NJO Luke vs. Mace Windu (lightsabers only)

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vader's [B]defenses were overpowered. [/B]

"Vader had sought only to turn him, had kept Luke alive..."

Luke's rage attack was what Vader had planned, had hoped for. Vader could well have defended against it if he so chose to, but opted not to in hopes that Luke would fall to the dark side during his outburst. Vader WANTED Luke to succumb to anger and rage as these emotions lead to the dark side. I think the movie is clear in this regard.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Sorry man, but no. The fundamental definition of overpower means to subdue;

O`ver`pow´er
To excel or exceed in power; to cause to yield by superior power; to vanquish; to subdue; as, the light overpowers the eyes.

If I allow my son to "beat" me by holding back against an opponent who is FAR outmatched/outclassed, then it can hardly be stated that he 'overpowered' me. Moreover, since overpower means to subdue, I provide the following:

Not so.
If, in a fight with your son, you restrain yourself and he overcomes you, then the force/power he applied was superior than what you applied. Therefore he still overpowered you. Nowhere does the definition require that maximum resistance be in play.

Merriam-Webster
1: to overcome by superior force: subdue
2: to affect with overwhelming intensity <the stench overpowered us>
3: to provide with more power than is needed or desirable <a dangerously overpowered car>

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
sub·due/s&#601;b&#712;d(y)o&#862;o/
Verb:
Overcome or bring under control (a feeling or person).
Bring (a country or people) under control by force.

Now, it cannot be said that I have been brought under control when in fact I can choose to do what I want, whenever I choose, if that's what I choose to do. Get it? And when arguing Star Wars, semantics is extremely important, especially in this type of setting since every little detail is scrutinized.

Of course it can. In this scenario with your son, if you restrain yourself and he doesn't, and he gets the better of you, your restraint may enable your son to put you into a position where you haven't any control left. In the case with Vader and Luke, Vader may not have been applying all his power and skill to harm Luke, even though the battle may have ended differently had he not. But once Vader's literally disarmed, weaponless, and on the floor with his son's blade hovering dangerously close to his throat, then he may no longer have the means to turn the tables even if he wished to. Luke can still be said to have overpowered Vader and Vader was still subdued.

Now, as I said earlier, if your son is like five years old and you fall to the ground intentionally and so forth in a grotesquely exaggerated display of defeat, then I'd agree with you. But there's a difference between intentionally letting your son put you on your ass (which the term wouldn't apply) and not attacking with the same level of intent your son is and being knocked down as a result (which the term would).

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
"Vader had sought only to turn him, had kept Luke alive..."

Luke's rage attack was what Vader had planned, had hoped for. Vader could well have defended against it if he so chose to, but opted not to in hopes that Luke would fall to the dark side during his outburst. Vader WANTED Luke to succumb to anger and rage as these emotions lead to the dark side. I think the movie is clear in this regard.

This.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Vader could well have defended against it if he so chose to, but opted not to in hopes that Luke would fall to the dark side during his outburst.

Yes but he certainly didn't want Luke to kill him in the process and join the Emperor instead. If he could have kept up his defenses then he certainly should have. And I've not read anything that even implies he lost on purpose.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Vader WANTED Luke to succumb to anger and rage as these emotions lead to the dark side. I think the movie is clear in this regard.

Yes, whilst Luke did not even want to fight (for the most part).

The novel seems to have Luke genuinely overpowering Vader in Sabers.
Of course we know Vader never used the Force on him. If he did it would have been a Dooku choking Obi-Wan type thing, which is what Luke admits himself in Courtship.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Star-Wars-Phantom-1243/vader-luke.htm

Question
how come vader doesn't love luke?he is afterall his son,of a girl he loved more than anything in the galaxy.he hates him and want to turn hem to the dark side an bring hem before the emperor,but in ROTJ,when luke gifs himself up,vader and luke conversade:luke:*come with me(to the light side he meens) vader:*it is allready to late for me,my son*.why does he say that (for ME)when he wants to take luke to the dark side or he will die?and the last question(sorry😖),in the fight vader-luke in ROTJ the emperor says to luke when vader heres it*give in to your anger,take your fathers place next to my side*and when he onarmed his father*goood,now,kill him*why does vader not respond?I meen,thats not feare for him🙂

Answer
Ok, first of all, in all the Saga I mostly see signs of Vader LOVING Luke, here are some of my reasons:

- In Episode 5 during his duel with Luke in Bespin, he had the opportunity to kill him at least 2 or 3 times. He did not because he cared for him, as his son, he wanted Luke to join him and "..rule the galaxy as father and son..".

- In Episode 6 he sees in Luke the Jedi he always wanted to be. Even Luke says to him "..I feel the good in you, the conflict...", he eventually saves Luke from a certain death knowing that would probably bring his own death. He even says that Luke saved him, saved him from the dark side, no matter he knows he is dying there, he is glad because he knows and feels Luke saved him.

Anakin loved Luke and the prove is that his love for Luke took him out of the dark side, and Luke's love for Anakin came directly for his mother, remember, when Luke is born and in Obi-Wan's arms, Padme says refering to Anakin "..there is still good him, there is..", so that was in Luke's heart forever, and he even says that to Vader in Episode 6 "..there is still good in you..". So, everything is connected perfectly, no matter how dark was Anakin's turn, the love between him and Padme eventually saved them all. I hope this answers your question. Thank You.

Luke didn't kill him DP. Courtship definitely implies that he could have easily killed Luke had he wanted to. In other words, he LET him (as in majorly held back in order to draw Luke to the dark side) win. The Novel's depiction of the fight is irreconcilable to other newer material that portrays Vader as a nearly unstoppable badass. NEWS FLASH: By holding back and wanting Luke to use his rage in hopes of Turning to the dark side, Vader effectively LOST ON PURPOSE.

Those pictures are so cute haha. 😛

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Ok, first of all, in all the Saga I mostly see signs of Vader LOVING Luke, here are some of my reasons:

- In Episode 5 during his duel with Luke in Bespin, he had the opportunity to kill him at least 2 or 3 times. He did not because he cared for him, as his son, he wanted Luke to join him and "..rule the galaxy as father and son..".

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Luke didn't kill him DP. Courtship definitely implies that he could have easily killed Luke had he wanted to. In other words, he LET him (as in majorly held back in order to draw Luke to the dark side) win. The Novel's depiction of the fight is irreconcilable to other newer material that portrays Vader as a nearly unstoppable badass. NEWS FLASH: By holding back and wanting Luke to use his rage in hopes of Turning to the dark side, Vader effectively LOST ON PURPOSE.

ROTJ script
117 INT EMPEROR'S TOWER - THRONE ROOM

Luke and Vader are engaged in a man-to-man duel of lightsabers even
more vicious then the battle on Bespin. But the young Jedi has grown
stronger in the interim, and now the advantage shifts to him. Vader is
forced back, losing his balance, and is knocked down the stairs. Luke
stands at the top of the stairs, ready to attack.

EMPEROR (laughing)
Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy! Let the hate flow through
you.

Luke looks momentarily toward the Emperor, then back to Vader, and
realizes he is using the dark side. He steps back, turns off his
lightsaber, and relaxes, driving the hate from his being.

ROTJ script
LUKE
Never-r-r!

Luke ignites his lightsaber and screams in anger, rushing at hisfather
with a frenzy we have not seen before. Sparks fly as Luke and Vader
fight in the cramped area. Luke's hatred forces Vader to retreat out of
the low area and across a bridge overlooking a vast elevator shaft.
Each stroke of Luke's sword drives his father further toward defeat.

The Dark Lord is knocked to his knees, and as he raises his sword to
block another onslaught, Luke slashes Vader's right hand off at the
wrist, causing metal and electronic parts to fly from the mechanical
stump. Vader's sword clatters uselessly away, over the
edge of the platform and into the bottomless shaft below. Luke moves
over Vader and holds the blade of his sword to the Dark Lord's throat.
The Emperor watches with uncontrollable, pleased agitation.

The script indicates that Luke was legitimately a challenge for Vader, especially when making use of the dark side. But the film makes it pretty obvious that Vader's heart isn't in killing Luke. If Vader wanted Luke dead, his command of the Force would have probably enabled him to do it. But otherwise, I'd say this is another example of the long running theme in Star Wars that an inferior opponent abusing the dark side can overcome an otherwise more skilled/powerful adversary (cf. Maul vs. Obi-Wan, Anakin vs. Dooku, etc.)

They're like the Twilight vampires that way.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Luke didn't kill him DP. Courtship definitely implies that he could have easily killed Luke had he wanted to. In other words, he LET him (as in majorly held back in order to draw Luke to the dark side) win. The Novel's depiction of the fight is irreconcilable to other newer material that portrays Vader as a nearly unstoppable badass. NEWS FLASH: By holding back and wanting Luke to use his rage in hopes of Turning to the dark side, Vader effectively LOST ON PURPOSE.

There is a big contradiction between what the Original script and novel showed (i.e. the intial intention) and what more recent material shows.

Of course we all agree, Vader could have easily taken Luke out had he used his Force Tk.

The question is did he fake losing the Saber portion of the fight? I would think with Luke giving into his rage, and Vader's mechanical parts really limiting his mobility, that it's not completely unreasonable to throw out the possibility that Luke actually was winning the Saber portion of the fight.

Even though Vader wouldn't have killed Luke (Although the "You are unwise to lower your defenses" line may be an argument against that), I also don't believe he would purposefully lose.

Simply because if Luke really turned to the Dark Side, he would have been capable of killing Vader in that winning position and joining the Emperor instead. Something that neither Sith Vader or Jedi Anakin would want.

Originally posted by crisis_ryitua
...I'd say this is another example of the long running theme in Star Wars that an inferior opponent abusing the dark side can overcome an otherwise more skilled/powerful adversary (cf. Maul vs. Obi-Wan, Anakin vs. Dooku, etc.)

I overcame your mother last night 😎

Spoiler:
She let me

A better one would have been, "thanks to me, your mother overcame last night," for it implies that, due to your sexual prowess, she enjoyed a particularly powerful orgasm.

Originally posted by Arhael

Windu accepts fury of opponent, that's for sure. But there is no real evidence that he can draw actual power coming from opponents and redirect it. And even, if we assume he could, why restrict it only to dark power? Surely it could then be used to redirect power of other Jedi.

The Jedi seem like they try and keep their power much more in them, while the Sith more broadcast it to overwhelm. Aggressive and active vs reactive and passive.

Originally posted by Q99
The Jedi seem like they try and keep their power much more in them, while the Sith more broadcast it to overwhelm. Aggressive and active vs reactive and passive.

Force users draw on the Force. The Force is all around and it goes into them, not out, unless they utilize offensive Force abilities. There is no power coming out. There is only the Force and it's all around.