Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Unless he's actually sparred Sparred Sidious his thoughts really don't mean anything, because they're just made up thoughts which have been manipulated by Sidious.
They're only thoughts?
So you're saying Dooku could beat Sidious in a lightsaber duel and he knew it?
I'd like to see a quote of that, if it exists. 🙂
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
LOL So your argument is that Yoda's opinion of sword fighting abilities in people he's worked with, taught, watched for years and fought/sparred with is Fallible....
Originally posted by Rookwood
Yoda considers Prime Mace to be below Dooku - the same Dooku who was killed by Zonakin - and the same Mace who was able to defeat Sidious.Going by Yoda's logic, then Anakin should be able to defeat Sidious, too.
Mhm. I'd say it's Fallible - unless Anakin is capable of defeating Sidious, too. 🙂
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But Dooku's fears are fact???!!
* Fear of Anakin killing/replacing him. Check
* Fear of Sidious being able to defeat Yoda Check
* Fear of the Sith taking over the Republic Check
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Hahaha Youg argument suck so bad!I actually do think Sidious would beat Dooku in Sabers but your argument to prove it jusb sucs!
Keep in mind, you are mentally-slow. 😆 Just reminding.
That's why I explain my argument mostly in bite-sized pieces - so even you can grasp them without too much trouble, as long as you re-read slowly.
Don't worry, I'm trying to dumb it down for you. 😉
I'll explain it simply - so you're not confused. 😎
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And the whole premise on which you've started this debate is flawed. You claim Dooku and Yoda were equal in AOTC. FALSP! The novel and script both make it clear Yoda was beating Dooku in Sabers. That's the reason Dooku was the one who ran.
Hmm? I never said they were equal. Go back and read carefully - I said that Yoda could not pacify Dooku in the duel easily, in any kind of way.
The Republic was at stake; war loomed on the horizon that could claim billions of innocent lives, and Yoda was face to face with (at the time) the main cog and General of that driving force.
If Yoda (as Mace pointed out of himself in Shatterpoint) could have killed or at least injured Dooku and captured him, the war could have been prevented.
But Dooku was too powerful and skilled for Yoda to even pacify through the simple act of a simple cut to the leg, that would have been incapacitating - but non-life threatening, and would not have even caused amputation.
Logic and common sense, dictates he couldn't defeat him within those 37 seconds they fought.
Yoda could not pacify the Count if he wanted to and so Dooku fought him off and escaped to avoid the reinforcements that were on their way.
It would take a very difficult fight for (Rusty) Yoda at that time, to defeat Count Dooku either through pacification (severing of a limb/TK) or death.
The lives of countless innocent women, children and babies, stacked against this decision, are partially testament to this fact.
Whereas for Zonakin, against a more experienced Dooku, it was also a difficult fight - with Anakin struggling not to give in to the Dark side and kill Dooku (in the middle of the fight) but he still managed to out-technique Dooku and pacify him whereas an earlier version of Yoda could not.
Anakin was later able to do what an earlier version of Yoda was not capable of - and to put things in perspective - and you can actually go watch the fights and see this for yourself - Both of their fights with Dooku lasted 37 seconds.
YouTube video
4:00 to 4:37
YouTube video
1:55 to 2:32
(AotC) Yoda fought Dooku for 37 seconds - and could not even lay a simple cut on him, that would (harmlessly) incapacitate him like it did with Obi-wan.
When Anakin had his 37 second duel with Dooku, he managed to avoid directly killing the Count at first, and instead simply out-techniqued him and surgically removed his hands.
So, they both have a 1-on-1 duel with the Count - all Yoda needs to do, is put a simple cut on Dooku's leg ala Dooku-Kenobi - and billions of lives are literally spared.
Yoda can't do it in that amount of time. Reinforcements of Clones are on the way, and Dooku makes his departure.
Anakin later has his 1-on-1 exclusive duel with the Count - with literally the same amount of time it took Yoda to be fended off - Anakin out-techniques the Count.
So literally, with all the mathematical-trimmings - who is better? Anakin.
And it is that later version of Anakin, which could handle the earlier version of Yoda, in a lightsaber duel.
Saavy? 😉
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yoda considers Dooku and Mace may be on par with each other.That doesn't contradict Mace beating Sidious, as Mace's Vapaad is the perfect form to battle Sidious.
Yes, because Sidious uses the Dark side.
How can Mace not be above Dooku instead of on par, when Dooku uses the Dark side as well?
Yoda's judgement there, is clearly flawed.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also how do you know ROTS Anakin couldn't match or beat Sidious in Sabers?? And especially with Zonakin chances are he probably would beat Sidious in a Saber match.
Hmm - you make an interesting argument.
If Zonakin can beat Sidious in lightsabers, then I'm sure he can beat an earlier, rusty version of Yoda in lightsabers, too. 🙂
Especially when in the same 37 seconds, it takes Yoda to stalemate with Dooku - Anakin defeats him via simple incapacitation.
Anakin wins.
Originally posted by Pwned
Rook, your post is overlooking that Dooku ran from Yoda and the LAAT Gunship full of Clones on the way.
Fixed.
And, your post is overlooking something.
Originally posted by Pwned
Yoda clearly had the upper hand in the fight, and if given more time, likely would have been able to defeat Dooku.Having 37 seconds to fight a guy who was the equal of Mace (Before Vapaad) is not that long. That would take at least 2 minutes.
RookWood - Don't forget the novel's description of the fight and the fact that Dooku had run out of Force reserves due to (foolishly) toying with Anakin and Obi-Wan. This occurred before the duo dropped their ruse and dueled with their mastered forms (of which Dooku was unaware of). The novel describes all of this very clearly. One cannot go on the movies alone in this forum as EU material, novels, scripts, etc... play into the equations.
"Zonakin" is not winning. The only advantage he has over Yoda is physical strength, and it's not enough to affect Yoda as much as it did Dooku, since Yoda is physically stronger than Dooku. Also, Unlike Dooku, Yoda is faster than Anakin, and is much more acrobatic. His small size is not something Anakin is use to dealing with, whereas Yoda is use to fighting bigger opponents, so the size difference would be an advantage in Yoda's favor. Not to mention Yoda is the most skilled lightsaber duelist of his time, and has managed to outduel (or disarm according to the ROTS script) someone who is superior and considerably faster than Anakin. Yoda is Anakin's superior in every way except physical strength.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66👆
"Zonakin" is not winning. The only advantage he has over Yoda is physical strength, and it's not enough to affect Yoda as much as it did Dooku, since Yoda is physically stronger than Dooku. Also, Unlike Dooku, Yoda is faster than Anakin, and is much more acrobatic. His small size is not something Anakin is use to dealing with, whereas Yoda is use to fighting bigger opponents, so the size difference would be an advantage in Yoda's favor. Not to mention Yoda is the most skilled lightsaber duelist of his time, and has managed to outduel (or disarm according to the ROTS script) someone who is superior and considerably faster than Anakin. Yoda is Anakin's superior in every way except physical strength.
Originally posted by Rookwood
They're only thoughts?So you're saying Dooku could beat Sidious in a lightsaber duel and he knew it?
I'd like to see a quote of that, if it exists. 🙂
Mhm. I'd say it's Fallible - unless Anakin is capable of defeating Sidious, too. 🙂
* Fear of Anakin killing/replacing him. Check
* Fear of Sidious being able to defeat Yoda Check
* Fear of the Sith taking over the Republic Check
Keep in mind, you are mentally-slow. 😆 Just reminding.
That's why I explain my argument mostly in bite-sized pieces - so even you can grasp them without too much trouble, as long as you re-read slowly.
Don't worry, I'm trying to dumb it down for you. 😉
I'll explain it simply - so you're not confused. 😎
Hmm? I never said they were equal. Go back and read carefully - I said that Yoda could not pacify Dooku in the duel easily, in any kind of way.
The Republic was at stake; war loomed on the horizon that could claim billions of innocent lives, and Yoda was face to face with (at the time) the main cog and General of that driving force.
If Yoda (as Mace pointed out of himself in Shatterpoint) could have killed or at least injured Dooku and captured him, the war could have been prevented.
But Dooku was too powerful and skilled for Yoda to even pacify through the simple act of a simple cut to the leg, that would have been incapacitating - but non-life threatening, and would not have even caused amputation.Logic and common sense, dictates he couldn't defeat him within those 37 seconds they fought.
Yoda could not pacify the Count if he wanted to and so Dooku fought him off and escaped to avoid the reinforcements that were on their way.
It would take a very difficult fight for (Rusty) Yoda at that time, to defeat Count Dooku either through pacification (severing of a limb/TK) or death.
The lives of countless innocent women, children and babies, stacked against this decision, are partially testament to this fact.
Whereas for Zonakin, against a more experienced Dooku, it was also a difficult fight - with Anakin struggling not to give in to the Dark side and kill Dooku (in the middle of the fight) but he still managed to out-technique Dooku and pacify him whereas an earlier version of Yoda could not.
Anakin was later able to do what an earlier version of Yoda was not capable of - and to put things in perspective - and you can actually go watch the fights and see this for yourself - [B]Both of their fights with Dooku lasted 37 seconds.
YouTube video
4:00 to 4:37YouTube video
1:55 to 2:32(AotC) Yoda fought Dooku for 37 seconds - and could not even lay a simple cut on him, that would (harmlessly) incapacitate him like it did with Obi-wan.
When Anakin had his 37 second duel with Dooku, he managed to avoid directly killing the Count at first, and instead simply out-techniqued him and surgically removed his hands.
So, they both have a 1-on-1 duel with the Count - all Yoda needs to do, is put a simple cut on Dooku's leg ala Dooku-Kenobi - and billions of lives are literally spared.
Yoda can't do it in that amount of time. Reinforcements of Clones are on the way, and Dooku makes his departure.
Anakin later has his 1-on-1 exclusive duel with the Count - with literally the same amount of time it took Yoda to be fended off - Anakin out-techniques the Count.
So literally, with all the mathematical-trimmings - who is better? Anakin.
And it is that later version of Anakin, which could handle the earlier version of Yoda, in a lightsaber duel.
Saavy? 😉
Yes, because Sidious uses the Dark side.
How can Mace not be above Dooku instead of on par, when Dooku uses the Dark side as well?
Yoda's judgement there, is clearly flawed.
Hmm - you make an interesting argument.
If Zonakin can beat Sidious in lightsabers, then I'm sure he can beat an earlier, rusty version of Yoda in lightsabers, too. 🙂
Especially when in the same 37 seconds, it takes Yoda to stalemate with Dooku - Anakin defeats him via simple incapacitation.
Anakin wins. [/B]
Lol wut...Anakin defeats a Dooku who's already tired from fighting both him and Kenobi simultaneously. He overextended himself.
Originally posted by RookwoodHmm? I never said they were equal. Go back and read carefully - I said that Yoda could not pacify Dooku in the duel easily, in any kind of way.
I don't care for your over sarcastic tone in the rest of your post, but I'll address this part.
I never said Yoda was seriously holding back because he loved Count Dooku too much. Other people have claimed this but not me.
Count Dooku did hold his own in that duel, no doubt. But Yoda would have won as he's more powerful and has greater force reserves. He just needed more time to defeat a powerhouse like Count Dooku.
But as many people have pointed out here, it has no bearing on an AOTC Yoda vs ROTS Anakin fight.
First of all someone beating someone quicker does not necessarily make them superior, or Count Dooku would be far far more powerful than Anakin based on how long it takes each of them to defeat Obi-Wan.
Or CW Maul would be far far more powerful than CW Obi-Wan based on how quickly and easily he stomped Opress in comparison to Obi-Wan. But clearly that also isn't the case.
Every character has different strengths and weaknesses which come into play in these things.
Secondly like others have pointed out to you, the reason ROTS Anakin defeated Count Dooku so quickly in their one one one as compared to Yoda, was because Count Dooku had drained a lot his Force reserves by the time it came to his final one on one with Anakin.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't care for your over sarcastic tone in the rest of your post, but I'll address this part.I never said Yoda was seriously holding back because he loved Count Dooku too much. Other people have claimed this but not me.
Count Dooku did hold his own in that duel, no doubt. But Yoda would have won as he's more powerful and has greater force reserves. He just needed more time to defeat a powerhouse like Count Dooku.
But as many people have pointed out here, it has no bearing on an AOTC Yoda vs ROTS Anakin fight.
First of all someone beating someone quicker does not necessarily make them superior, or Count Dooku would be far far more powerful than Anakin based on how long it takes each of them to defeat Obi-Wan.
Or CW Maul would be far far more powerful than CW Obi-Wan based on how quickly and easily he stomped Opress in comparison to Obi-Wan. But clearly that also isn't the case.
Every character has different strengths and weaknesses which come into play in these things.
Secondly like others have pointed out to you, the reason ROTS Anakin defeated Count Dooku so quickly in their one one one as compared to Yoda, was because Count Dooku had drained a lot his Force reserves by the time it came to his final one on one with Anakin.
Well stated DP.
Anakin wins
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yoda is physically stronger than Dooku.
A three foot tall midget is stronger than a 6'5 guy? Really?
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
whereas Yoda is use to fighting bigger opponents, so the size difference would be an advantage in Yoda's favor.
Actually, considering AotC Yoda couldn't even lay a single cut on Dooku, I'd say Yoda's imagined-advantage here is moot.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not to mention Yoda is the most skilled lightsaber duelist of his time, and has managed to outduel (or disarm according to the ROTS script) someone who is superior and considerably faster than Anakin.
Right - except we're not talking about RotS Yoda here, we're talking about AotC (Aka "Rusty" Yoda/Non-battle-hardened Yoda).
AotC Yoda couldn't even manage to lay a cut on AotC Dooku - so he'd likely get defeated or stalemated by RotS Sidious in lightsabers.
- And - get killed by Dooku's superior, Zonakin.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Lol wut...Anakin defeats a Dooku who's already tired from fighting both him and Kenobi simultaneously. He overextended himself.
Lol - and Yoda stalemates with a Dooku who's already expended energy fighting Anakin and Obi-wan - and used up considerable Force energy hurling Lightning and tearing off pieces of walls and the ceiling to throw at Yoda beforehand.
Does the fact that Yoda was only able to stalemate with him, make Yoda even pathetic in retrospect?
Dooku had a good warm-up in both fights, and didn't have much to worry about from Kenobi and Anakin at the same time (Because if the opposite of this were true - they would have stomped him) seeing as how they had to coordinate their attacks around each other, which evidently didn't work very well.
It was only when Anakin was alone with Dooku, and focused, did Dooku have major problems.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I don't care for your over sarcastic tone in the rest of your post, but I'll address this part.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I never said Yoda was seriously holding back because he loved Count Dooku too much. Other people have claimed this but not me.
I know, but I wanted to make sure that was properly addressed and people realize how that theory makes absolutely no sense for obvious reasons.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Count Dooku did hold his own in that duel, no doubt. But Yoda would have won as he's more powerful and has greater force reserves. He just needed more time to defeat a powerhouse like Count Dooku.
Very true.
I'm sure his later RotS self could have defeated him much quicker.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But as many people have pointed out here, it has no bearing on an AOTC Yoda vs ROTS Anakin fight.
Oh, it does.
Dooku had a good warm-up before his 1-on-1 fight with Yoda in AotC, and he had a good warm-up before his 1-on-1 fight with Anakin in RotS.
But it was shown that it would take a rusty AotC Yoda much longer to even incapacitate Dooku than RotS Anakin.
All Yoda had to do is inflict a small cut with his lightsaber ala Dooku-Kenobi, (which should be easy for him, considering it's a less difficult attack to produce, and he's small and agile enough to deliver it) but he couldn't get past Dooku's defenses quickly enough - but Anakin could.
Not only was Anakin fast enough to get past Dooku's defenses - he was able to produce a slightly more complex amputation, which of course takes more timing and focus.
Dooku spent a lot of Force energy in AotC (arguably more than in RotS) when he was firing off streams of Force lightning and throws sections of the wall and ceiling at Yoda, and before that already having a focused-duel with Anakin - having drained energy, in the same time it took Anakin to defeat Dooku, Yoda was only able to stalemate with him.
So, yes, it very much so has a lot of bearing - RotS Zonakin has an edge over Yoda in lightsabers - and with this being a pure saber duel, Anakin wins.
That's what the math points to, unless you want to play pretend.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
First of all someone beating someone quicker does not necessarily make them superior, or Count Dooku would be far far more powerful than Anakin based on how long it takes each of them to defeat Obi-Wan.
That's a bullshit argument, and I think you likely already know that.
"Anakin" is a different Persona than "Vader" - each being a different individual mentally - down to how they fight and utilise the Force in combat.
Dooku could likely defeat Pre-suit Vader - whereas the actual Peak Anakin Skywalker (Zonakin) trashed him, instead.
- Beating someone quicker does make them more superior than the other person - especially considering that Count Dooku; The Master of Makashi - the elegant consummate sword-style, is a perfect example for quantification.
All Yoda needed to do, was inflict a small, quick cut - and given his physical attributes, as have been stated before, it would have been easy for him to do - but he couldn't get past the Count's defenses quick enough.
- Anakin could, and did - and not only that - executed a more complex amputation that took more time and focus.
Anakin succeeded, where a rusty version of Yoda failed.
And accordingly it is that version of Anakin, that could defeat that version of Yoda, in strictly a saber duel.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Or CW Maul would be far far more powerful than CW Obi-Wan based on how quickly and easily he stomped Opress in comparison to Obi-Wan. But clearly that also isn't the case.
That CGI travesty is nonsensical and was created for children.
I stopped watching it after the episode where Dooku was trapped like a mouse by mere Pirates.
In fact, I feel literally embarrassed for anyone who does watch it, and takes it into consideration.
That show, is sludge.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Every character has different strengths and weaknesses which come into play in these things.
Uh huh. Then perhaps you need to take these things into account more accurately in the future.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Secondly like others have pointed out to you, the reason ROTS Anakin defeated Count Dooku so quickly in their one one one as compared to Yoda, was because Count Dooku had drained a lot his Force reserves by the time it came to his final one on one with Anakin.
Right - and Dooku didn't fire off streams of Lightning at Obi-wan and later Yoda - along with sections of the wall and ceiling just before his 1-on-1 with Yoda in AotC.
Dooku used and drained a lot more Force energy there - and Yoda still couldn't defeat him.
Re: Anakin wins
Originally posted by RookwoodThat CGI travesty is nonsensical and was created for children.
I stopped watching it after the episode where Dooku was trapped like a mouse by mere Pirates.
In fact, I feel literally embarrassed for anyone who does watch it, and takes it into consideration.
That show, is sludge.
This is not an argument. This is you avoiding an argument by stating "Oh I don't like that completely Canon show created and executive produced by Lucas himself, so I'll just ignore it."
Star Wars was always aimed primarily at 12 year olds. It just so happened that adults loved it as well.
And your argument that it's aimed at kids becomes even more laughable when your using the CW Mini cartoon to prove your main points.
I know, but I wanted to make sure that was properly addressed and people realize how that theory makes absolutely no sense for obvious reasons.
Also, CW actually resurected this forum and gave lots of topics to discuss new and old things.
Why do people keep saying Dooku STALEMATED Yoda.. He did no such thing.. He tucked tail and ran away from Yoda. Yoda wasn't trying to kill his former apprentice he was trying to capture him, which means, he was fighting differently than he might had he been bloodlusted. Dooku survived being captured for a period of time is about all that could be said.