@JinsokuTakai @truejedi
Excellent points, both.
Luke versus Mace, with just passive Force-enhancing abilities, and just a saber duel?
If this is (NJO Beginning) Luke, then Luke gets destroyed with only moderate difficulty for Mace.
If this is (NJO Ending) Luke, then Luke wins after the most difficult lightsaber battle of his life.
Im not sure about that. I have a feeling he could find a harder one, simply because the Vapaad-cycle won't be occuring. Not to mention that while yes, Mace is a great duelist, I don't think he is up to the caliber of Luke at this point. Luke not only had (some) knowledge of quite a few Prequel forms, a great knowledge of Djem So, and the 3 circles of attack developed by the Jedi under him (or did he make them? not sure) and his style purportedly used Djem So, Ataru, and Soresu as of ROTJ. (Wookieepedia, dont take that as complete truth) And if he throws in some of the new styles, Mace will have to strain himself to recognize how it all works, especially with both people having access to shatterpoint. (Luke had it as of this point, right?)
Originally posted by Pwned
Im not sure about that. I have a feeling he could find a harder one, simply because the Vapaad-cycle won't be occuring. Not to mention that while yes, Mace is a great duelist, I don't think he is up to the caliber of Luke at this point. Luke not only had (some) knowledge of quite a few Prequel forms, a great knowledge of Djem So, and the 3 circles of attack developed by the Jedi under him (or did he make them? not sure) and his style purportedly used Djem So, Ataru, and Soresu as of ROTJ. (Wookieepedia, dont take that as complete truth) And if he throws in some of the new styles, Mace will have to strain himself to recognize how it all works, especially with both people having access to shatterpoint. (Luke had it as of this point, right?)
Mace can still feed off his own dark Force energy to win the fight - even if he can't feed off Luke's.
And Mace was traditionally-trained from birth and likely has a much better conventional grasp of lightsaber swordsmanship than this Luke.
That, and the new styles didn't strike me as being very sophisticated - just bastard compilations and re-creations of old Forms.
It wouldn't throw Mace off one bit - and by this time I think only Mace has Shatterpoint - so even though it's in his favor here in some ways - Luke still wins.
I haven't kept up with the series names, to be honest. I read them if I can, sure, but the name of the series doesn't matter unless it changes the entire mythos around (ala, Vong war)
The new styles aren't sophisticated, they are Soresu combined with Ataru (light) I think it was Shien combined with Niman (medium) and of course, Juyo combined with Djem So (heavy)
Mace feeding off his own love of fighting is a great swordsman, but I don't think he is on par with Luke. The cycle is what makes him be in the top 3 of the Prequel era. Its my opinion Kenobi could take him 😛
Originally posted by Pwned
I haven't kept up with the series names, to be honest. I read them if I can, sure, but the name of the series doesn't matter unless it changes the entire mythos around (ala, Vong war)The new styles aren't sophisticated, they are Soresu combined with Ataru (light) I think it was Shien combined with Niman (medium) and of course, Juyo combined with Djem So (heavy)
Mace feeding off his own love of fighting is a great swordsman, but I don't think he is on par with Luke. The cycle is what makes him be in the top 3 of the Prequel era. Its my opinion Kenobi could take him 😛
Stay off the Cocaine. 😉 😛
Originally posted by Pwned
It has just seemed to me that the whole "Omg Vapaad uber winzorz" is really over played. I mean, if Mace were THAT good, why didn't he just go kill Grevious?
It is that good, because of it's mechanics.
And by that point in the Clone Wars, the Jedi and Jedi Leadership were stretched thin. Yoda and Mace were needed elsewhere, so Obi-Wan was sent to deal with him, instead.
Originally posted by Pwned
That and Vapaad fights like Grevious does. Offense makes your defense. But if the other guy makes defense his offense, your screwed.
No, you're not.
That's where Shatterpoint comes in. And because of it, the other person can only defend so long until he is overwhelmed, and his Shatterpoint is found.
Don't worry, I have read Shatterpoint (recently, actually) so its fresh on my mind how all of it works and how Mace fights.
But when it comes down to it, Mace was not needed anywhere more important. Ending the war was the priority, and it was believed killing Grevious was the way to do it. But Kenobi was supposedly the "most qualified" Now, I can see why Yoda didn't, Grand Master and all that, but Mace was just Master of the Order (I can't remember what all that entails, I will look it up real quick)
And yes, if somebody is nothing but offense, which is what a deep Vapaad immersion becomes, then Soresu will be its immediate counter. And 20 strikes per second I believe is Kenobi's breaking point, which Mace can not replicate.
Originally posted by ares834
Windu is skilled, but by NJO Luke Skywalker is too much. Recall how he he pretty much soled that Vong army... That was awesome.Also want to point out that the author of TUF, James Luceno, hinted that Luke used Vaapad in TUF saying that he intentionally made it sound like Luke was using it.
IIRC Luke was in a Battle Meld with Jacen and Jaina at the time, so that wasn't something he could always do, presumably.
Well if so that is complete bullshit imo. I hate how Luke pulls super-advanced techniques literally out of his ass without any actual training. Its just so Sue-ish.
Originally posted by Nephthys
IIRC Luke was in a Battle Meld with Jacen and Jaina at the time, so that wasn't something he could always do, presumably.
Was he? It's been awhile since I read, but I do rember Jacen and Jaina were pretty much gaping while Luke was killing it. Plus in the new Invasion comics Luke solos about a hundred Vong near the beginning of the war when he was still holding back. I'll see if I can find links.
Well if so that is complete bullshit imo. I hate how Luke pulls super-advanced techniques literally out of his ass without any actual training. Its just so Sue-ish.
Don't really care one way or another. Always hated Vaapad as it's pretty much an insta-victory over any dark sider in saber combat. I'd rather have Windu just be that good.
Originally posted by Pwned
Don't worry, I have read Shatterpoint (recently, actually) so its fresh on my mind how all of it works and how Mace fights.But when it comes down to it, Mace was not needed anywhere more important. Ending the war was the priority, and it was believed killing Grevious was the way to do it. But Kenobi was supposedly the "most qualified" Now, I can see why Yoda didn't, Grand Master and all that, but Mace was just Master of the Order (I can't remember what all that entails, I will look it up real quick)
No, they were pretty much just being complementary to Kenobi.
By that time in the war, a lot of the Jedi were dead or displaced, and Mace was needed for the defense and leadership of Coruscant (You know - The Galactic Capital) and Yoda was needed for the defense and leadership of Kashyyyk.
So Mace couldn't be spared for tracking down Grevious, even though he could have killed him in a lightsaber duel, as he defeated Sidious, who could defeat Grevious in a lightsaber duel.
And Mace's position of "Master of the Order" was related to his leadership of the High Jedi Council.
Mace defeated Grevious before, and of course he could do it again - but neither he nor Yoda could be spared from their important positions. Important to understand that.
Originally posted by Pwned
And yes, if somebody is nothing but offense, which is what a deep Vapaad immersion becomes, then Soresu will be its immediate counter. And 20 strikes per second I believe is Kenobi's breaking point, which Mace can not replicate.
There's nothing that says Mace can't replicate that. And it's kind of silly to say he couldn't.
Mace is very likely much quicker than Kenobi - with better reflexes and Shatterpoint which will sort through Kenobi's defenses and strike his weakpoint.
Soresu may be the answer to Juyo - but it's not the answer to Vapaad, hence Vapaad being the deadliest Form, and for more than one reason.
Again, Mace took down Darth Sidious, but I'd be amused to see how long Obi-Wan's Soresu could stand up to Darth Sidious's Juyo - before Darth Sidious and his Juyo, killed Obi-Wan and his Soresu.
- Very important to remember and note these things.
Originally posted by Nephthys
IIRC Luke was in a Battle Meld with Jacen and Jaina at the time, so that wasn't something he could always do, presumably.Well if so that is complete bullshit imo. I hate how Luke pulls super-advanced techniques literally out of his ass without any actual training. Its just so Sue-ish.
I know, totally..
Luke was the focal point of a Jedi mind meld during [most?] of the invasion into Shimrra's citadel, which calls the extent of his power output into question. On the other hand, given his earlier conversation with Jacen concerning Skywalker's fear of the dark side limiting his use of the Force in combat leading to battle fatigue, it could be that Luke was simply drawing on the Force much more than usual in combat and reaping the obvious benefits. Such calculated ease of restraint is what enables him to defeat UnuThul during the climax of the Swarm War.
As for the fight in question, I believe Skywalker is at a clear disadvantage in terms of technical skill. While he is a prodigy of epic proportions who undoubtedly mastered lightsaber combat, Windu is the beneficiary of a thousand years of uninterrupted dedication to lightsaber combat. His mastery of Juyo/Vaapad requires him to be a high end master of multiple lightsaber forms.
On the other hand, what Skywalker lacks in [relative] technical skill, he compensates for in his superior Force connection. Bane and Kas'im both believed that natural strength in the Force affords an overwhelming advantage unless there is a tremendous deficit in skill, which may allow Skywalker to win the duel. Likewise, though Windu is an undisputed master of the shatterpoint charism, Luke is a known practitioner of this {though it isn't clear when he developed the power; perhaps it was during LOTF, though I believe LSATSOM implies he knew it during that time} which may even the playing field. Finally, Luke's light side alignment means that Windu won't benefit from the superconductive loop of Vaapad.
Therefore I'd say that Luke takes it after a difficult battle.
Originally posted by BattlemasterThere are.... quite a few problems here.
No, they were pretty much just being complementary to Kenobi.By that time in the war, a lot of the Jedi were dead or displaced, and Mace was needed for the defense and leadership of Coruscant (You know - The Galactic Capital) and Yoda was needed for the defense and leadership of Kashyyyk.
So Mace couldn't be spared for tracking down Grevious, even though he could have killed him in a lightsaber duel, as he defeated Sidious, who could defeat Grevious in a lightsaber duel.
And Mace's position of "Master of the Order" was related to his leadership of the [B]High Jedi Council
.Mace defeated Grevious before, and of course he could do it again - but neither he nor Yoda could be spared from their important positions. Important to understand that.
There's nothing that says Mace can't replicate that. And it's kind of silly to say he couldn't.
Mace is very likely much quicker than Kenobi - with better reflexes and Shatterpoint which will sort through Kenobi's defenses and strike his weakpoint.
Soresu may be the answer to Juyo - but it's not the answer to Vapaad, hence Vapaad being the deadliest Form, and for more than one reason.
Again, Mace took down Darth Sidious, but I'd be amused to see how long Obi-Wan's Soresu could stand up to Darth Sidious's Juyo - before Darth Sidious and his Juyo, killed Obi-Wan and his Soresu.
- Very important to remember and note these things. [/B]
