NJO Luke vs. Mace Windu (lightsabers only)

Originally posted by Battlemaster
My point is, Luke did make it clear later on, with Gethzarion, and at Leia's dumb courtship with Han, that Vader had held back on him.

Vader had made it emotionally clear, both at the end of ESB, and during RotJ that he didn't want Luke to get hurt or die - and this came out bit by bit.

But anyway... I know Luke said all that. I also know that Yoda considered himself to be the most awesome foe the darkness had ever known. The character can think whatever the hell they want, I don't care--they're not omnipotent beings with full knowledge about everyone and everything else that ever existed. Ever.

I had this exact same conversation with TJ, I think, about... two years ago now. I wound up having to type out entire passages from the novel

Passages
"For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him... Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge."

"His anger was layered, now - he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness."

To the author's discredit (poor James Kahn), he makes Luke think something extremely stupid and contradictory after that paragraph. He has him recollecting that, because Vader didn't kill him over the Death Star trench, or at Bespin, then there must be good in him. I don't know which movies he watched, but the shots Vader fired at Luke "I have you now!" weren't proverbial love taps. And enticing Luke to join him in the Dark Side so they could destroy the Emperor and rule together does not smack of fatherly love, or even good intentions. The whole "good" thing arose kinda out of nowhere.

Follow that up with:
"This accusation really made Vader angry. He could tolerate much from the insolent child, but this was insufferable. He must teach this boy a lesson he would never forget, or die learning."

Then his moment of doubt:
"Vader felt his intentions increasingly ambiguous in this conflict; the purity of his evil was being compromised. The boy was clever indeed - Vader knew he must move with extreme caution now.

Then his return to Darkness:
"Vader was incredulous. 'Sister? Sister!' he bellowed. 'Your feelings have now betrayed her, too ... Twins!' he roared triumphantly. 'Obi-Wan was wise to hide her, but now his failure is complete.' His smile was clear to Luke, through the mask, through the shadows, through all the realms of Darkness. 'If you will not turn to the Dark Side, perhaps she will.'"

This is the last line in this scene that details Vader's mentality--suffice to say, his last thoughts before being disarmed are of triumphant evilness. Holding back, my ass.

Now I have to admit, as much as I laud the Original Trilogy, the novelizations of the films aren't that great. This chapter in particular always felt sorta rushed and hurried along, and the sentiments of the two main characters jump around a lot; from Luke's clarity to megalomania to manipulation to clarity to doubt to rage to clarity. And Vader following a similar path. But what matters more to us, is Vader. He goes in to this fight confident of the "purity of is evil" and pontificates how, as much as he wants Luke alive for his own selfish purposes, he's perfectly willing to kill him if he won't cooperate. One insult from the kid actually prompts Vader to huck his lightsaber at him. Luke makes the very odd claim that Vader's failure to kill Luke due to Han Solo's intervention is actually a sign of Vader's goodness is really weird and misplaced. That makes Vader doubt for a moment (though he still considers it just a clever trick by Luke--as if spontaneous bouts of goodness are actually tactics). But he regains his confidence after Luke can't help thinking about and fearing for Leia, thus revealing an alternate choice to Luke, and possibly even leverage to use against Luke.

I'm not sure if you're just interpreting the novel differently than I am, but what I get from it is that Vader was genuinely beaten by an enraged Luke. No reservations or hesitations on Vader's part, just outright defeat. Which from a narrative standpoint, is a-OK. But I guess if you want to imagine a reconciliation between the EU and the movie material, then... no, there's nothing that'll help you. The EU is too inconsistent with the films.

Originally posted by ares834
Yeah it is. I'm curious though, what part of the duel is from Vader's perspective? The way I have always viewed the fight was that throughout most of the fight Vader was toying with Luke and trying to tip him towards darkness. But he pushes too hard, Luke snaps, and then Vader is defenseless against Luke's rage induced onslaught.

Originally posted by Major Valerian
Real candy, of course..............

I'm just teasing. I think Arhael was trying to bother me for sex or something.. 😛

Anyway..

I know you're just teasing, that was the point of my post.

🥷

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Cutting off Luke's hand, bludgeoning him with metal objects, and watching him fall to his seeming death is your idea of Vader "not wanting Luke to get hurt or die"?
But anyway... I know Luke said all that. I also know that Yoda considered himself to be the most awesome foe the darkness had ever known. The character can think whatever the hell they want, I don't care--they're not omnipotent beings with full knowledge about everyone and everything else that ever existed. Ever.
I had this exact same conversation with TJ, I think, about... two years ago now. I wound up having to type out entire passages from the novel
[b]Passages
"For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him... Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge."
"His anger was layered, now - he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness."
To the author's discredit (poor James Kahn), he makes Luke think something extremely stupid and contradictory after that paragraph. He has him recollecting that, because Vader didn't kill him over the Death Star trench, or at Bespin, then there must be good in him. I don't know which movies he watched, but the shots Vader fired at Luke "I have you now!" weren't proverbial love taps. And enticing Luke to join him in the Dark Side so they could destroy the Emperor and rule together does not smack of fatherly love, or even good intentions. The whole "good" thing arose kinda out of nowhere.
Follow that up with:
"This accusation really made Vader angry. He could tolerate much from the insolent child, but this was insufferable. He must teach this boy a lesson he would never forget, or die learning."
Then his moment of doubt:
"Vader felt his intentions increasingly ambiguous in this conflict; the purity of his evil was being compromised. The boy was clever indeed - Vader knew he must move with extreme caution now.
Then his return to Darkness:
"Vader was incredulous. 'Sister? Sister!' he bellowed. 'Your feelings have now betrayed her, too ... Twins!' he roared triumphantly. 'Obi-Wan was wise to hide her, but now his failure is complete.' His smile was clear to Luke, through the mask, through the shadows, through all the realms of Darkness. 'If you will not turn to the Dark Side, perhaps she will.'"
This is the last line in this scene that details Vader's mentality--suffice to say, his last thoughts before being disarmed are of triumphant evilness. Holding back, my ass.
Now I have to admit, as much as I laud the Original Trilogy, the novelizations of the films aren't that great. This chapter in particular always felt sorta rushed and hurried along, and the sentiments of the two main characters jump around a lot; from Luke's clarity to megalomania to manipulation to clarity to doubt to rage to clarity. And Vader following a similar path. But what matters more to us, is Vader. He goes in to this fight confident of the "purity of is evil" and pontificates how, as much as he wants Luke alive for his own selfish purposes, he's perfectly willing to kill him if he won't cooperate. One insult from the kid actually prompts Vader to huck his lightsaber at him. Luke makes the very odd claim that Vader's failure to kill Luke due to Han Solo's intervention is actually a sign of Vader's goodness is really weird and misplaced. That makes Vader doubt for a moment (though he still considers it just a clever trick by Luke--as if spontaneous bouts of goodness are actually tactics). But he regains his confidence after Luke can't help thinking about and fearing for Leia, thus revealing an alternate choice to Luke, and possibly even leverage to use against Luke.
I'm not sure if you're just interpreting the novel differently than I am, but what I get from it is that Vader was genuinely beaten by an enraged Luke. No reservations or hesitations on Vader's part, just outright defeat. Which from a narrative standpoint, is a-OK. But I guess if you want to imagine a reconciliation between the EU and the movie material, then... no, there's nothing that'll help you. The EU is too inconsistent with the films.
No, as I just posted, Vader was genuinely worried and surprised at Luke's strength and power. He did what he could to defeat him, and in the end, had to resort to threats about Leia to try to demoralize him--which backfired. If anything, Palpatine saved Vader's ass at one point. Luke was musing on the possibility of supreme power (this was right after he kicked Vader down the stairs) and Palpatine encouraged him. This snapped Luke out of it, prompting him to "lower his defences". [/B]

So the novelizations of the movies hold to higher Canon than the movies, themselves?

And you realize that during the events of ANH, that Vader didn't know Luke was responsible for the main assault on the Death Star?

And Vader wanting Luke to rule alongside him, as opposed to killing him off, is loving - albeit negative encouragement.

This thread went south very quickly.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This thread went south very quickly.

Not unless Arhael keeps hitting on me. 😆

I c wut u did thar.

Intresting. Albeit incredibly stupid. Vader has no qualms about killing his son, but god help Palpatine if he ever attempts to kill Luke.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I had this exact same conversation with TJ, I think, about... two years ago now. I wound up having to type out entire passages from the novel.

Just go to the Russian site and copy and paste. Far easier.

I recall reading the novelizations many years ago. They weren't stellar reads, but the bonus was they did include scenes that were later included in remastered versions, such as Han Solo talking to Jabba in ANH.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This thread went south very quickly.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
So the novelizations of the movies hold to higher Canon than the movies, themselves?

And you realize that during the events of ANH, that Vader didn't know Luke was responsible for the main assault on the Death Star?

And Vader wanting Luke to rule alongside him, as opposed to killing him off, is loving - albeit negative encouragement.

2.) Of course I realize that. But the RotJ novel's author didn't seem to. Why did he include that line? A line that still wouldn't make sense even if Vader did know.

3.) Actually, it's not loving. Or good. Or merciful. It's cruel, opportunistic, manipulative, merciless, and evil. A quick death is much more endemic of "goodness" that what Vader had in mind.

Originally posted by ares834
Intresting. Albeit incredibly stupid. Vader has no qualms about killing his son, but god help Palpatine if he ever attempts to kill Luke.

Just go to the Russian site and copy and paste. Far easier.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I recall reading the novelizations many years ago. They weren't stellar reads, but the bonus was they did include scenes that were later included in remastered versions, such as Han Solo talking to Jabba in ANH.

True that.

I don't remember the Novelizations holding higher in Canon than the movies themselves, though.

That would mean all the stuff in the RotS novel is higher Canon than the movie..

Movies > novelizations. There's some very sloppy quotes from LFL that seem to equate the two, but it's generally agreed that ultimately only the movies and anything else -directly and unaltered- from GL is G-canon; anything that extrapolates on that or adds to it is C-canon.

But people around here have held the RotS novelization as G-canon simply to further certain viewpoints which I find are ridiculous.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Movies > novelizations. There's some very sloppy quotes from LFL that seem to equate the two, but it's generally agreed that ultimately only the movies and anything else -directly and unaltered- from GL is G-canon; anything that extrapolates on that or adds to it is C-canon.

But people around here have held the RotS novelization as G-canon simply to further certain viewpoints which I find are ridiculous.

Originally posted by Arhael
While this is part I am skeptical about but you actually made me reconsider it. I can't deny it as I know plenty of evidence myself about feeding on emotions of others. For example, Bane killed someone's children and fed on father's grief to heal some sort of illness (didn't read the book). It's just my perception of it is different.
For me power specifically improves TK feats and body strength and stamina.
While precision wholly depends on state of mind in general with no relevance to power.
And speed I discard as beautiful writing in novels. While some people can give lots of examples, where character moves "faster than eye can catch", I can give as many examples of powerful characters engaging in combat with non-Force users and sometimes even lose. For me speed is character's natural reaction he is born with and the fastest is the one, who can anticipate things faster/better with that natural reaction, than others.

In short I agree that Windu is better against darksiders but only in terms of having more physical strength and stamina. But not precision and speed, for them I give credit to his state of mind, the clarity and self-control that Vaapad gives Windu in general, which will work equally good against lightsiders.

It was in Path of Destruction, Githany poisoned him and he was using that fear to delay the poison til he could get a healers house. Its a good series, I would recommend reading it.

Would it be fair to say that in ROTS Yoda was actually the most powerful Jedi ever? Cause he was, wasn't he?

At least he was last thing I knew. Haven't read prequel stuff in a while.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Movies > novelizations. There's some very sloppy quotes from LFL that seem to equate the two, but it's generally agreed that ultimately only the movies and anything else -directly and unaltered- from GL is G-canon; anything that extrapolates on that or adds to it is C-canon.

But people around here have held the RotS novelization as G-canon simply to further certain viewpoints which I find are ridiculous.

Hmm, so are the excerpts from the OT Novels really valid in this discussion, then?

Originally posted by Major Valerian
Would it be fair to say that in ROTS Yoda was actually the most powerful Jedi ever? Cause he was, wasn't he?

At least he was last thing I knew. Haven't read prequel stuff in a while.

Of his own era? Unquestionably.

But of other eras, you have people like Luke, Satele Shan, Nomi Sunrider, etc. who had some incredible showings. Yoda is likely one of the wisest and nicest of Jedi Grand Masters, but he may be eclipsed by some who have more potential.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Hmm, so are the excerpts from the OT Novels really valid in this discussion, then?

Since it's difficult to debate what, aside from placenames and character names, came directly from GL, I'd say much of it is questionable if it seems to directly contradict the movie or an interview with GL clarifying some aspect of the movie.

Or you know, just ignore them altogether because they're padding to make money for LFL.

You think Nomi is more impressive than Yoda?

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Hmm, so are the excerpts from the OT Novels really valid in this discussion, then?

Yes, as long as they aren't contradicted.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Of his own era? Unquestionably.

But of other eras, you have people like Luke, Satele Shan, Nomi Sunrider, etc. who had some incredible showings. Yoda is likely one of the wisest and nicest of Jedi Grand Masters, but he may be eclipsed by some who have more potential.

I meant, including previous eras. Nomi Sunrider better than Yoda...?