NJO Luke vs. Mace Windu (lightsabers only)

Originally posted by Pwned
There are.... quite a few problems here.
1- A>B>C logic. Just because Sidious could beat Grevious, and Mace can beat Sidious, doesn't mean that Mace can beat Grevious. (not saying he can't, because he has)
2- Mace isn't as good as Sidious. He beat a guy who was only trying to stay alive, not kill him. Sidious was waiting for Anakin. Not to mention that is when Mace receives the benefits of the Vapaad cycle.
3- Vapaad is a modified Juyo. They are both Form VII.
4- If Sidious fought Kenobi, Kenobi would die. No doubts. But if Sidious went all out on Mace, force and all, i don't see Mace winning.
5- 20 attacks every second. It is physically impossible for Mace to replicate that, even with the force. Grevious is a friggin cyborg made to hunt jedi, so he gets the ridiculous crap. Mace can't do that.
6- Mace could have been spared to end the war. Coruscant had a much larger clone guard after the attack, and there were several other jedi who could have.
Fact is, if Mace were better suited to fighting pure offense than Kenobi was, he would have gone. Mace is a no nonsense kind of person, and if you read Shatterpoint, you can infer that if he thinks hes best suited to do the job, then he will do it.
7- Would you say Mace=Yoda? Its easily safe to say Yoda>Mace. Don't even have to think about it.But by your logic, Mace=Yoda. Heres the explanation:
Yoda=Sidious. Mace>Sidious. Yoda>Mace. Therefore, Mace>Sidious=Yoda>Mace. Makes no sense.

I sort of figured this would happen. 😛

1. Yeah - if Sidious can beat Grevious because of skills and reflexes, and Mace can beat Sidious because of skills and reflexes, then Mace can beat Grevious because of skills and reflexes.
Very much so.

2. Mace can either channel a Dark sider's darkness into a weapon of the light - or his own darkness into a weapon of the light.
Sidious lost fair and sqaure.
Mace defeated Kar Vastor and Grevious, before.
Mace still wins.

3. Vapaad is different from Juyo - it has the Superconducting-Loop and Shatterpoint and from what I understand was re-engineered to be deadlier.
They are not the same animal.

4. Speculation. But from what we do officially know - Mace won.

5. Neither can Kenobi - he only responded to it with blocks, and timed attacks though - things that Dooku and Sidious could do - and things that the man who could beat them, could do too.

6. Fact is, Mace was needed for the defense of the Galactic Capital - which they could not risk having it taken. This is moronically-obvious.
Mace knew he was needed on Coruscant, as Yoda was needed on Kashyyyk. Mace's Vapaad is geared for killing in either offense or defense and he could defeat Grevious again if he needed to.

7. Mace definitely equals Yoda when fighting a Dark sider in lightsaber combat, and is probably on par with him when even just channeling his own darkness as a potent power source.

I'd suggest reading Shatterpoint again, and then about five or six more times.

Mace isn't on par with Yoda. Yoda is "the greatest foe the darkness has ever known" (not racist at all.... ok maybe a little bit since Mace was in the same sentence) while yes, it is not necessarily combat related, I would wager a good deal is.

Vapaad is a modified Juyo that channels the users aggression into fighting ability, and helps prevent falling to the dark side. The superconducting loop is what makes it a modified version.

Shatterpoint is a compeltely different ability.

He defeated Kar, yes. But Kar doesn't hold a SHIT off of Haruun Kal. I explained it somewhere else as to why he wouldn't. I would be happy to again, but I would have to tomorrow. Getting late. Anyways:

He channels his own aggression into it anyways, but if he can feed off the active dark side energies of the other duelist, it becomes better. However, against Jedi, this loop does not occur, as they channel the Light, not the Dark (usually)

A>B>C is not a valid argument, ever. ROTJ Luke>Vader>Cin Drallig, and by your logic, that means that Luke could beat Cin Drallig. Heads up, Luke can't beat Drallig.

Originally posted by Pwned
Mace isn't on par with Yoda. Yoda is "the greatest foe the darkness has ever known"

Originally posted by Pwned
Mace isn't on par with Yoda. Yoda is "the greatest foe the darkness has ever known" (not racist at all.... ok maybe a little bit since Mace was in the same sentence) while yes, it is not necessarily combat related, I would wager a good deal is.

Uh. Duh. And Mace is on par with Yoda, in a few arenas.

Originally posted by Pwned

Vapaad is a modified Juyo that channels the users aggression into fighting ability, and helps prevent falling to the dark side. The superconducting loop is what makes it a modified version.

And Shatterpoint, among other things.

Originally posted by Pwned

Shatterpoint is a compeltely different ability.

It's used focally in Vapaad.

Originally posted by Pwned

He defeated Kar, yes. But Kar doesn't hold a SHIT off of Haruun Kal. I explained it somewhere else as to why he wouldn't. I would be happy to again, but I would have to tomorrow. Getting late. Anyways:

Hold a shit to whom? He's a tough mother****er.

Originally posted by Pwned

He channels his own aggression into it anyways, but if he can feed off the active dark side energies of the other duelist, it becomes better. However, against Jedi, this loop does not occur, as they channel the Light, not the Dark (usually)

Duh.

In that case he just channels his own darkness.

Originally posted by Pwned

A>B>C is not a valid argument, ever. ROTJ Luke>Vader>Cin Drallig, and by your logic, that means that Luke could beat Cin Drallig. Heads up, Luke can't beat Drallig.

Wrong

Vader held back on Luke, genius. Apples/oranges.

Again:

Yeah - if Sidious can beat Grevious because of skills and reflexes, and Mace can beat Sidious because of skills and reflexes, then Mace can beat Grevious because of skills and reflexes.
Very much so.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
According to Yoda.

Pwned is starting to make Arhael look brilliant.

😛

Originally posted by ares834
Well this is the best I could find.

Nice finds.
Invasion is one of the reasons that I reconsidered my views on Luke. He really is the single most overall effective combatant in the mythos, I think.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
According to Yoda.

Spoiler:
I see your point, but remember that the debate on this quote was literally done to death, even quite recently IIRC.
By no means it was decisively established that this observation comes from Yoda's perspective, nor was it firmly confirmed to be an absolute truth (though the quote discloses that Yoda realized the "truth", which supports the latter interpretation IMHO.)

Moving on....

Luke wins, but by no means it is an easy victory.

Originally posted by Pwned

5- 20 attacks every second. It is physically impossible for Mace to replicate that, even with the force. Grevious is a friggin cyborg made to hunt jedi, so he gets the ridiculous crap. Mace can't do that.

It was stated in the RotS novel that Mace's swordplay appeared as dozens of lightsabers attacking from every angle simultaneously. Dozens (being a multiple of 12 and therefore at least 24 is greater than 20). A specific number was never given, however it is heavily implied to be incredibly fast. Moreover, in Shatterpoint, Mace was able to hit Kar Vastor 6 times before he could blink (and really, how long does it take to blink?). Also, Mace was able to move his arms so fast that it literally appeared as though he had multiple arms instead of the normal two that most humans are limited to. The evidence is there that Mace is able to not only equal Grievous' speed, but surpass it by a considerable margin... especially by the time of RotS.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
According to Yoda.

No man, just... no. Otherwise we have Yoda referring to himself as a little green freak.

I had a very long post that was deleted by one mis hit key....

Anyways, Mace is great, no doubt about it. But when facing a dark sider like Sidious, one who pretty much embodies the dark side, he will be far better than he is against one who uses the Light side. His superconducting loop will not occur against a light sider, leaving him his own aggression, which he channels anyways, thats why he hasn't fallen and why he developed Vapaad.

Vastor, on the planet Haruun Kal, a planet steeped in the Dark Side, is the embodiment of the jungle that covers the planet. There, he is nearly unstoppable because of his attunement to the jungle. Off planet, he will not be as powerful.

I wouldn't put Mace on par with Yoda. Just my opinion though.

And cut a guy some slack sometimes, like most people here, I have a life to, so I can't exactly do my best at all times 😛

I wouldn't place Mace on par w/ Yoda either... not with all things considered anyway. However, from a strictly lightsaber related standpoint, it could be argued that Mace Windu is on or at the very least, near Yoda's level. Now bear in mind that I'm not necessarily saying that he is or isn't, just that it could be reasonably argued as such. Personally, I have yet to come to a conclusion on this matter.

Originally posted by axel_jovan

Spoiler:
I see your point, but remember that the debate on this quote was literally done to death, even quite recently IIRC.
By no means it was decisively established that this observation comes from Yoda's perspective, nor was it firmly confirmed to be an absolute truth (though the quote discloses that Yoda realized the "truth", which supports the latter interpretation IMHO.)

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
No man, just... no. Otherwise we have Yoda referring to himself as a little green freak.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
What? Palpatine referred to him as such. Yoda called himself an avatar of light and the most powerful foe thing. The perspective shifted in between pages.

SILENCE CANADIAN!!!!!!!!

You will not stop me.

Major Valerian will become more powerful than either of us.

Originally posted by SWblayde938
in an all out fight... (includind sabers and force) Luke would destroy Mace....

but what if it was just lightsabers

can luke defeat mace in just a saber fight?

Also want to point out that the author of TUF, James Luceno, hinted that Luke used Vaapad in TUF saying that he intentionally made it sound like Luke was using it.

As for Forms. They don't exist in Luke's universe. I read every single novel with him and the only thing that was mentioned is circles. Luke himself showed superior skill not by executing some arcane techniques or disciplines but simply by maintaining emotional stability fully trusting the Force and letting it guide his hands.

IIRC Luke was in a Battle Meld with Jacen and Jaina at the time, so that wasn't something he could always do, presumably.

But when facing a dark sider like Sidious, one who pretty much embodies the dark side, he will be far better than he is against one who uses the Light side.

Luke defeated more powerful and fit version of Sidious, yet, there were dramatic circumstances involved.
While I side with Luke, if it is not "galaxy depends on it" fight, then their duel will be more or less equal.

Originally posted by Battlemaster
Wrong

Vader held back on Luke, genius.

A conspicuous bag of money with a dollar sign on it says that the RotJ novelization denounces this as wrong.

Originally posted by Arhael
I can't agree with that. Vaapad is essentially state of mind. On first place it is about him using his own darkness.
Luke can give attacks as furious as Sidious, so Windu can accept that fury as effectively. Disagreeing with this would mean that Windu could absorb Palpatine's darkness as Force energy and redirect, which he certainly couldn't. This loop is all about enjoying fight and giving opponent's fury back, which is entirely psychological matter.

Thats what I understand of it, at least.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I just noticed this.

A conspicuous bag of money with a dollar sign on it says that the RotJ novelization denounces this as wrong.

If the novelization says that Vader didn't love Luke at all, then I'll have to concede to your point. 😉

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
It was stated in the RotS novel that Mace's swordplay appeared as dozens of lightsabers attacking from every angle simultaneously. Dozens (being a multiple of 12 and therefore at least 24 is greater than 20). A specific number was never given, however it is heavily implied to be incredibly fast. Moreover, in Shatterpoint, Mace was able to hit Kar Vastor 6 times before he could blink (and really, how long does it take to blink?). Also, Mace was able to move his arms so fast that it literally appeared as though he had multiple arms instead of the normal two that most humans are limited to. The evidence is there that Mace is able to not only equal Grievous' speed, but surpass it by a considerable margin... especially by the time of RotS.

Great points. 😉