NJO Luke vs. Mace Windu (lightsabers only)

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It's hard to discern your point...

My point is, Luke did make it clear later on, with Gethzarion, and at Leia's dumb courtship with Han, that Vader had held back on him.

Vader had made it emotionally clear, both at the end of ESB, and during RotJ that he didn't want Luke to get hurt or die - and this came out bit by bit.

Originally posted by dgeoro_scattere
Not that I'm deciding one way or another, but Luke can still be said to have overpowered Vader even if Vader were holding back.

No. You cannot "overpower" someone when they are holding back. If I let my son beat me at wrestling, then it cannot accurately be said that he overpowered me.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
If Vader hadn't held back at any point in that fight, Luke would be dead.

Remember, Vader, not holding back = TFU Vader.

Vader, even before coming face to face with Luke, didn't want to hurt or kill him. That's why when he discussed Luke's fate with the Emperor on one of the Star Destroyers, Vader said that he wanted Luke to come to him, and then the Emporer said, ( In Palpatine voice) "Lord Vader, I wonder if your feelings in this matter are clear..?"

Vader, from the end of ESB onward, didn't want to really hurt or kill Luke - in fact, you could tell that Vader really loved Luke.

A full-force Vader would have made deadly, un-prejudiced strikes with a lightsaber, and used his TK abilities to hurl Luke against the bulkheads, etc.

Though, this is somewhat obvious..

I think it was pretty obvious that Vader wasn't going all-out, but that when Luke went ballistic and put him on hs ass Vader was legitimately overowered.

In other words, on Vader's end, it's kind of subtle.

(On Dathomir)

But Luke's all, "Oh man! Is this what Dad would have been like, if he hadn't been holding back on me..?"

(Luke at Leia's wedding-reception)

Leia: "Yeah, so you and Dad fought a while back...eh?"

Luke: "Yeah..he held back."

Leia: "That's why you're standing here, able to talk to me?"

Luke: "Yup."

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
No. You cannot "overpower" someone when they are holding back. If I let my son beat me at wrestling, then it cannot accurately be said that he overpowered me.

Exactly!

And you've made this point before, in another thread. 😉

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Is that all from Luke's perspective? Cuz the RotJ novelization gives us both his and Vader's. It's a pretty solid confirmation that Vader wasn't holding back.

Yeah it is. I'm curious though, what part of the duel is from Vader's perspective? The way I have always viewed the fight was that throughout most of the fight Vader was toying with Luke and trying to tip him towards darkness. But he pushes too hard, Luke snaps, and then Vader is defenseless against Luke's rage induced onslaught.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
No. You cannot "overpower" someone when they are holding back. If I let my son beat me at wrestling, then it cannot accurately be said that he overpowered me.

Yes. If your son subdues you with greater force than what you're applying against him, he's overpowered you. If you never lift a hand against him and fall down on purpose, then sure, I'd agree.

Originally posted by dgeoro_scattere
Yes. If your son subdues you with greater force than what you're applying against him, he's overpowered you. If you never lift a hand against him and fall down on purpose, then sure, I'd agree.

Didn't Vader weigh like a thousand pounds?

It might be difficult to overpower that much applied force.

It's an issue of semantics.
The word "overpower" connotes factual, complete superiority in whatever area is being discussed. But all it means is that one is applying superior force than and against another, which remains the case if one combatant refuses to unleash.

I remember reading somewhere that Vader's full-powered strikes had so much weight behind them, that they would cause the other combatant's wrists to sprain/break.

I believe that may be TFU.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Didn't Vader weigh like a thousand pounds?

It might be difficult to overpower that much applied force.

Originally posted by Arhael
Didn't Vader have breath difficulties? And wasn't he slowed down by his armor, which you claim weigh thousand pounds?
It might be difficult to outlast much younger, fitter and faster opponent.

Arhael...

Go get some candy, you've earned it.

😛 😆

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Arhael...

Go get some candy, you've earned it.

😛 😆

Originally posted by Arhael
Had plenty already, perhaps, you could give me some more.

I lol'd in real life. 😛

Originally posted by Nephthys
Major Valerian will become more powerful than either of us.

Oh, stop it you.

But yeah you're right.

The truth shall be profile'd.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
I lol'd in real life. 😛

Originally posted by Arhael
And I had plenty of candies for real. Cadbury Variety! 😄

Did you think I was talking about real candy, or sex? 😄

Real candy, of course..............