according to Empire's end), so the Majority of the work must have been done by DE Luke.
Oh, you caved to the Battle Meditation argument, eh?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If people don't agree or ask for evidence, then yes.Although it would be a pretty simple task to prove, especially if you were as knowledgeable as you seem to imply.
If they seriously needed proof or sources for Yoda being able to beat Maul, then they probably shouldn't be debating with me in the first place.
They might be late for Preschool, or Special Ed classes, take your pick.