Originally posted by ZettAnd here i must disagree with you Power. We all know, that in the book, at the end of the fight, Dooku was in terrible condition. Also, before that, Dooku was unable to fight both, Anakin and Obi-Wan, co he use... um... something like... hit and run strategy? Still it's noncanon, coz we know - from the movie - that he was able to fight them both, he successfully blocks their sabers in cross (I've hope that You can understand me here, still my english is quite poor). In fact in cross, he pushed their swords, and was able to kick Skywalker, and use TK on Kenobi.
After that, he was still able to easily blocks Anakin's strikes. Then he do the same, like Vader did in ROTJ - he provokes Anakin.
It wasn't Dun Moch (not at all), he wants Anakin angry.
I say this because if you look at their fights in the CW Skywalker is consistently stalemating Count Dooku on his own. In fact in the last episode he came very close to overpowering him.
Then consider Anakin was getting more powerful throughout the CW and by ROTS I just don't see Anakin losing to Count Dooku. In fact I only see Dooku losing. Anakin was simply too powerful for him by this point.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I say this because if you look at their fights in the CW Skywalker is consistently stalemating Count Dooku on his own. In fact in the last episode he came very close to overpowering him.Then consider Anakin was getting more powerful throughout the CW and by ROTS I just don't see Anakin losing to Count Dooku. In fact I only see Dooku losing. Anakin was simply too powerful for him by this point.
No he didn't Dooku was being cocky as usual and was engaging in saber locks one handed. No surprise he got put on his ass for that when he's going against a Djem So master.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No he didn't Dooku was being cocky as usual and was engaging in saber locks one handed. No surprise he got put on his ass for that when he's going against a Djem So master.
It's not cockiness. It's his style. He was fending off his Saber attacks with one hand, and constantly hitting him with the Force with his free hand.
They've fought plenty of times now, and they're consistently stalemating even when Dooku has 2 hands on his Saber.
I say this because if you look at their fights in the CW Skywalker is consistently stalemating Count Dooku on his own. In fact in the last episode he came very close to overpowering him.
It's good argument (like many others, when i discus with You). But this time, i must disagree. It's my opinion about this situation:
All this situation is arrangement by Darth Sidious. He probably want himself as a prisoner of Dooku (many of CIS leaders are prisoners now, and he probably want switch himself for them). He also want both - Anakin and Dooku - alive. It's to early for Dooku's death. So i assume, that Dooku holding himself before killing Anakin. But Anakin's using a lot of anger, and thanks that, he is able to find a little advantage over Count in a saber combat (Palpatine is smiling, because he sees, how powerful Anakin has become). After all, Dooku is able to find advantage over Anakin, when he mixed his force powers and saber skills. And at the end Kenobi ruined their plan.
In ROTS, Anakin was holding himself before using his anger, because Obi-Wan was there. And Dooku probably knows that. It looks like, Dooku has some advantage over them both. He may just assumed, that Anakin with his anger and fury, can gives him a fight similar to the previous - from TCW i mean (sry for that - i had a problem with this sentence). Then, even when Anakinn will be able to find advantage in sabers, Dooku will be able to overcome him with the force. But Anakin became much stronger (or he became zoanakin ;p ), so Dooku wasn't.
Then consider Anakin was getting more powerful throughout the CW and by ROTS I just don't see Anakin losing to Count Dooku. In fact I only see Dooku losing. Anakin was simply too powerful for him by this point.
Hard to say. I mean, if TCW directors and Lucas want keep rest of canon allright, then this episode is about <6 months before ROTS. I assume that about 3-4. So it's really close to ROTS.
Originally posted by ZettIt's good argument (like many others, when i discus with You). But this time, i must disagree. It's my opinion about this situation:
All this situation is arrangement by Darth Sidious. He probably want himself as a prisoner of Dooku (many of CIS leaders are prisoners now, and he probably want switch himself for them). He also want both - Anakin and Dooku - alive. It's to early for Dooku's death. So i assume, that Dooku holding himself before killing Anakin. But Anakin's using a lot of anger, and thanks that, he is able to find a little advantage over Count in a saber combat (Palpatine is smiling, because he sees, how powerful Anakin has become). After all, Dooku is able to find advantage over Anakin, when he mixed his force powers and saber skills. And at the end Kenobi ruined their plan.
Dave Filoni said he doesn't think Palpatine would stop Dooku killing Anakin. Because that would just prove Anakin wasn't strong enough to be his apprentice.
Same reason why in the CWmini cartoon he gave Ventress orders to kill Skywalker.
Originally posted by Zett
In ROTS, Anakin was holding himself before using his anger, because Obi-Wan was there. And Dooku probably knows that. It looks like, Dooku has some advantage over them both. He may just assumed, that Anakin with his anger and fury, can gives him a fight similar to the previous - from TCW i mean (sry for that - i had a problem with this sentence). Then, even when Anakinn will be able to find advantage in sabers, Dooku will be able to overcome him with the force. But Anakin became much stronger (or he became zoanakin ;p ), so Dooku wasn't.
I'm not saying it's necessarily impossible for Dooku to take him. But he would have to do it very early in the fight Imo. Because according to the novel and the script Skywalker gets stronger as the fight progresses.
And I really doubt he could take him out with the Force once Anakin gets into the fight, considering in their CW fights all his Force attacks do is push him back. They don't seem to permanently dispose of him at all. The closest he came was with a full on Lightning and TK combo. And even though that put him down for a bit, even that didn't knock him unconscious!
And he can't really rely on that because he can catch his Lightning with his Lightsaber.
I'm almost certain at this point that ROTS Anakin is just more powerful than Count Dooku.
Originally posted by Zett
Hard to say. I mean, if TCW directors and Lucas want keep rest of canon allright, then this episode is about <6 months before ROTS. I assume that about 3-4. So it's really close to ROTS.
Nah they will have to revamp the timeline eventually. That last fight was mid-late season 4. There will be at least 6 seasons of the show.
And besides didn't Anakin claim in ROTS that he'd become even more powerful since their last encounter??
Dave Filoni said(...)
I hate Filoni, and his word means nothing to me. I'm sorry, I hate this guy. Hm.. ok, just look: As I remeber, N. Gillard said, that Cin Drallig was on Kenobi's level. And we all know, that's bullshit.
In ROTS novel, when Dooku talking with Sidious, Sidious asking why Dooku wasn't spared Anakin's arm (smth like that?)... As I remeber, Dooku switch off his lightsaber, after fight with Anakin.
Dooku was never going to kill Anakin, except the last stage of their final fight. This fight on Invisible Hand was Anakin's final test, but Dooku didn't know that at all.
And once again, but short this time:
I still think, that:
- Count holding himself before killing Anakin (CW fight, I mean)
- A difference between Anakin in fury, and normal Anakin was huge (it's pretty obvious, when we look at his duels with Asajj - on Yavin, or Courscant).
- I think, that his skill wasn't good enough to defeat Count without anger (according to film, not a book)
- Anakin was using anger in a fight on Naboo, so he was able to take advantage
- Anakin wasn't using anger, until Dooku provoked him (rots)
- Finally, with anger or zone, Anakin was able to destroy Dooku
Originally posted by Zett
Dave Filoni said(...)I hate Filoni, and his word means nothing to me. I'm sorry, I hate this guy. Hm.. ok, just look: As I remeber, N. Gillard said, that Cin Drallig was on Kenobi's level. And we all know, that's bullshit.
In ROTS novel, when Dooku talking with Sidious, Sidious asking why Dooku wasn't spared Anakin's arm (smth like that?)... As I remeber, Dooku switch off his lightsaber, after fight with Anakin.
Dooku was never going to kill Anakin, except the last stage of their final fight. This fight on Invisible Hand was Anakin's final test, but Dooku didn't know that at all.And once again, but short this time:
I still think, that:
- Count holding himself before killing Anakin (CW fight, I mean)
- A difference between Anakin in fury, and normal Anakin was huge (it's pretty obvious, when we look at his duels with Asajj - on Yavin, or Courscant).
- I think, that his skill wasn't good enough to defeat Count without anger (according to film, not a book)
- Anakin was using anger in a fight on Naboo, so he was able to take advantage
- Anakin wasn't using anger, until Dooku provoked him (rots)
- Finally, with anger or zone, Anakin was able to destroy Dooku
All I'll say about the killing thing is that in the ROTS novel Dooku puts aside his plan Not to kill Anakin when he realizes he might lose the fight.
And also do you think Anakin was ever going for the kill against Dooku? Even when he defeated him, he simply chopped off his arms and wasn't going to kill him until Palpatine goaded him to.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
All I'll say about the killing thing is that in the ROTS novel Dooku puts aside his plan Not to kill Anakin when he realizes he might lose the fight.
Yeah, it's also my opinion. But difference between ours opinions, is when actually Dooku's decides to kill Anakin.
In my opinon, short (seconds i mean) after Dooku provoked Anakin, he realized, that Anakin's much stronger then him. So he decide to kill him, but it was far too late. Anakin wasn't defeated him, he just destroyed him.
And also do you think Anakin was ever going for the kill against Dooku? Even when he defeated him, he simply chopped off his arms and wasn't going to kill him until Palpatine goaded him to.
Yeah, he was. Until he realized, that he is able to disarms him. Then, he decided to cut off Dooku's hands. After that, some part of him wants Dooku's death, while the other part don't want to kill him (I assume, it was 50/50 if not Palpatine).
Originally posted by Zett
Yeah, it's also my opinion. But difference between ours opinions, is when actually Dooku's decides to kill Anakin.
In my opinon, short (seconds i mean) after Dooku provoked Anakin, he realized, that Anakin's much stronger then him. So he decide to kill him, but it was far too late. Anakin wasn't defeated him, he just destroyed him.
But it wouldn't have been too late if he was the more powerful combatant.
Originally posted by Zett
Yeah, he was. Until he realized, that he is able to disarms him. Then, he decided to cut off Dooku's hands. After that, some part of him wants Dooku's death, while the other part don't want to kill him (I assume, it was 50/50 if not Palpatine).
You will be hard pressed to prove Anakin was always trying to "kill" Dooku.
You will be hard pressed to prove Anakin was always trying to "kill" Dooku.
Uhhm... ok, I can try:
From te book (it's not prove for me, but it looks like You're fan ot this book, so...)
And in the space where Kenobi's chest had been was nowonly the blue lightning of Skywalker's blade driving straight forDooku's heart.
Only a desperate whirl to one side made what would havebeen a smoking hole in his chest into a line of scorch through hisarmorweave cloak.
And through the cross of their blades he saw in Skywalker'seyes the promise of hell(...)
But when Palpatine barks, "Do it! Now!" Anakin realizesthat this isn't actually an order. That it is, in fact, nothing morethan what he's been waiting for his whole life.
Permission.
[i]"I—I couldn't stop myself..."
And before the words left his lips he heard how hollow andobvious was the lie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeCuEx-JYP0
2:20... If he's not going to kill here....
Originally posted by ZettUhhm... ok, I can try:
No, no there is not try. Do or do not.
I DO prove you wrong.
Originally posted by Zett
From te book (it's not prove for me, but it looks like You're fan ot this book, so...)And in the space where Kenobi's chest had been was nowonly the blue lightning of Skywalker's blade driving straight forDooku's heart.
Only a desperate whirl to one side made what would havebeen a smoking hole in his chest into a line of scorch through hisarmorweave cloak.And through the cross of their blades he saw in Skywalker'seyes the promise of hell(...)
But when Palpatine barks, "Do it! Now!" Anakin realizesthat this isn't actually an order. That it is, in fact, nothing morethan what he's been waiting for his whole life.
.
[b]Permission[i]"I—I couldn't stop myself..."
And before the words left his lips he heard how hollow andobvious was the lie. [/B]
ROTS Novel page 75:
"No sense in taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easily than a new apprentice."
Page 78 (after Obi-Wan is knocked out):
"He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the wieght of his years dropped away."
Page 79:
"And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread."
^ So as we can see even after Dooku stops holding back, even after Obi-Wan is out of the fight and Dooku once more re-energizes himself with the Force.. Even then Anakin was still holding back!
And he was still driving Dooku back, still battering his defenses down!
So whether he was going for the "kill" or not is becoming more irrelevant as we get into this discussion because the fact is his Jedi restraint was always seriously holding him back anyway.
Add that to the fact that when he did defeat Dooku he didn't Kill him at first. He was goaded into that by Palpatine and did so after seriously hesitating, and felt the guilt of doing so almost immediately.
Originally posted by Zett
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeCuEx-JYP0
2:20... If he's not going to kill here....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqLj5wgkmRU
1.20... If Dooku's not going to kill here....
Hehehe see what I did there 😛
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No, no there is not try. Do or do not.
Hahaha, I like You even more for that 😄 But...
You can't win Darth.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I DO prove you wrong.
No, You don't!
This quote, from page 79 - Anakin was holding himself back, not before killing Dooku, but before letting himself to use an anger.
And I agree with that.
Anyway, I said "I'll try", coz - as I posted - a few arguments from the book, aren't an arguments for me.
In my opinion, a huge part of this fight is opposite to the film. For me, this fight was short, Dooku fights thme both at once (if you understand what I mean), and he wants Anakin angry (not like in the book). So, quotes from page 75, and 78, means nothing to me.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqLj5wgkmRU
1.20... If Dooku's not going to kill here....Hehehe see what I did there 😛
This one is great 🙂
Dooku always hated Anakin, I think. Beside that, there was no Sidious. So he can tell his master, that it was a misadventure(?).
Anyway, I don't change my mind - just as You. We see canon with diffrent ways, so it's a pointless, right?
I can only hope, that I've changed your mind about Anakin (he really was going to kill Dooku almost all the time).
Ah one more thing:
Dooku catched Anakin on Naboo, and defeat him in Queen's Palace on Zygerria (Yeah, Anakin it wasn't even a fight, but still, Anakin was on his mercy - as I remeber).
Originally posted by ZettThis quote, from page 79 - Anakin was holding himself back, not before killing Dooku, but before letting himself to use an anger.
And I agree with that.
Point was it's only in the novel we get this idea that Sidious told Dooku not to kill Anakin. But it's also the novel that points out Anakin was still holding back on his power even after Dooku has decided to go for the kill.
Originally posted by Zett
This one is great 🙂Dooku always hated Anakin, I think. Beside that, there was no Sidious. So he can tell his master, that it was a misadventure(?).
Right so that fight shows them fighting each other with no reason for either one to hold back. In fact we flat out saw Dooku going for the kill. And yet even then near the beginning of the CW he failed to kill Anakin. And Anakin was stalemating him in Sabers in that fight and managed to tank Dooku's force attacks (just barely).
But from then on Anakin only got more and more powerful through the CW. Which is why I really don't see the ROTS Anakin vs Dooku fight ending any other way, whether or not Sidious was there and whether or not Obi-Wan was there.