Satele and Marek vs The Sith Emperor

Started by S_W_LeGenD12 pages
S_W_LeGenD Senior Member

Originally posted by Arhael
Or just make him enraged and unleash a Force blast. You know it now becomes assumption vs assumption.

My assumption has canonical relevance. Yours does not. Vitiate has demonstrated the capability to crush the will of any individual he had wanted to. This works in his favor and it is safe to side with him.

Originally posted by Arhael
But I don't see how it will surprise him as Palpatine is adept at mental powers as well.

When did Sidious attempted to crush the will of Marek?

Originally posted by Arhael
Does it make her defenseless against mind domination? Luke admits many times that he can die in next confrontation. Does it prove he will die?

Yes, she will be defenseless (she herself acknowledged this). Watch the video below.

Originally posted by Arhael
Which he successively absorbed like Yoda.

Here are the details:

Without hesitation, he stepped between Kota and the Emperor, taking the full brunt of the Sith lightning into his own body.

The pain was incredible, searing every nerve back to its individual cells, skewering each of them on white-hot needles. He had never before felt anything like this. He wanted to recoil from the source, to curl into a ball and let unconsciousness take the pain away, but somehow he stayed standing, seeing the world through a crackling blue light, and even took a step toward the Emperor.

Marek could not escape from this attack.

Originally posted by Arhael
No it's not. I see your points and respect that. But don't give me sh*t like this. People don't have realizations out of nothing.

I repeat: Your realization is baseless. The sooner you understand this, the better.

Originally posted by Arhael
Don't you need to establish it, if your opinion is that he mind dominated them during combat? Force lightning takes a lot of concentration leaving no space for mind domination, especially, when it is used in wide range, this is my establishment.

Vitiate have demonstrated the capability to crush the will of his adversaries without even attacking them. Your opinion does not matters.

Originally posted by Arhael
Extremely illogical perception of my statement. What I meant by that is that it is not just newby brush with darkside. He trained from childhood to utilize it and to master it as his prime weapon. In no way it is his weakness, which would make him easier to mind dominate. Marek studying darkside all his life and utilizing it to full extend is not the same as Revan tainted by darkside but still struggling to remain Jedi.

1. Even if Marek had firm control over his emotions, he is still vulnerable in this fight. The case of Satele helps my argument.

2. But Revan was not easy to break even during this struggling phase. Only a master of mind domination succeeded in breaking him.

Originally posted by Arhael
😆

Nothing to laugh here.

Originally posted by Arhael
Flawed? You better stop saying nonsense like that. Vitiate was stupid to toy with his victim and put him in vulnerable position as result. End of story.

Your point would have been valid if Vitiate would have seen Meetra approaching him and still decided to toy with Revan. Since this was not the case, your assumption is null and void.

Originally posted by Arhael
Power alone was never enough for him to get away. Intelligence and wise decisions are always important.

Intelligence would have been important if he was facing a more powerful adversary. Most of the time, he was the strongest in his fights. Once again, your assumption is null and void.

Originally posted by Arhael
You need to realize that, when Sidious is in old body, there is no difference. Well, in game Vitiate uses illusions, perhaps this is the only difference.

Original body is original body. Their is no better substitute for it.

Originally posted by Arhael
It is not Generalization

It is.

Originally posted by Arhael
No more baseless, than you blaming authors and saying that Luke gets away with power alone and that my point is baseless.

My point is valid. Why would one need great intelligence to beat a weaker foe?

Originally posted by Arhael
Fighting much more powerful opponent on his own field in the middle of darkside nexus without help of three masters like last time hardly qualifies as his own terms. His terms would be fighting inside a Jedi academy.

Once again! Available evidence points to the weakened state of the Vitiate during this confrontation. Scourge gave all the intel to the Jedi Knight to make this confrontation possible under favorable circumstances. The Jedi Knight did fight Vitiate on his own terms in the second encounter.

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke is not exception to this rule. Being a Luke hater, you fail to realize this. By the way, topic is not about Luke and I am not fun of Satele Shan and actually don't like Marek.

My point regarding Luke is valid. Can you highlight any PLAN that Luke would make to defeat his opponent before combat?

And I am not a hater of Luke. It is just that I feel that his story should end now. He is arguably the most powerful Jedi in the whole mythos. With this kind of status, the authors can hardly make his struggles interesting or convincing.

Originally posted by Arhael
Implying that Sidious' lightning was much weaker because in movie it was portrayed only with three bolts is laughable.

This is not my point. Greater span of Lightning requires much more effort to contain. I can prove my point with canonical evidence.

Originally posted by Arhael
He did. Look at cutscene 5.40-6:00:
YouTube video

Use the novel.

Originally posted by Arhael
Fixed.

If this makes you happy.

Originally posted by Arhael
Nephthys revealed that on lightside Jedi Knight wastes time to save his girlfriend giving Vitiate time to regain his powers (if he was truly weaken at all). So my conclusions are still relevant. 😉

No.

Saving a friend makes no difference. Vitiate remains in weakened state, which is a plot device.

Here is all the evidence you need:

YouTube video

This video is based on Lightside path.

Nephthys The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

No.

Saving a friend makes no difference. Vitiate remains in weakened state, which is a plot device.

Here is all the evidence you need:

YouTube video

This video is based on Lightside path.

Clearly you missed the part at 16.20, and I quote:

Scourge: 'You gave the Emperor time to gather his strength. We are fortunate to be alive.'

Battlemaster Regular Member

Astute point..

Arhael Devoid of reality

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
[B]My assumption has canonical relevance. Yours does not. Vitiate has demonstrated the capability to crush the will of any individual he had wanted to. This works in his favor and it is safe to side with him.
Mine does not? He didn't mind dominate strike team in combat. He didn't mind dominate JK in combat. he didn't mind dominate Revan in combat. That's canon, another matter is that you discard it.

When did Sidious attempted to crush the will of Marek?
You need to establish this as mind domination is not visible in visuals. 😄

Yes, she will be defenseless (she herself acknowledged this). Watch the video below.
She is concerned that she can fall under his influence. There is clear possibility of that and that is why she is reluctant. But you can't use it as guaranteed evidence that she will be defenseless.

Here are the details:
...

Marek could not escape from this attack.

Use the novel.

Enlighten me as I didn't read the novel. Giving quote out of context is not helpful. So, if Marek did not overpower Palpatine, how did he end up laying on the floor?

"Overcoming the pain just enough to absorb and gather the energy, Galen advanced on Palpatine as the two remained locked in the chain of lightning. At the same time, he noticed that a squadron of stormtroopers had entered the chamber, with Darth Vader limping behind them, in pursuit of the fleeing Rebel leaders. With no other option left, Galen grabbed the Emperor's shoulders and redirected the lightning into the Dark Lord, causing Sidious to share in the agonizing pain of his own power. Driven by concern for his friends, Galen embraced the Force completely and released all of the pent up energy, resulting in a massive shock wave that killed the stormtroopers and destroyed much of the dome.[3]" - this comes from wookieepedia and it seems to be based on book.

I repeat: Your realization is baseless. The sooner you understand this, the better.
I repeat: Stop giving me this bullshit. The sooner you understand this, the better.

Vitiate have demonstrated the capability to crush the will of his adversaries without even attacking them. Your opinion does not matters.
He did as well as inability to crush will of selected characters.
Scourge: "I will flay as to the temple but you mast face him alone. No one else can resist his direct influence". You say he was weakened, that doesn't seems to be the case as everyone else was reluctant to face him.

1. Even if Marek had firm control over his emotions, he is still vulnerable in this fight. The case of Satele helps my argument.
There is no case with Satele, she never fought Vitiate. And it is not about control over emotions. Idea of enraged Marek getting mind dominated is silly. Even, if he is vulnerable, his Force blasts would make Vitiate forget about mind domination, even before he tried.

Your point would have been valid if Vitiate would have seen Meetra approaching him and still decided to toy with Revan. Since this was not the case, your assumption is null and void.
You point about Abeloth would have been valid, had she known about Luke's ability to call on love for his Son, Mara and entire Order to mitigate her powers. Since this was not the case, your assumption is null and void.

Intelligence would have been important if he was facing a more powerful adversary. Most of the time, he was the strongest in his fights. Once again, your assumption is null and void.

My point is valid. Why would one need great intelligence to beat a weaker foe?

Jorus C'baot, Palpatine, Lord Nyax, Unu'Thul, Jacen, Lord Talon (After bathing in Pool of Knowledge), Abeloth. Luke was Jedi but darkside gives greater power. Moreover, there is a lot of cases, when he is not in his strongest form (potential).
How about disfavoring circumstances? Lomi Plo was invisible to him, she was Force draining him and his lightsaber, she even froze him in one place at one point.
How about Force exhausted Luke together with Ben handling 15 Sith? From this lone example I could point dozens of intelligent decisions but it is too long.
I suggest you stop clinging to this idea of Luke not needing intelligence.

It is.
It isn't. 🙂

Once again! Available evidence points to the weakened state of the Vitiate during this confrontation.
There is very long time between interrupting ritual and fight with Vitiate. How long it takes to regain power? Also, there is canonical evidence that smaller Force reserves don't make user less powerful. If you try to pull this "weakened state" thing for Vitiate, then I pull it for Marek as well. He was weakened in fight with Vader before facing Palpatine and still managed to overpower Palpatine with TK. Should we assume that, if not Vader, Palpatine wouldn't have chance at all as Marek wouldn't be weakened?

My point regarding Luke is valid. Can you highlight any PLAN that Luke would make to defeat his opponent before combat?
You point is invalid and stupid. Become Palpatine's apprentice to learn about him and defeat from within. Get read of his doubts to defeat Lomi Plo. Fake death and attack Jacen from behind, as the result Jacen was crippled right from the start of the fight. Ally with Sith to defeat Abeloth. Put blood trail on Vestara to track her. Learn mnemotherapy to reap Callista out of Abeloth. Hide in the Force and give surprise attack to 4 last Sith (there was total of 15). Kill two of them instantly and fight with last two: Vestara and her master. (Remember he is Force exhausted at that point. ) Learn during fight that they utilize Force as third hand to use Parang. Outwit them by turning away from light, so his visor does not get darkened and kill the master, while her visor is darkened. There are countless examples of his intelligence, I can go on and on. On the other hand, when did Vitiate make any plan to defeat someone in combat? He is the exact case, where intelligence during combat is not important. He just stays in one place and pawns.

This is not my point. Greater span of Lightning requires much more effort to contain. I can prove my point with canonical evidence.
Prove that Vitiate's dozen Forks are more powerful, than Sidious' three then 👆.

Zampanó The Blind Critic

crush the will of any individual
no limits fallacy

S_W_LeGenD Senior Member

Originally posted by Nephthys
Clearly you missed the part at 16.20, and I quote:

Scourge: 'You gave the Emperor time to gather his strength. We are fortunate to be alive.'


A sign of his misjudgement? Because we do not see any difference in the fight?

Originally posted by Arhael
Mine does not? He didn't mind dominate strike team in combat.

This is an assumption.

Originally posted by Arhael
He didn't mind dominate JK in combat.

But he has mind dominated JK once (in the first encounter). Element of surprise worked, correct?

Originally posted by Arhael
he didn't mind dominate Revan in combat. That's canon, another matter is that you discard it.

He has mind dominated Revan once (in the first encounter). Element of surprise worked, correct?

Originally posted by Arhael
You need to establish this as mind domination is not visible in visuals. 😄

No need to. The only thing we know is that Vitiate broke those Jedi - physically and mentally.

Originally posted by Arhael
She is concerned that she can fall under his influence. There is clear possibility of that and that is why she is reluctant. But you can't use it as guaranteed evidence that she will be defenseless.

I give priority to her concern.

You are not willing to concede due to your personal bias.

Originally posted by Arhael
Enlighten me as I didn't read the novel. Giving quote out of context is not helpful. So, if Marek did not overpower Palpatine, how did he end up laying on the floor?

"Overcoming the pain just enough to absorb and gather the energy, Galen advanced on Palpatine as the two remained locked in the chain of lightning. At the same time, he noticed that a squadron of stormtroopers had entered the chamber, with Darth Vader limping behind them, in pursuit of the fleeing Rebel leaders. With no other option left, Galen grabbed the Emperor's shoulders and redirected the lightning into the Dark Lord, causing Sidious to share in the agonizing pain of his own power. Driven by concern for his friends, Galen embraced the Force completely and released all of the pent up energy, resulting in a massive shock wave that killed the stormtroopers and destroyed much of the dome.[3]" - this comes from wookieepedia and it seems to be based on book.


Genius, I have the novel and know all of this.

Focus on how you present your arguments. You made it sound like as if it was easy for Marek to handle Sidious.

Originally posted by Arhael
I repeat: Stop giving me this bullshit. The sooner you understand this, the better.

Emotions running high here. Clearly, you have shut your brain.

Originally posted by Arhael
He did as well as inability to crush will of selected characters.
Scourge: "I will flay as to the temple but you mast face him alone. No one else can resist his direct influence". You say he was weakened, that doesn't seems to be the case as everyone else was reluctant to face him.

Both Tol Braga and Satele confirmed that the Emperor was in weakened condition. This does not changes the fact that the Emperor was still a very dangerous foe to contend with.

Originally posted by Arhael
There is no case with Satele, she never fought Vitiate. And it is not about control over emotions. Idea of enraged Marek getting mind dominated is silly. Even, if he is vulnerable, his Force blasts would make Vitiate forget about mind domination, even before he tried.

So 'being enraged' is a form of defence against mental powers? Do you realize that how silly this sounds?

How would Marek even know what is awaiting him when he decides to confront Vitiate? Even if we assume that Satele tells him to keep his guard up - this does not discounts the possibility of him getting mind dominated. Because even Satele was not sure about her chances against Vitiate.

Originally posted by Arhael
You point about Abeloth would have been valid, had she known about Luke's ability to call on love for his Son, Mara and entire Order to mitigate her powers. Since this was not the case, your assumption is null and void.

Apples and Oranges. Nice try.

Originally posted by Arhael
Jorus C'baot, Palpatine, Lord Nyax, Unu'Thul, Jacen, Lord Talon (After bathing in Pool of Knowledge), Abeloth. Luke was Jedi but darkside gives greater power. Moreover, there is a lot of cases, when he is not in his strongest form (potential).

So with exception of Abeloth, all of these were stronger then Luke?

Originally posted by Arhael
How about disfavoring circumstances? Lomi Plo was invisible to him, she was Force draining him and his lightsaber, she even froze him in one place at one point.

But Luke survived because of his greater strength, correct?

Originally posted by Arhael
How about Force exhausted Luke together with Ben handling 15 Sith? From this lone example I could point dozens of intelligent decisions but it is too long.

It shows that how poor those Sith were in combat.

Originally posted by Arhael
I suggest you stop clinging to this idea of Luke not needing intelligence.

But he does not. Their is seldom a plan in his fights. He just endures anything thrown at him and puts down his opponents.

Originally posted by Arhael
It isn't. 🙂

Think again.

Originally posted by Arhael
There is very long time between interrupting ritual and fight with Vitiate. How long it takes to regain power? Also, there is canonical evidence that smaller Force reserves don't make user less powerful. If you try to pull this "weakened state" thing for Vitiate, then I pull it for Marek as well. He was weakened in fight with Vader before facing Palpatine and still managed to overpower Palpatine with TK. Should we assume that, if not Vader, Palpatine wouldn't have chance at all as Marek wouldn't be weakened?

Vitiate was engaged in a exhausting Galaxy-level ritual. This is the difference. It was far bigger and complex objective.

Originally posted by Arhael
You point is invalid and stupid. Become Palpatine's apprentice to learn about him and defeat from within.

Palpatine was stronger so some planning was required to deal with him. But Luke's plan wasn't a good done. He went against the teachings of Master Yoda and succumbed to the dark side in the process. His sister saved him.

Originally posted by Arhael
Get read of his doubts to defeat Lomi Plo.

He overcame his emotional limitations. Nothing to do with intelligence/planning.

Originally posted by Arhael
Fake death and attack Jacen from behind, as the result Jacen was crippled right from the start of the fight.

Jacen had captured Ben. Luke did not wanted to take chances by letting Jacen know that he was coming. Yes, this is a plan but it was due to Ben.

Originally posted by Arhael
Ally with Sith to defeat Abeloth.

Planning was necessary to deal with Abeloth because of her greater power.

Originally posted by Arhael
Put blood trail on Vestara to track her. Learn mnemotherapy to reap Callista out of Abeloth.

This is irrelevant. No fighting involved.

Originally posted by Arhael
Hide in the Force and give surprise attack to 4 last Sith (there was total of 15). Kill two of them instantly and fight with last two: Vestara and her master. (Remember he is Force exhausted at that point. )

This is connected with Abeloth. Luke had to take no chances.

Also, I can give examples of even no-name Jedi using Force Masking techniques during combat situations.

Originally posted by Arhael
Learn during fight that they utilize Force as third hand to use Parang. Outwit them by turning away from light, so his visor does not get darkened and kill the master, while her visor is darkened. There are countless examples of his intelligence, I can go on and on.

I never stated that Luke was dumb or never planned. He was getting better at doing his homework with passage of time due to his experience and exposure to various plots and schemes against him. However, Luke is not among the most intelligent combatants in history. His power alone gives him massive advantage in his fights and he does not have to significantly rely on his intelligence.

Originally posted by Arhael
On the other hand, when did Vitiate make any plan to defeat someone in combat? He is the exact case, where intelligence during combat is not important. He just stays in one place and pawns.

1. Didn't Vitiate planned his rise to power in Nathema?

2. Didn't Vitiate planned to trap the Sith Lords he invited to Nathema to use them for his agencda? This feat alone is one of the greatest examples of intelligence in the works.

3. Didn't Vitiate planned to deal with the Jedi? Didn't he planned on how to deal with Revan and Malak?

4. Didn't he planned on how to deal with the rebellious Dark Council during the time of Revan after learning about its plot against him?

Anything else?

Originally posted by Arhael
Prove that Vitiate's dozen Forks are more powerful, than Sidious' three then 👆.

They were lethal enough to overcome the defences of Revan and kill him within seconds. And Revan was extremely proficient in Tutaminis.

S_W_LeGenD Senior Member

Originally posted by Zampanó
no limits fallacy

I am not saying that his mental powers cannot be resisted. But the methods employed to do so suggest that no formal method exists to do so.

And every unsuspecting individual easily falls to him.

Nephthys The Gr8est!!!!!!!!
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
A sign of his misjudgement? Because we do not see any difference in the fight?

We don't see the fight. It happens during gameplay. Scourge's statement stands.

Arhael Devoid of reality


This is an assumption.
Against your far more unlikely assumption. In fight with Revan first he used domination separately. Then lightning separately. Then Force storm. At no point he used both domination and lightning simultaneously. Also, there is no single example of someone using mind domination and lightning simultaneously.
On the video Emperor at most uses Dun Moch. That we can agree on.
Also, people don't fall unconscious from mind domination.

But he has mind dominated JK once (in the first encounter). Element of surprise worked, correct?
There was no element of surprise. They were unable to defend against Force Storm. And JK was still learning, no experience and not full potential yet.

He has mind dominated Revan once (in the first encounter). Element of surprise worked, correct?
Indeed. They didn't have a clue about him. As opposed to Jedi strike team that heard all the hype about Emperor and were prepared to fight him.

No need to. The only thing we know is that Vitiate broke those Jedi - physically and mentally.
You are, yet, to prove that he dominated them during combat, not after he rendered them unconscious.

I give priority to her concern.

You are not willing to concede due to your personal bias.

Saying that "Yes, she is defenseless" is bias. Reluctance doesn't prove anything. Luke was afraid to fight Jacen due to fear to fall to darkside. Does it prove that he would fall to darkside, if he killed Jacen?

Genius, I have the novel and know all of this.

Focus on how you present your arguments. You made it sound like as if it was easy for Marek to handle Sidious.

No, I didn't. You stated that he had no chance to defeat Vitiate alone. And keep trying to discard the fact that he overpowered Palpatine, and even when got electrocuted, was resisting it, managed to think about what is going on around and willingly sacrificed himself to save others.
Saying that character that matched the most powerful Sith of all time has no chance to defeat Vitiate is as bias as it could be.

Emotions running high here. Clearly, you have shut your brain.
No emotions. Only giving back exactly what is coming at me.

So 'being enraged' is a form of defence against mental powers? Do you realize that how silly this sounds?
Being enraged boosts power to a lot, more power = more strength to resist. And enraged person is uncontrollable and refuses to follow any commands.

How would Marek even know what is awaiting him when he decides to confront Vitiate? Even if we assume that Satele tells him to keep his guard up - this does not discounts the possibility of him getting mind dominated. Because even Satele was not sure about her chances against Vitiate.
The matter is not even about the possibility to get mind dominated. You said that he has no chance against against Vitiate alone, when his demonstration against Vader and Palpatine shows otherwise. Also, only much less powerful users can be mind dominated. In case with Marek there won't be significant power difference.

So with exception of Abeloth, all of these were stronger then Luke?
In terms of power, yes.


But Luke survived because of his greater strength, correct?
Nope.
Spoiler:
Intelligence

It shows that how poor those Sith were in combat.
No. It shows Luke's intelligence. Luke and Ben kept retreating, using positional advantage and outwitting them. They didn't allow all Sith attack at ones. Also, Vestara's master was no poor combatant, Luke couldn't simply overpower or overwhelm her, he outwitted her. And again, Luke was Force exhausted, he couldn't rely on his strength alone.

But he does not. Their is seldom a plan in his fights. He just endures anything thrown at him and puts down his opponents.
Nope. See above (c).

Think again.
👆

Vitiate was engaged in a exhausting Galaxy-level ritual. This is the difference. It was far bigger and complex objective.
Combat with lots of Force use can exhaust as much as any ritual. In any case how long it takes to replenish powers? Revitalizing trance wasn't known to Vitiate? And Nephthys proved he gathered his strength anyway.

Palpatine was stronger so some planning was required to deal with him. But Luke's plan wasn't a good done. He went against the teachings of Master Yoda and succumbed to the dark side in the process. His sister saved him.

He overcame his emotional limitations. Nothing to do with intelligence/planning.

Jacen had captured Ben. Luke did not wanted to take chances by letting Jacen know that he was coming. Yes, this is a plan but it was due to Ben.

Planning was necessary to deal with Abeloth because of her greater power.

This is irrelevant. No fighting involved.

Not good plan? Was there any better plan of how to destroy world devastators? I see you give "but" or "irrelevant" to every single example. But it doesn't matter as I proved you wrong anyway.

This is connected with Abeloth. Luke had to take no chances.
Also, I can give examples of even no-name Jedi using Force Masking techniques during combat situations.
Abeloth was unknown at the time, Luke was Force exhausted. Also, isn't it part of intelligence to find the right solution of how to handle someone, when odds are heavily against you?

I never stated that Luke was dumb or never planned. He was getting better at doing his homework with passage of time due to his experience and exposure to various plots and schemes against him. However, Luke is not among the most intelligent combatants in history. His power alone gives him massive advantage in his fights and he does not have to significantly rely on his intelligence.
So now you amend yourself. Luke always relied on his intelligence. He never relied on his power alone and tried to use least Force possible. Also, ability to outwit someone in combat is part of intelligence. I recall first LotF fight with Lumya. She gave him fatal wound. He still managed to fight and outwit her. And he won not because of greater strength but because he shot her down with blaster. Also, a lot of Luke's achievements come, when he was still learning and nowhere near his full potential, so you can't say he wasn't among most intelligent. He constructed shoto to defeat Lumya first time - that is a lot of intelligence and creativity.
He nearly died from Force blast of much more powerful Datomiri witch. He used Millennium Falcon (controlling it with Force better, than entire crew could) to kill her. - again intelligence and creativity to kill more powerful foe.

1. Didn't Vitiate planned his rise to power in Nathema?

2. Didn't Vitiate planned to trap the Sith Lords he invited to Nathema to use them for his agencda? This feat alone is one of the greatest examples of intelligence in the works.

3. Didn't Vitiate planned to deal with the Jedi? Didn't he planned on how to deal with Revan and Malak?

4. Didn't he planned on how to deal with the rebellious Dark Council during the time of Revan after learning about its plot against him?

Anything else?
[quote]
You contradict yourself:
[quote]This is irrelevant. No fighting involved.


I mirror it with Luke's examples anyway.
1. Didn't he plan to rise new Jedi Order?

2. 2. Didn't Luke plan to find Zonama Sekot to use it to end Yuuzhan Vong war without utter race annihilation? This feat alone is one of the greatest examples of intelligence in the works.

3. Didn't Luke planned to deal with the Lost Tribe of the Sith? Didn't he plan on how to deal with Abeloth?

4. Didn't he plan on how to deal with the rebellious Jacen after learning about his atrocities?

They were lethal enough to overcome the defences of Revan and kill him within seconds. And Revan was extremely proficient in Tutaminis.
Is it prove that his lightning was more lethal than Palpatine's? Is it prove that Revan was better at it, than Yoda and Marek? Also, I am, yet, to hear anything intelligent in Vititate's combat.

S_W_LeGenD Senior Member

Originally posted by Arhael
Against your far more unlikely assumption. In fight with Revan first he used domination separately. Then lightning separately. Then Force storm. At no point he used both domination and lightning simultaneously. Also, there is no single example of someone using mind domination and lightning simultaneously.
On the video Emperor at most uses Dun Moch. That we can agree on.
Also, people don't fall unconscious from mind domination.

Since this fight is not documented, it would be better if you consult Mr. Drew in this regard (you can email him and wait for his response). Until then, you and I can only speculate.

Originally posted by Arhael
There was no element of surprise. They were unable to defend against Force Storm. And JK was still learning, no experience and not full potential yet.

Vitiate's powers surprised the Jedi.

Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed. They didn't have a clue about him. As opposed to Jedi strike team that heard all the hype about Emperor and were prepared to fight him.

Malak and Revan also did some homework on Vitiate before they planned to attack him. You think they were idiots?

But Vitiate's powers surprised them too.

Originally posted by Arhael
You are, yet, to prove that he dominated them during combat, not after he rendered them unconscious.

See above.

Originally posted by Arhael
Saying that "Yes, she is defenseless" is bias. Reluctance doesn't prove anything. Luke was afraid to fight Jacen due to fear to fall to darkside. Does it prove that he would fall to darkside, if he killed Jacen?

Luke's analogy is useless in this context.

It has been established in SWTOR that no other individual could face the Emperor directly and not succumb to his influence besides JK. Satele's refusal to accompany JK in this fight affirms my point.

Originally posted by Arhael
No, I didn't. You stated that he had no chance to defeat Vitiate alone. And keep trying to discard the fact that he overpowered Palpatine, and even when got electrocuted, was resisting it, managed to think about what is going on around and willingly sacrificed himself to save others.
Saying that character that matched the most powerful Sith of all time has no chance to defeat Vitiate is as bias as it could be.

Marek's fight with Sidious leaves more questions then answers.

Originally posted by Arhael
No emotions. Only giving back exactly what is coming at me.

You refuse to acknowledge any faults in your points. This is the issue.

Originally posted by Arhael
Being enraged boosts power to a lot, more power = more strength to resist. And enraged person is uncontrollable and refuses to follow any commands.

It does not guarantee's protection against Vitiate's telepathic powers. In addition, Marek will be unlikely to get enraged early on unless he realizes that his efforts are not working. He may not even get the chance.

Originally posted by Arhael
The matter is not even about the possibility to get mind dominated. You said that he has no chance against against Vitiate alone, when his demonstration against Vader and Palpatine shows otherwise. Also, only much less powerful users can be mind dominated. In case with Marek there won't be significant power difference.

You assumption is faulty. Neither Vader and nor Sidious have demonstrated the capability to dominate the minds of powerful individuals in the same manner as Vitiate has done. This is his speciality. Any attempt to put another Sith on par with Vitiate in this aspect is futile exercise. Sidious as of DE came close but this is it.

The original assumption that mind domination works only on the weak minds is null and void with introduction of Vitiate.

To fairly judge Vitiate's capabilities, it is important to realize his talents.

Originally posted by Arhael
In terms of power, yes.

🙄

And then you expect to be taken seriously...

Originally posted by Arhael
Nope.
Spoiler:
Intelligence

He endured the assaults with his intelligence? 🙄

Originally posted by Arhael
No. It shows Luke's intelligence. Luke and Ben kept retreating, using positional advantage and outwitting them. They didn't allow all Sith attack at ones. Also, Vestara's master was no poor combatant, Luke couldn't simply overpower or overwhelm her, he outwitted her. And again, Luke was Force exhausted, he couldn't rely on his strength alone.

This places him on par with Obi-Wan at best.

Originally posted by Arhael
Nope. See above (c).

That is just one fight. My point is in the context of WHOLE.

Originally posted by Arhael
👆

Brain fart?

Originally posted by Arhael
Combat with lots of Force use can exhaust as much as any ritual.

Again and again, I have to remind you that you need to support your assumptions with evidence if you plan to convince me.

Originally posted by Arhael
In any case how long it takes to replenish powers?

Depends upon how much exhausted one is.

Originally posted by Arhael
Revitalizing trance wasn't known to Vitiate?

It was. Did he ever get weakened after a duel? No

Did a mega-ritual weakened him temporarily? Yes

Originally posted by Arhael
And Nephthys proved he gathered his strength anyway.

Nephthys highlighted Scourge's opinion. Was the fight harder with Lightside choices?

Originally posted by Arhael
Not good plan? Was there any better plan of how to destroy world devastators? I see you give "but" or "irrelevant" to every single example. But it doesn't matter as I proved you wrong anyway.

This plan had its benefits and flaws. It was not a perfect one.

Originally posted by Arhael
Abeloth was unknown at the time, Luke was Force exhausted. Also, isn't it part of intelligence to find the right solution of how to handle someone, when odds are heavily against you?

Abeloth was reckless and not very smart. Luke was a wise and highly experienced Jedi Master by this time. Can you notice the difference?

It seems as if you are weak at understanding the plots.

Originally posted by Arhael
So now you amend yourself.

No. It is my position from the beginning.

Originally posted by Arhael
Luke always relied on his intelligence. He never relied on his power alone and tried to use least Force possible.

Tall claim.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, ability to outwit someone in combat is part of intelligence.

It depends upon how this outwit part is accomplished.

Originally posted by Arhael
I recall first LotF fight with Lumya. She gave him fatal wound. He still managed to fight and outwit her. And he won not because of greater strength but because he shot her down with blaster.

This is a impressive feat of intelligence? Getting fatally wounded is not an example of intelligence. And Luke endured the wounds because of his power. A weak individual would have died in his place.

You talk about intelligence? See no further then epic duel between Mara and Caedus.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, a lot of Luke's achievements come, when he was still learning and nowhere near his full potential, so you can't say he wasn't among most intelligent. He constructed shoto to defeat Lumya first time - that is a lot of intelligence and creativity.

Yes. This is valid argument. Characters grow and change with passage of time. Luke have improved since NJO.

Originally posted by Arhael
He nearly died from Force blast of much more powerful Datomiri witch. He used Millennium Falcon (controlling it with Force better, than entire crew could) to kill her. - again intelligence and creativity to kill more powerful foe.

This is first good example from you. Yes, Luke is not dumb and learned from his experiences.

Originally posted by Arhael
I mirror it with Luke's examples anyway.
1. Didn't he plan to rise new Jedi Order?

Bastilla Shan did the same. And yet she isn't among the most intelligent combatants.

-> Taking Malak head-on when was DLOTS;

-> Taking Revan head-on Star Forge;

Building the Jedi Order is very different from rising to power through combat and violence.

Originally posted by Arhael
2. Didn't Luke plan to find Zonama Sekot to use it to end Yuuzhan Vong war without utter race annihilation? This feat alone is one of the greatest examples of intelligence in the works.

How does this example establishes him as a very intelligent combatant?

Originally posted by Arhael
3. Didn't Luke planned to deal with the Lost Tribe of the Sith? Didn't he plan on how to deal with Abeloth?

I have acknowledged this. Abeloth was a big threat and some planning was needed to tackle her.

Originally posted by Arhael
4. Didn't he plan on how to deal with the rebellious Jacen after learning about his atrocities?

Yes. But during the fight? Where was his intelligence then?

S_W_LeGenD Senior Member

Originally posted by Arhael
Is it prove that his lightning was more lethal than Palpatine's? Is it prove that Revan was better at it, than Yoda and Marek? Also, I am, yet, to hear anything intelligent in Vititate's combat. [/B]

Hint: Focus on how Revan handled Nyriss. Everything else will fit the bill.

Arhael Devoid of reality

Since this fight is not documented, it would be better if you consult Mr. Drew in this regard (you can email him and wait for his response). Until then, you and I can only speculate.
Seriously? You do that, if you want. My assumptions are based on canonical evidence, while there is not a single evidence supporting your one. In novels and other materials no one ever demonstrated ability to utilize mind domination and Force lightning simultaneously and that includes Vitiate himself, in book he used these abilities separately.

Vitiate's powers surprised the Jedi.
Same stands for Marek, his powers will surprise Vitiate. 😉

Luke's analogy is useless in this context.

It has been established in SWTOR that no other individual could face the Emperor directly and not succumb to his influence besides JK. Satele's refusal to accompany JK in this fight affirms my point.

It has been established that JK is the only known Jedi to resist mind domination. But it proves nothing in terms of Satele, since she never faced him. Luke's analogy is perfect example.


Marek's fight with Sidious leaves more questions then answers.
It gives the most important answer that Marek was capable to defeat the most powerful Sith of all time.

You refuse to acknowledge any faults in your points. This is the issue.
They are faults only from your perception. I suggest you do a bit of self-analysis instead.

It does not guarantee's protection against Vitiate's telepathic powers. In addition, Marek will be unlikely to get enraged early on unless he realizes that his efforts are not working. He may not even get the chance.
I am not trying to prove that Marek is immune to domination (Although, I am sure of that). I am trying to prove that there is no guaranty that Vitiate will be able to mind dominate Marek. He might not even get a chance. I will concede, if you agree that odds of Vitiate vs Marek are 50/50.

You assumption is faulty. Neither Vader and nor Sidious have demonstrated the capability to dominate the minds of powerful individuals in the same manner as Vitiate has done. This is his speciality. Any attempt to put another Sith on par with Vitiate in this aspect is futile exercise. Sidious as of DE came close but this is it.
Palpatine mind dominated all mighty Luke, that feat alone is priceless.

The original assumption that mind domination works only on the weak minds is null and void with introduction of Vitiate.
You sure? Was there any character at least remotely as powerful as Vitiate. All his opponents were much less powerful. Can same be said about Marek? Not at all.

And then you expect to be taken seriously...

Jorus C'baot - Luke wasn't in his prime and couldn't defeat him alone.
Palpatine - no explanation needed.
Lord Nyax - Luke wasn't in his prime. Nyax was so powerful that nearly mind dominated Luke, Mara and Tahiri simultaneously. Then he tapped into Force nexus and became unstoppable. Tahiri managed to kill him with bag-bullets because he couldn't feel them in the Force.

Unu'Thul - draining power from entire Killik colony. Luke had to expose their common past. And at no point he overpowered him.
Jacen - this is the only arguable example. Luke disabled him with Force by catching off guard. However, when they fought, Luke did not demonstrate any Force overpowering and got Force pushed himself. Jacen definitely had less potential but extra source acquired from using anger and pain gave him much more power, so as the result he was superior to his sister and a match for Luke.
Lord Talon - Pool of Knowledge gives roughly half power of Abeloth.

This places him on par with Obi-Wan at best.
Don't remember Force exhausted Obi-Wan handling anyone. And I am amazed at your intelligence comparison skills.

Brain fart?
Ass thought?

Again and again, I have to remind you that you need to support your assumptions with evidence if you plan to convince me.
Yoda at the end of the fight with Palpatine got Force exhausted. Luke by the time last Slayer was alive got exhausted. Koro Zill lost fight to Luke because got Force exhausted. Also, Vitiate was "weakened", not completely exhausted, which is not as bad and long to revitalize.

Nephthys highlighted Scourge's opinion. Was the fight harder with Lightside choices?
He responded to that as well. 😉

Abeloth was reckless and not very smart.
How long did it take her to become Head of State and Sith Grand Master? She lost because of crazy idea to make Son and Daughter out of Ben and Vestara. Same for Vitiate, he lost because of crazy idea to consume galaxy.

This is a impressive feat of intelligence? Getting fatally wounded is not an example of intelligence. And Luke endured the wounds because of his power. A weak individual would have died in his place.
Getting wounded is example of circumstances. You are focusing on wrong thing. Towards the end of the fight he had no power reserves left, mortally wounded and was laying on the floor, while she was standing, armed and intact, also, she was very intelligent combatant. But what happened next? She died (Almost).

Also, you missed one of my points, probably due to syntax error.
You said:

This is irrelevant. No fighting involved.
Yet, all 4 points about Vitiate you provided are irrelevant to combat. Ones again, maybe you give me any evidence of Vitiate intelligence in actual combat, since you discard Luke's intelligence outside combat as irrelevant?

Building the Jedi Order is very different from rising to power through combat and violence.
What?Jedi Order was risen through violence and combat. And don't try to argue it. There are countless examples, when someone was trying to destroy Order.

How does this example establishes him as a very intelligent combatant?
How any of your examples establish Vitiate as intelligent combatant?

You talk about intelligence? See no further then epic duel between Mara and Caedus.
You forgot about Jaina vs Jacen. 😉

Hint: Focus on how Revan handled Nyriss. Everything else will fit the bill.
Hint: Focus on how Revan's feats pale in comparison to Marek. Everything else will fit the bill.

Also, Yoda did similar feat with Dooku. So what?

S_W_LeGenD Senior Member

@ Arhael

Your arguments are not making sense anymore. I suggest that you do some serious thinking before you respond next time. Their is no need to rush.

Originally posted by Arhael
Seriously? You do that, if you want. My assumptions are based on canonical evidence, while there is not a single evidence supporting your one. In novels and other materials no one ever demonstrated ability to utilize mind domination and Force lightning simultaneously and that includes Vitiate himself, in book he used these abilities separately.

Really? Their are several examples which prove that Vitiate does not needs to subdue his opponent first to mentally dominate him/her. Your analysis is insignifcant/incomplete.

Even during second confrontation with Revan, Vitiate attempted to crush Revan's will without defeating him first. Revan saved himself with a special move. Otherwise......

I have pinpointed before that Vitiate's mental powers work like a weapon.

Originally posted by Arhael
Same stands for Marek, his powers will surprise Vitiate. 😉

No.

Originally posted by Arhael
It has been established that JK is the only known Jedi to resist mind domination. But it proves nothing in terms of Satele, since she never faced him. Luke's analogy is perfect example.

This is your opinion and not an established fact. Satele's reluctance has solid basis. She confronted many Sith but not Vitiate. Tol Braga's downfall further reinforced her perception.

Originally posted by Arhael
It gives the most important answer that Marek was capable to defeat the most powerful Sith of all time.

You do not understand TFU's story properly. You have harbored a kid's like perception about it. Hey look! Marek is so cool....... 🙄

Watch this alternate ending:

YouTube video

This gives you important clues about where Sidious stands in terms of power. And what could happen, if Sidious really had decided to kill Marek.

Fact is that Sidious did not wanted to kill Marek. He was in search for a better apprentice then Vader and Marek fit the bill. However, this was not to happen because Marek rejected the dark side - thanks to Vader's betrayals.

In the canonical ending, when Marek died; both Vader and Sidious were unhappy.

Get the memo now?

Originally posted by Arhael
They are faults only from your perception. I suggest you do a bit of self-analysis instead.

Repeated refusals like these will get you nowhere.

Originally posted by Arhael
I am not trying to prove that Marek is immune to domination (Although, I am sure of that).

Nice contradiction here.

Originally posted by Arhael
I am trying to prove that there is no guaranty that Vitiate will be able to mind dominate Marek. He might not even get a chance. I will concede, if you agree that odds of Vitiate vs Marek are 50/50.

We are not exchanging candies here. My intent is to establish most logical assessment of this hypothetical fight. If you are willing to open your mind and look outside the box of your personal likings, I am willing to work with you.

Even though I think that TFU is one of the worst things happen to Star Wars, I have nothing against Marek at personal capacity.

Vitiate's capability to mentally dominate both Satele and Marek should not be questioned without solid reasons. Vitiate's mental powers are extremely effective, as apparent from canonical information at hand.

Even if Marek and Satele somehow miraculously prevent Vitiate from mentally dominating them, he is far from being helpless. But yes, victory is possible in this scenario since both Satele and Marek are very strong and can coordinate their efforts. But this is just one possibility.

Originally posted by Arhael
Palpatine mind dominated all mighty Luke, that feat alone is priceless.

Still not on par with Vitiate's capability in this aspect. Palpatine managed to break Luke under favorable circumstances.

Originally posted by Arhael
You sure? Was there any character at least remotely as powerful as Vitiate. All his opponents were much less powerful. Can same be said about Marek? Not at all.

To be honest, Marek is not that special as you make him out to be. Yes, he is very powerful but he not invincible.

Mental powers came naturally to Vitiate and have served him well against heavy odds.

Here is his first;

"Lord Dramath intended to judge the child’s power to determine if he was worthy of serving the Sith Lord, or if he should simply be executed. But Tenebrae had no intention of serving—or of dying. When they met face-to-face, Tenebrae proved the stronger. Only ten years old, he stripped his father of his power and his mind. Lord Dramath spent his last moments weeping in terror, gazing up into the black eyes of his son."

Yes! Vitiate was stronger in this case but by how much margin? He was only 10 years old here.

Some years later;

"Once they arrived on Nathema, they quickly fell under Lord Vitiate's control. He dominated their minds, crushed their resistance. He turned them into slaves to his will, forcing them to participate in the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted. Calling on the dark side, Lord Vitiate devoured them. He fed on their power, absorbing it into himself, utterly obliterating all traces of his victims."

Vitiate against one hundred other Sith Lords. Brilliant by any stretch.

Many years later;

"We underestimated his power. When we confronted him, he didn't even have to fight us. Instead, he broke our wills. He dominated our minds, turning us into puppets to do his bidding. He sent us back to the Republic as the vanguard of his invasion, with instructions to report back when all resistance was crushed."

Vitiate against both Revan and Malak simultaneously. Impressive.

300 years further ahead;

Even JK fell to Vitiate's influence who was immensely powerful as per Vitiate's own admission. Mind you, JK was not weak during first confrontation with Vitiate. During this particular confrontation, Scourge pointed out to JK that he has not met any one as powerful from the Jedi Order and that JK was the Order's finest.

So.....

For;

1.

Originally posted by Arhael
Jorus C'baot - Luke wasn't in his prime and couldn't defeat him alone.

2.

Originally posted by Arhael
Palpatine - no explanation needed.

3.

Originally posted by Arhael
Lord Nyax - Luke wasn't in his prime. Nyax was so powerful that nearly mind dominated Luke, Mara and Tahiri simultaneously. Then he tapped into Force nexus and became unstoppable. Tahiri managed to kill him with bag-bullets because he couldn't feel them in the Force.

These examples do not support your intended argument. Luke got help in each of these examples. None of these examples establish that Luke used his intelligence to defeat more powerful adversaries by himself.

Originally posted by Arhael
Unu'Thul - draining power from entire Killik colony. Luke had to expose their common past. And at no point he overpowered him.

Luke dominated this individual in combat. Luke was much more powerful then Unu'Thul.

Seriously, Unu'Thul is a overhyped piece of garbage.

Originally posted by Arhael
Jacen - this is the only arguable example. Luke disabled him with Force by catching off guard. However, when they fought, Luke did not demonstrate any Force overpowering and got Force pushed himself. Jacen definitely had less potential but extra source acquired from using anger and pain gave him much more power, so as the result he was superior to his sister and a match for Luke.

Luke was more powerful even in this case. And you are wrong if you assume that Luke did not put much effort in this fight. Caedus was a force to be reckoned with and he was very smart as well.

Originally posted by Arhael
Lord Talon - Pool of Knowledge gives roughly half power of Abeloth.

What?

Originally posted by Arhael
Don't remember Force exhausted Obi-Wan handling anyone. And I am amazed at your intelligence comparison skills.

My point is in regard to this statement of yours: "Luke and Ben kept retreating, using positional advantage and outwitting them."

Obi-Wan's fighting style is similar.

Do you suffer from short-term memory loss?

Also, being Force exhausted, is not an valid argument in case of Gary-Stues like Luke and Ben.

Originally posted by Arhael
Ass thought?

Perfect indication of arguing for the sake of arguement.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yoda at the end of the fight with Palpatine got Force exhausted. Luke by the time last Slayer was alive got exhausted. Koro Zill lost fight to Luke because got Force exhausted. Also, Vitiate was "weakened", not completely exhausted, which is not as bad and long to revitalize.

So a duel can be more exhausting then a Galaxy-wide ritual? 🙄

S_W_LeGenD Senior Member

Originally posted by Arhael
He responded to that as well. 😉

No, he didn't. Because I have yet to ask him. Come back to your senses.

Originally posted by Arhael
How long did it take her to become Head of State and Sith Grand Master? She lost because of crazy idea to make Son and Daughter out of Ben and Vestara. Same for Vitiate, he lost because of crazy idea to consume galaxy.

Abeloth was a Sith now? 🙄

Facepalm also implied.

Originally posted by Arhael
Getting wounded is example of circumstances. You are focusing on wrong thing. Towards the end of the fight he had no power reserves left, mortally wounded and was laying on the floor, while she was standing, armed and intact, also, she was very intelligent combatant. But what happened next? She died (Almost).

I am putting things in context. You are claiming that Luke got wounded due to circumstances; I can say that this was the result of Lumiya's intelligence. And you need to clarify that how she died almost. Convey your message properly.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, you missed one of my points, probably due to syntax error.
You said:

Which point is this? Syntax error is at your end.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yet, all 4 points about Vitiate you provided are irrelevant to combat. Ones again, maybe you give me any evidence of Vitiate intelligence in actual combat, since you discard Luke's intelligence outside combat as irrelevant?

Really? Let us examine each point then:

1. Didn't Vitiate planned his rise to power in Nathema?

"Now orphaned by his own hand, he made the others in his village bow down to him. Those who refused, he tortured and killed through the Force.

Over the next few years his reputation and influence spread to nearby villages, and he amassed legions of both fanatical and terrified followers.
He killed thousands during his rise to power. Many died just to feed his insatiable appetite for suffering, tortured for days in public executions so he could savor their agonizing ends."

Vitiate's rise to power clearly has relevance to both his combat skills and intelligence.

2. Didn't Vitiate planned to trap the Sith Lords he invited to Nathema to use them for his agencda? This feat alone is one of the greatest examples of intelligence in the works.

Vitiate's ultimate plan for immortality was dependent upon the cooperation of these Sith Lords. But getting many unknown Sith Lords to cooperate without hurdles and issues is not possible without significant popularity.

Therefore, the only method left was to make them cooperate forcibly and Vitiate did this;

"Once they arrived on Nathema, they quickly fell under Lord Vitiate's control. He dominated their minds, crushed their resistance. He turned them into slaves to his will, forcing them to participate in the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted. Calling on the dark side, Lord Vitiate devoured them. He fed on their power, absorbing it into himself, utterly obliterating all traces of his victims."

This feat also has relevance to both combat skills and intelligence of Vitiate.

3. Didn't Vitiate planned to deal with the Jedi? Didn't he planned on how to deal with Revan and Malak?

When Revan learned about hidden Sith, he decided to investigate this matter with help from Malak. This investigation led the Jedi to Dromund Kaas itself. Revan and Malak posed as mercenaries during this time and spent several months on learning as much about Vitiate and his Sith Empire as possible. They eventually decided to stop Vitiate due to his plan to invade the Republic. They planned to sneak inside Vitiate's stronghold and assassinate him. One of the Vitiate's followers decided to help the Jedi but she was actually leading them in to a trap.

When Revan and Malak eventually met Vitiate, it is clear what happened.

This feat also has relevance to both combat skills and intelligence of Vitiate.

4. Didn't he planned on how to deal with the rebellious Dark Council during the time of Revan after learning about its plot against him?

Here;

"I said he killed them all," Scourge replied. "All twelve members of the Dark Council—even those who weren't part of the conspiracy. He wanted
to send a message no one would ever forget."

"How is that possible?" Revan asked. "He attacked a dozen of the most powerful Sith Lords in their seats of power simultaneously? How many
troops does he have?"

"The Imperial Guard were only unleashed on Nyriss and two others. The Emperor must have assumed they were the ones least likely to answer
his summons. The other nine were called together in the hours before the attack to meet with the Emperor at his citadel. None of them left alive."

This feat also has relevance to both combat skills and intelligence of Vitiate.

Originally posted by Arhael
What?Jedi Order was risen through violence and combat. And don't try to argue it. There are countless examples, when someone was trying to destroy Order.

Jedi Order is established with combat and violence? 🙄

Simply put, their is no need to resort to combat and violence to convince people to embrace Jedi philosophy.

In the story of Luke, we do have the case of Exar Kun's spirit who attempted to disrupt his plans to rebuild the Jedi Order. However, Luke got his @ss handed to him in this fight. His students saved him. Such an impressive example to use for comparison. 🙄

Originally posted by Arhael
How any of your examples establish Vitiate as intelligent combatant?

His plans.

Originally posted by Arhael
You forgot about Jaina vs Jacen. 😉

Yes! Jaina did planned on how to deal with Caedus. But Caedus decided not to kill her.

Originally posted by Arhael
Hint: Focus on how Revan's feats pale in comparison to Marek. Everything else will fit the bill.

Extremely illogical point. Revan's performance on Star Forge does not impresses you? Yes! We do not see Revan moving a Star Destroyer with the Force but this does not suggests that he sucks in comparison to Marek.

You really need to stop behaving like a child and start embracing the larger picture of things beings discussed.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, Yoda did similar feat with Dooku. So what?

Dooku does not compares to Nyriss in this aspect.

------------------

Biggest problem with you is that you often do not think clearly before you respond. At least, in this debate you are not. You are just arguing for the sake of argument because your personal likings continue to prevent you from making a non-biased assessment of things being discussed in this thread.

Nephthys The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Question: Is there ever an explation for why the Hero of Tython can resist Vitiates mindcontrol or is it simply from being so powerful?

S_W_LeGenD Senior Member

Originally posted by Nephthys
Question: Is there ever an explation for why the Hero of Tython can resist Vitiates mindcontrol or is it simply from being so powerful?

No explanation yet. Maybe in the future.

Power does not seems to be the only criteria because JK was already very powerful at the end of Jedi Knight Act 2.

It is possible that;

1. JK may have come up with some kind of solution like Revan.

2. Vitiate did not attempted to crush the will of JK again.

Nephthys The Gr8est!!!!!!!!

Indeed, Wookiepedia says that you are released from his control with the help of the Force Ghost of your master, but it doesn't explain how you can resist him in the future. It's possible that being affected by it allowed te Jedi to figure out how to resist it, or that the Jedi simply grew too powerful to control. Afterall we know he grew in power simply because the Emperor kicks his ass the first time they fought yet the Knight was capable of defeating him the second. Vitiate may be beastly with telepathy, but logically someone just as powerful as himself like the Hero of Tython should be able to resist him.

Either way, Revan shows that the Emperor can be interrupted while he's trying to dominate someones mind. Personally I say that Marek can do this.

S_W_LeGenD Senior Member

Originally posted by Nephthys
Indeed, Wookiepedia says that you are released from his control with the help of the Force Ghost of your master, but it doesn't explain how you can resist him in the future.

This is true.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's possible that being affected by it allowed te Jedi to figure out how to resist it, or that the Jedi simply grew too powerful to control.

Maybe. But then we have example of Satele Shan as well, who regardless of being very powerful, was still reluctant to confront Vitiate.

Therefore, I wouldn't put too much faith on power factor alone.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Afterall we know he grew in power simply because the Emperor kicks his ass the first time they fought yet the Knight was capable of defeating him the second.

He wouldn't have grown much in power during the events of Jedi Knight Act 3 because these events did not happened many years later. However, the events of Jedi Knight Act 3 (temporarily) weakened Vitiate or put him in vulnerable position. JK took advantage.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate may be beastly with telepathy, but logically someone just as powerful as himself like the Hero of Tython should be able to resist him.

Not sure about this. Specially, if the the opponent does not knows Vitiate well.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Either way, Revan shows that the Emperor can be interrupted while he's trying to dominate someones mind.

This is true.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Personally I say that Marek can do this.

Not as easy as it sounds. Psychological factors should also be taken in to consideration. Marek does not knows Vitiate well or understand his powers properly.

Nephthys The Gr8est!!!!!!!!
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is true.

Of course.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Maybe. But then we have example of Satele Shan as well, who regardless of being very powerful, was still reluctant to confront Vitiate.

Therefore, I wouldn't put too much faith on power factor alone.

Nothing suggests that Satale is close enough to the Hero of Tython or Vitiates powerlevels for her to be able to resist him. Besides which, we don't know if she couldn't resist him , only that she believes that she wouldn't be able. She could be wrong.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He wouldn't have grown much in power during the events of Jedi Knight Act 3 because these events did not happened many years later. However, the events of Jedi Knight Act 3 (temporarily) weakened Vitiate or put him in vulnerable position. JK took advantage.

Its unknown how long the period time is that the game spans, but we've seen that its possible for jedi to grow in power exceedingly quickly, such as in the case of Kyle Katarn and Jaden Korr. This goes double if the Hero of Tython uses the darkside, which is known to allow to grant power extremely swifly.

They were also inside a powerful darkside nexus though. Was Vitiate weakened more than he was boosted by that?

However there is another possibility. Its possible that the being who faced the Hero of Tython at the end of the JK Act 2 quest was the Emperors True Body, while the one he faced at the end of the game was merely the Emperors Voice. Its possible that the Voice cannot use his telepathic powers, either at all or not to their full extent.

Thats just a possibility though.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Not sure about this. Specially, if the the opponent does not knows Vitiate well.

Theres nothing indicating that the Emperor's mind-controlling powers are unblockable.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is true.

Not as easy as it sounds. Psychological factors should also be taken in to consideration. Marek does not knows Vitiate well or understand his powers properly.

Revan was able to sense Vitiate preparing to attack, so will Marek. Furthermore, Vitiate is one of the most influential figures in Galactic History, and at the time of TOR the council knew about his abilities, including his telepathic ones. Vader and Starkiller had access to that knowledge, so its very probable that Marek knows about his abilities, and he certainly knows who he is.

Arhael Devoid of reality
No, he didn't. Because I have yet to ask him. Come back to your senses.

You didn't notice this:
We don't see the fight. It happens during gameplay. Scourge's statement stands.

Abeloth was a Sith now? 🙄

Facepalm also implied.

Irrelevant

I am putting things in context. You are claiming that Luke got wounded due to circumstances; I can say that this was the result of Lumiya's intelligence. And you need to clarify that how she died almost. Convey your message properly.
Luke got distracted by Alima's hatred projection. Lumya used that exact moment to strike him. Yes, it shows her intelligence. At the end Luke put three blaster bolts into her chest. She was thought dead for a while. He was disarmed, Force exhausted, fatally wounded and on his ass at that point and still won.


"Now orphaned by his own hand, he made the others in his village bow down to him. Those who refused, he tortured and killed through the Force.
Over the next few years his reputation and influence spread to nearby villages, and he amassed legions of both fanatical and terrified followers.

He killed thousands during his rise to power. Many died just to feed his insatiable appetite for suffering, tortured for days in public executions so he could savor their agonizing ends."
Vitiate's rise to power clearly has relevance to both his combat skills and intelligence.

So you are calling 6+ child intelligent and skilled combatant? 🤣 He was mind dominating whoever was nearby to him. Sith came and same fate awaited him. Indeed he was wunderkind. 😄 He didn't need intelligence, his power alone ensured his dominance. He didn't learn any skills, he simply toyed with enormous power he possessed.

2. Didn't Vitiate planned to trap the Sith Lords he invited to Nathema to use them for his agencda? This feat alone is one of the greatest examples of intelligence in the works.

Vitiate's ultimate plan for immortality was dependent upon the cooperation of these Sith Lords. But getting many unknown Sith Lords to cooperate without hurdles and issues is not possible without significant popularity.

Therefore, the only method left was to make them cooperate forcibly and Vitiate did this;

This feat also has relevance to both combat skills and intelligence of Vitiate.

This is intelligence in convincing and mind influencing, it is irrelevant to combat. He didn't need intelligence in combat. He simply mind controlled them and they were unable to resist. Simple example of his superior power. What combat skills you talk about I have no clue, when they simply couldn't resist his mind domination. Blatant overpowering, a human stomping a cockroach.

Didn't Vitiate planned to deal with the Jedi? Didn't he planned on how to deal with Revan and Malak?
Ones again how is it relevant to combat and what is intelligent about it? He simply allowed them to come in, which doesn't strike as very intelligent thing. They came and bowed down to him without any fight. Another example of his superior power that he doesn't need to come up with anything clever. Just let them in and overpower. Simple.

4. Didn't he planned on how to deal with the rebellious Dark Council during the time of Revan after learning about its plot against him?
This feat also has relevance to both combat skills and intelligence of Vitiate.
Ye, gathering all Sith in one place, very intelligence. His intelligence in combat goes as far as throw Force lightning barrage, if mind domination for some reason didn't work. Again it is demonstration that he simply walks in and kills them all without need to come up with something clever.

Jedi Order is established with combat and violence? 🙄
There were countless attempts to destroy Order by darksiders, by Yuuzhan Vong and military.

Simply put, their is no need to resort to combat and violence to convince people to embrace Jedi philosophy.
Simply put, there is no need to resort to combat and violence, when you can bend will of anyone and make them do what you want.

His plans.
Plan to let them come in, then mind dominate or, if doesn't work, unleash Force lightning is indeed very intelligent approach of Vitiate. 👆

Yes! Jaina did planned on how to deal with Caedus. But Caedus decided not to kill her.
At which point he decided not to kill her?

Extremely illogical point. Revan's performance on Star Forge does not impresses you? Yes! We do not see Revan moving a Star Destroyer with the Force but this does not suggests that he sucks in comparison to Marek.

You really need to stop behaving like a child and start embracing the larger picture of things beings discussed.

So defeating Malak equates to defeating Palpatine? 😄 Don't be kidding yourself.

Dooku does not compares to Nyriss in this aspect.
Really? Prove?

Biggest problem with you is that you often do not think clearly before you respond. At least, in this debate you are not. You are just arguing for the sake of argument because your personal likings continue to prevent you from making a non-biased assessment of things being discussed in this thread.
I would say exactly the same about you but it is all useless rant. I suggest you refrain from that as it only increases already huge message size without any help.