Odin Vs Phoenix

Originally posted by Mr Master
It's official, the PF has been retconned.

It seems it's been downgraded from being able to destroy the contents of a What If reality,
to a Galactic power.

In 616, it was never more than a Star system killer.

Considering that Tom Brevoort doesn't believe in ABC logic when it comes to cosmic level fights , its still unclear where both PF and Odin stand in the cosmic hierarchy now(although according to Brevoort , PF is now below Skyfather level) .

FAN : "Hi Tom. In Thor 300, the combined power of a couple of sky fathers couldn't do serious harm to any one Celestial. Since that time, we've also witnessed Odin essentially stalemate Galacuts. How was Galactus able to destroy two Celestials in FF"

TomBrevoort 27 Mar :
"Because, as I keep saying, these situations aren't transitory. As in any other area of competition, one guy can beat another guy, who can beat another guy, who can beat the first guy. It's not math."

Also , can you answer some of the previous questions I asked you in this thread ? It'll be really helpful if you can clarify my queries .

Originally posted by Damborgson
I'm not following the event as closely as I should so I don't know much about who;s writing it except for Bendis. Is Brevoort writing any of it or is he just giving his opinion?

Hickman is also writing it . To my knowledge , Brevoort isn't part of the team of writers for the AvX event .

Fraction, too, I believe.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller

Holding a friggin orphan universe
now suddenly means that Jean manipulated every aspect of the 616-universe ?!

The whole scenery is filled with Morrison abstract symbolism.

I once too thought she had an actual reality in her hands (15104)
I now know that isn't the case.

Yea, ignorance has her "casually amputating a Timeline from the Multiverse"
or "casually manifesting the component parts of Eternity/Infinity reality 616"

LOL!!!

As for Jean supposedly "casually amputating a Timeline from the Multiverse" ... lol

Actually:

Jean extracted Sublime's atoms from the "Here Comes Tomorrow" (reality 15104)
and shifted herself into the White Hot Room:

(excerpt from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe - "Here Comes Tomorrow" bio)

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on panel proof:

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As we can clearly see:

Jean extracts Sublime,
and then shifts into the WHR
this causes the amputation/disinfection of Reality 15104's future because Sublime is gone,
as Jean literally stated right there On Panel, as the Handbook literally corroborates.

NOTE:

When Jean says, this is "a coordinate disinfection. My friends were keeping you busy."

It clearly indicates this task (removing Sublime) was NOT easy for her
besides that it took her 6 pages of Prep, while her friends all died:

[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/11935557_S1.jpg]
[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/11935558_S2.jpg]
[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/11935559_S3.jpg]
[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/11935560_S4.jpg]
[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/11935561_S5.jpg]
[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/11935562_S6.jpg]

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So, it's quite evident, that removing Sublime's atoms from Reality was not easy

Anyway,
Jean hands over Sublime (symbolically representing the present crisis in 15104)
to the PF consciousness.

The PF consciousness explains that while reality 15104 is still damaged,
it can be healed.

The PF consciousness takes Sublime somewhere, a pink Crystal is displayed, (Mkraan?)
and it's anyone's guess what the hell is going on in there

Jean is THEN told to "heal wound ... make better future .. grow quick"

Ok. Fine.

As we can see, unto this point,
Jean hasn't done anything except for "extracting Sublime's essence and shifting into the WHR"

We know it took her 6 Pages of prep,
and even her friends were died in the process to distract Sublime.

Jean literally tells Sublime "this is a coordinated disinfection"

Jean ends up in the WHR with Sublime in her hands and states:
"Intelligent bacterial colony gone rogue (Sublime)"I had to amputate the whole future"

So:

For White Phoenix of the Crown (reality 15104 Jean Grey)
Extracting Sublime's atoms is a difficult task (6 pages of prep)
and extracting Sublime's atoms and removing them from Reality = amputation/disinfection of said reality.

"Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once isn't as easy as it sounds ...
not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown"

----------------------------------------------------------------

The visualization of Reality 15104 (possible 616 future) which appears in her hands,
comes afterwards.

So obviously Jean can't be attributing her comment to a feat she hasn't performed yet:

The ONLY feat she's perform up to this point is still, extracting Sublime's atoms.

Heck, she doesn't even know what the hell is in her hands,
yet in pure fabricated fashion she's supposedly manifesting 616 or even 15104 atomically?

What?

To change Scott's mind?

😆

..................................................................................................

Anyway!

..................................................................................................

And what does Jean do?

What did she do when she said, "Live Scott?"

Jean touched Scott's Past-Self from withIN the WHR,
changed Scott's mind about his life, Emma & the X-Men,
and then Scott's decision Alters Reality 15104.

..................................................................................................

According to Grant Morrison's Editors of the arc:

(excerpt from the Questionnaires addressed to the Writers, last page New X-Men #155)

..................................................................................................

On Panel verification:

In 616, Scott walks away from Emma & the X-Men: (HCT - Reality 15104 is created)

..................................................................................................

Jean reaches back in time (150) to 616,
Jean changes Scott's mind so that Reality 15104 will not be created:

..................................................................................................

Scott stays with Emma & the X-Men:

..................................................................................................

Notice the official "Here Comes Tomorrow" Bio literally states ...

... IT WAS Scott's decisionthat Altered Reality 15104 ...

"Letting go of Cyclops and willing him to live ...

In the modern era of Earth-616 ...

Cyclops took up the responsibility of running the X Institute ...

unknowingly ensuring that at least One apocalyptic Future ...

would Not come to fruition" ...

.................................................................................

And cats got her manipulating the atoms of 616 ...

What?

To change Scott's mind? ... I disagree.

Grant Morrison Editor's themselves told us what happened EXACTLY!!!!

.................................................................................

Again ... According to the Editors of the story:

[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/11935919_PF20.jpg]

"It was Scott's decision to walk away from Emma
that set the apocalyptic events of 'Here Comes Tomorrow' in motion
(Scott inadvertantly Created Reality 15104 withy a decision)

and Jean made sure that Future would never take place"

HOW WILL Jean Do This?

(what I've always said)

"By making him stay with Emma instead" ....

.................................................................

Originally posted by TheGodKiller

Since , in all your bouts with GS ,
you failed to convince him of the truth ,
can you try with the more dimwitted versions of him on comicvine ,
i.e lord_oraculous and LordOfAllHumans ?

Originally posted by Mr Master

lol. Unfortunately intransigence isn't easy to budge, many times impossible,
but you can always copy and paste whatever you wish here, and smack them dow over there.

I got banned over there , for trying to follow the forum rules by notifying a mod(Vance_Astro) about multiple dbz vs comics threads(they are taboo at Comicvine) that had been posted.

lord_oraculous's bs was especially hilarious , as he used your scans to claim that Wanda had a scale of power greater than IG , and that it was the PHOENIX which reversed Wanda's spell . Although unlike GS , he's not stupid enough to claim that PF>LT , and in the WPC vs LT thread , (un)wisely stated that it would be a stalemate b/w the 2 , using a scan in which the LT basically treats the PF as his personal pet !

Also , can you clarify whether the Xorn and Shi'ar laser incidents
happened with the actual PF , or a firebird avatar ?

Originally posted by Mr Master
It's official, the PF has been retconned.

It seems it's been downgraded from being able to destroy the contents of a What If reality,
to a Galactic power.

In 616, it was never more than a Star system killer.

I remember reading a thread in which GS repeatedly spouted nonsense about a "Pre-Retcon IG" , in referrence to low showings by its ALTERNATE UNIVERSE counterparts .
I guess it'll come to bite him in the back , now(through Brevoort's interview) that we can have the term going around about a "Pre-Retcon Phoenix Force" eh ?

Originally posted by TheGodKiller

Wanda had a scale of power greater than IG ,
and that it was the PHOENIX which reversed Wanda's spell .

The 616 IG was not around during HOM,
and Wanda imo, achieved "Godhood" just as well.

Who would win imo, is a debate.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller

Also ,
can you clarify whether the Xorn and Shi'ar laser incidents
happened with the actual PF ,
or a firebird avatar ?

The "firebird" avatar is as powerful as the PF will ever manifest.

So really, if the PF is more powerful in its natural state,
what difference does it make if it's an unconscious Concept.

It's like fighting Eternity, you can't smack "Time" by swinging at the air
which "Time" passes through since it moves everything along.
No.
You have to smack a manifestation of his (namely an M-body)
then you can literally smack "Time" in the face.

Eternity's form (M-body) is as powerful as he's ever come to battle.

Basically,
this is how "Concepts" interact and/or battle,
by manifesting in a form.

Same shit

We also know the PF was born,
so it was dead when the previous universe collapsed.

In fact, via most updated Canon,
the Phoenix Force came at some point after Space-Time (Eternity/Infinity)

It always did before this as well, the handbook clarifies this, but now it's explicit.

This is from the last issue of Avengers vs X-Men:

Notice Tony also says he's building a "Phoenix killer"
by manipulating universal expansion.

Originally posted by Mr Master
For me, the IG makes one "God" beneath the LT.

The 616 IG was not around during HOM,
and Wanda imo, achieved "Godhood" just as well.

Who would win imo, is a debate.

Wasn't it revealed in Children's Crusade by Dr Doom that the REAL source of Wanda's powers was the Life-Force ? So the real debate , imo , lies between Life-force powers and the power of the IG .

Also , I believe the most powerful unamped mutants of all time are Franklin Richards , Mad Jim Jaspers and Legion . Since MJJ is now dead , and Wanda's powers were retconned to being derived from the life-force , Franklin conveniently gets the title of "most powerful mutant" , although Legion can possibly take his place .

Originally posted by Mr Master
This is from the last issue of Avengers vs X-Men:

Notice Tony also says he's building a "Phoenix killer"
by manipulating universal expansion.

Phoenix-Buster armor. 👆

I don't want to at times, but its hard not to respect Iron Man.

Originally posted by Mr Master

This is from the last issue of Avengers vs X-Men:

Notice Tony also says he's building a "Phoenix killer"
by manipulating universal expansion.

If anything , those scans indicate that the PF is NOT the Big Bang . I guess , Hickman was probably referring to the real life Large Hadron Collider through Tony's statement : "Particle accelerators simulate the big bang" .
Also these statements "At the beginning of space-time , cosmic death and rebirth were only microseconds apart ."
"Clearly the bird was born in that moment."
Seem to suggest that the PF , like all the matter-energy in the universe , was AFTER/FROM the Big Bang , and thus is not the big bang itself .

Originally posted by TheGodKiller

If anything , those scans indicate that the PF is NOT the Big Bang . I guess , Hickman was probably referring to the real life Large Hadron Collider through Tony's statement : "Particle accelerators simulate the big bang" .
Also these statements "At the beginning of space-time , cosmic death and rebirth were only microseconds apart ."
"Clearly the bird was born in that moment."
Seem to suggest that the PF , like all the matter-energy in the universe , was AFTER/FROM the Big Bang , and thus is not the big bang itself .

There was a misconstrued and incorrect statement made by a writer via the Watcher,
then there was the inconclusive writer that had Reed making an ambiguous statement.

Good thing later on,
the actual "spark" that ignites creation was displayed On Panel,
and it had nothing to do with the PF.
This "spark" was created from within the Alien Entity,
and indeed, he also re-created the original Big Bang with it,
and merged with the Fires/Engines of Creation as the Big Bang.

This time, Reed Richards was actually there, he helped,
so I'm sure he won't be confused ever again. 🙂

This interpretation is supported by Marvel's bios.

I have the feeling the PF will redeem itself (in more ways than one) just off of these images of AvX #6 variant covers.

Here's are a few details:
Following the world changing effects of Avengers VS. X-Men #5, the Marvel Universe will face a dramatic change unlike any fans have ever seen before bringing the action packed first act to a close. Then, the comic book event of the summer kicks into overdrive as Act Two begins in Avengers VS. X-Men #6! Thought you knew everything about the Phoenix Force and what it’s capable of? Think again, True Believer! Get in on all the excitement as Avengers VS. X-Men #5 and Avengers VS. X-Men #6, hit comic shops, the Marvel Comics app, and Marvel Digital Comic Shop this June.

The MU will face a dramatic change?
No more Avengers?
A connection between the Force & Wanda? mmm

Originally posted by Mr Master
Right, although the PF was never the Big Bang to begin with.

Never said it was . I only pointed out that in the scans provided by you that its now confirmed on-panel , that the PF , like everything else in the universe , was born FROM the big bang , at a moment "microseconds" after the beginning of space-time . And Beast , Tchalla and Pym , all 3 agree with this assessment .
Hence , now we have on-panel confirmation that the PF is NOT the big bang . It is a primordial entity born microseconds after the beginning of space-time . If anything , this seems to suggest that Eternity and Infinity are more ancient than the Phoenix .

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Fraction, too, I believe.

Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Hickman is also writing it . To my knowledge , Brevoort isn't part of the team of writers for the AvX event .

Its a huge cluster phuck....bigger mess than the Onslaught saga.

Originally posted by Sundipped
I have the feeling the PF will redeem itself (in more ways than one) just off of these images of AvX #6 variant covers.

Here's are a few details:
Following the world changing effects of Avengers VS. X-Men #5, the Marvel Universe will face a dramatic change unlike any fans have ever seen before bringing the action packed first act to a close. Then, the comic book event of the summer kicks into overdrive as Act Two begins in Avengers VS. X-Men #6! Thought you knew everything about the Phoenix Force and what it’s capable of? Think again, True Believer! Get in on all the excitement as Avengers VS. X-Men #5 and Avengers VS. X-Men #6, hit comic shops, the Marvel Comics app, and Marvel Digital Comic Shop this June.

The MU will face a dramatic change?
No more Avengers?
A connection between the Force & Wanda? mmm

The Life Force!? 🥷

Galaticstorm and Mr. Master will have a field day with that. Another 100 page epic in the brewing.

Originally posted by Sundipped
I have the feeling the PF will redeem itself (in more ways than one) just off of these images of AvX #6 variant covers.

Here's are a few details:
Following the world changing effects of Avengers VS. X-Men #5, the Marvel Universe will face a dramatic change unlike any fans have ever seen before bringing the action packed first act to a close. Then, the comic book event of the summer kicks into overdrive as Act Two begins in Avengers VS. X-Men #6! Thought you knew everything about the Phoenix Force and what it’s capable of? Think again, True Believer! Get in on all the excitement as Avengers VS. X-Men #5 and Avengers VS. X-Men #6, hit comic shops, the Marvel Comics app, and Marvel Digital Comic Shop this June.

The MU will face a dramatic change?
No more Avengers?
A connection between the Force & Wanda? mmm

Dude, if I'm wrong like with the Odin/Galactus incident, I'll straight up admit it and change my Avatar and Sig to respect the PF for 30 days (like I did for Galactus). But I have a feeling I'm right this time because of Brevoort's comments concerning the PF and Mjolnir's enchantments.

Originally posted by zopzop
Dude, if I'm wrong like with the Odin/Galactus incident, I'll straight up admit it and change my Avatar and Sig to respect the PF for 30 days (like I did for Galactus). But I have a feeling I'm right this time because of Brevoort's comments concerning the PF and Mjolnir's enchantments.

Yeah I'm looking foward to seeing a new avatar from you as well as Mr M rearranging his cosmic hierarchy. Whatever spot he has the witch in is gonna have to be substituted with the PF. 😈

Originally posted by Sundipped
Yeah I'm looking foward to seeing a new avatar from you as well as Mr M rearranging his cosmic hierarchy. Whatever spot he has the witch in is gonna have to be substituted with the PF. 😈