Borbarad
Secondly: Sticking to the usual modus operandi of a certain individual, you have forgotten to provide the context of the quote.1)
David Filoni starts talking about the issue with the words "I don't subscribe to the idea either, that Palpatine would in any way protect Anakin". This makes very clear, that he is voicing his personal opinion and nothing more. It is also apparent that you've added the "this early in the Clone Wars" bit up there, since Filoni is talking about the entirety of the Clone Wars including the last duel between Skywalker and Dooku - for which we have canon information contradicting Filonis personal opinion.
Which is why I said "for what it's worth" and "according to Dave Filoni", not "according to George Lucas." But, as you subscribe to the modus operandi of a certain Dooku fanboy, I understand why this opinion offends you. 😂
Borbarad
2)
The next interesting aspect you have forgotten to mention comes after the bit you've quoted: "The Emperor [...] puts Anakin into situations, where he can tap into his anger and hate and agression." This indicates that the situation in which Anakin has to fight - especially against Dooku - he is already aproaching the state of being, that is commonly refered to as "the Zone" in this forum. If that's the case, whether Dooku is holding back or not is of little consequence.However. In consideration of the fight between Anakin and Dooku in RotS, I find it highly unlikely that Anakin - without tapping into his potential using his darker emotions - should be able to overcome Count Dooku in a fight. And he's definitely not able to counter Dookus vastly superior command of the force, which is something apparent in all of their confrontations.
No one here claimed otherwise, my love. I simply provided you with Filoni's opinion, satisfying my Samaritan obligation to inform the ignorant.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also Borbarad I disagree Dooku was being out dueled by Anakin. He was giving ground, possibly being forced backwards. But it was a kick from Anakin that put Dooku to the floor.
We know from the ROTS fight that this could easily happen the other way around as well.
It was also a kick that disarmed Sidious in his duel with Mace Windu. Anakin in RotS likewise utilized a rather uncommon manouver to defeat Dooku. That is part of the dueling, even though it may not be part of the swordfighting finesse of a Jedi / Sith.
Also Borbarad I think when Anakin is in his full "Zone" state (like when he killed Dooku) he is also tremendously powerful in the Force.
To be honest: I don't know. There is nothing indicating, that Anakin could overcome powerful force use while in that state. In fact we have Lucas himself indirectly stating, that Anakin wouldn't have been able to overcome Sidious at the time of RotS, which probably includes "Zonakin". It might be, that Anakin could shrug off stuff like Force lightning from Sidious, but I wouldn't base an argument on that.
The evidence being him dominating the Son and the Daughter with Force TK in the Mortis trilogy.So I do think in his full "Zone" state he could quite possibly defeat any Jedi/Sith.
This is another problematic issue. During the action you're mentioning in the Mortis trilogy, Anakin is apparently using the Force energy of the planet itself (which Obi-Wan tells him to do just moments before). But there, he is not in the zone (Obi-Wan would have spotted dark emotions), nor was he able to replicate that feat when he had to deal with the son later in the story arc.
In that regard, Anakin might fail - despite his vast potential - because he lacks the refinement or control to put it into action, even if he goes into the "zone". A capable force user might still kill him in that state, if force attacks can be utilized. In lightsaber combat, Anakin simple decides to win and...does it. At least according to the RotS novelization.
@MewlingQuim
Which is why I said "for what it's worth" and "according to Dave Filoni", not "according to George Lucas." But, as you subscribe to the modus operandi of a certain Dooku fanboy, I understand why this opinion offends you.
I wonder where you got the idea from that I was "offended" by the opinion. Because I pointed out the flaws in your way of introducing it? I'm just teaching.
No one here claimed otherwise, my love. I simply provided you with Filoni's opinion, satisfying my Samaritan obligation to inform the ignorant.
"Ignorance" is usually defined by overlooking something important. I wonder how important Dave Filoni's - canon defying - opinion might be in the great scheme of things.
The inability of a certain individual to deliver information without omitting the context or adding bits in order to forge evidence...That seems to be a far more interesting topic. 🙂
Borbarad
wonder where you got the idea from that I was "offended" by the opinion. Because I pointed out the flaws in your way of introducing it? I'm just teaching.
No, because you manufactured flaws that weren't there to begin with.
Borbarad
"Ignorance" is usually defined by overlooking something important. I wonder how important Dave Filoni's - canon defying - opinion might be in the great scheme of things.
More important than yours, if that's what you're asking.
Borbarad
The inability of a certain individual to deliver information without omitting the context or adding bits in order to forge evidence...That seems to be a far more interesting topic.
I have no idea why you felt the need to manufacture a scandal. Perhaps to distract from the idea that the supervising director of the series, who works closely with George Lucas, seems to suggest that Dooku's performance against Anakin wasn't choreographed by Palpatine?
Filoni's words were introduced not as evidence but merely as a differing opinion. But I remember you're not fond of those when it comes to Dooku, among others.
Originally posted by Borbarad
It was also a kick that disarmed Sidious in his duel with Mace Windu. Anakin in RotS likewise utilized a rather uncommon manouver to defeat Dooku. That is part of the dueling, even though it may not be part of the swordfighting finesse of a Jedi / Sith.
I would personally call that overpowering, not out dueling.
Like I pointed out Dooku also gave Angry Anakin a deadly kick in ROTS, so that's something that could potentially work either way with those two.
Originally posted by Borbarad
To be honest: I don't know. There is nothing indicating, that Anakin could overcome powerful force use while in that state. In fact we have Lucas himself indirectly stating, that Anakin wouldn't have been able to overcome Sidious at the time of RotS, which probably includes "Zonakin".
Not sure about this simply because like you said Lucas said it "indirectly". He didn't clearly state that. And Lucas has made many comments which would "indirectly" suggest otherwise like:
"From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emporer.." Suggesting before then(getting beaten up by Obi-Wan) he perhaps was..
He's also stated OT Vader was 80% of Sidious in power. And has compared Vader's power to that of Dooku or Maul.
So I would find it difficult to accept that "Zone" Anakin, who made a joke of Dooku, would not be capable of contending with Sidious as of ROTS, based on one vague statament of Lucas.
I think it better to take into account all the evidences available including the events of the Mortis trilogy.
Originally posted by Borbarad
This is another problematic issue. During the action you're mentioning in the Mortis trilogy, Anakin is apparently using the Force energy of the planet itself (which Obi-Wan tells him to do just moments before). But there, he is not in the zone (Obi-Wan would have spotted dark emotions), nor was he able to replicate that feat when he had to deal with the son later in the story arc.
Point is it shows the power Anakin is capable of accessing. The Father says "Only the Chosen One" could have done that.
That means Yoda couldn't and nor could Sidious, if we're to believe the Father.
He tends to get angry when people threaten Ashoka alone, never mind Obi-Wan and Ashoka.
Obi-Wan would likely realize he is angry at his friends being threatened, just like Obi-Wan himself gave into his rage when he saw his own Master die.
It's unlikely something Obi-Wan is going to do much about apart from telling Anakin to control his anger more.
As for not replicating the feat, I don't recall Anakin even attempting to use TK on the Son again.
Originally posted by Borbarad
In that regard, Anakin might fail - despite his vast potential - because he lacks the refinement or control to put it into action, even if he goes into the "zone". A capable force user might still kill him in that state, if force attacks can be utilized. In lightsaber combat, Anakin simple decides to win and...does it. At least according to the RotS novelization.
If we go by the novel's description of his "Zone" state he does have control and focus when he's in that state.
In ROTS it was Palpatine and Kenobi.In the Mortis trilogy, it was Obi-Wan and Ashoka.
In the episode we're talking about it was just Palpatine. So it was definitely Angry Uber Anakin. Which we can tell from his line "Should have quit while you were still alive Dooku."
Therefore Mortis trilogy apart from making him more attuned to the Force shouldn't be accounted for.
Originally posted by Arhael
Duels with Dooku and achievement at Mortis can't really be compared. While with Dooku as you call it "in the zone" he uses anger and it is shown that it is not something entirely unique, can be achieved more than ones and only gives edge in the battle. While what happened in Mortis did not involve anger and is more like one of those oneness with the Force moments, which can be experienced ones in a life time, if ever and gives much greater power, than "in the zone" or other anger variations.Therefore Mortis trilogy apart from making him more attuned to the Force shouldn't be accounted for.
"Senior Member"?
Rofl. 😛