Oh I'm sure current CW Obi-Wan is very close to ROTS Obi-Wan.
Anakin on the other hand should be getting stronger all the time. And if you look at his fights with Count Dooku there's clearly a difference between CW Movie Anakin and Current CW Anakin and ROTS Anakin.
Obi-Wan's fight against Maul and Opress was very impressive. I'd say he performed almost as well against that duo as Count Dooku did against Ventress and Opress (a weaker duo).
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Dooku is, after all, the master of Makashi, is he not?
And Kenobi is the master of Soresu. Plus he can combine that with some impressive Ataru and Jar Kai skills.
Mace Windu was actually of the opinion that Obi-Wan was on par with him as a swordsman.
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Soresu doesn't really have any advantage over Makashi such as Djem So or Vaapad.
And nor does Makashi have any special advantage over Soresu. Plus I think your putting too much importance on Forms.
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
So I still see how Dooku isn't atleast one tier above Maul/Dooku in sabers...
Dooku maybe better. But I doubt he's an entire tier above Obi-Wan in Sabers considering Obi-Wan's recent Saber feats.
Soresu doesn't really have any advantage over Makashi such as Djem So or Vaapad.So I still see how Dooku isn't atleast one tier above Maul/Dooku in sabers...
Also, I will point out that Juyo is technically Djem So with use of emotions.
Here is prove:
"His combat style ranged from the aggressive Jedi style Shien to the more advanced form of Djem So with occasional flashes of rage that pushed the combat beyond offensive barrage to outright, fury-fueled Juyo. The apprentice danced with feet and blade, admiring the techniques and tricks of his newest opponent- whom he naturally recognized as the long-dead Clone Wars hero Anakin Skywalker-and prolonging the duel to see where it might lead"
So by your unsupported logic Maul has advantage over Dooku in sabers.
Originally posted by Arhael
Prove it.
Makashi is the form for lightsaber to lightsaber combat. It's use is to penetrate defenses, even if this defense is hardly penetrable.
Originally posted by Arhael
So by your unsupported logic Maul has advantage over Dooku in sabers.
So you're saying it only depends on the form? Clearly I said Djem So had some certain advantages, not Maul.
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Makashi is the form for lightsaber to lightsaber combat. It's use is to penetrate defenses, even if this defense is hardly penetrable.
And Djem So and Juyo are not used to penetrate defenses??
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
So you're saying it only depends on the form? Clearly I said Djem So had some certain advantages, not Maul.
You seem to put emphasis on how important forms are when it suits your argument, and discard those rules when it doesn't.
Forms help, but so do circumstances that arise as the fight goes on. It is only a matter of either combatant utilizing the advantage of their form before the other does. Maul can use power attacks (which seems to be Makashi's weakness) or Dooku can use his finesse and mastery of fencing to pinpoint a moment to strike (which Maul is not used to fighting opponents who are as good at finding faults in their opponents as Dooku has been proven to be)
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And Djem So and Juyo are not used to penetrate defenses??
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You seem to put emphasis on how important forms are when it suits your argument, and discard those rules when it doesn't.
no. advantage doesn't mean an automatic win, I never said that.
Originally posted by Jedi Momno. advantage doesn't mean an automatic win, I never said that.
You clearly implied Dooku wins because of his form:
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Dooku is, after all, the master of Makashi, is he not?Soresu doesn't really have any advantage over Makashi such as Djem So or Vaapad.
So I still see how Dooku isn't atleast one tier above Maul/Dooku in sabers...
Which doesn't even make sense because Maul uses Juyo.
Makashi is the form for lightsaber to lightsaber combat. It's use is to penetrate defenses, even if this defense is hardly penetrable.
Just say that you "believe" that Dooku is more skilled than both Kenobi and Dooku instead of brining up unconfirmed nonsence about styles.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You clearly implied Dooku wins because of his form
I pointed out that he's the master of Makashi. That has to say something atleast.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
[B]Which doesn't even make sense because Maul uses Juyo.
Not sure what you mean. If you mean I said Djem So has an advantage over Makashi, and Maul uses Juyo which includes some Djem So...
Are you comparing Maul to Anakin in sabers?
Originally posted by Arhael
That's not a prove. And Djem So and Juyo have exactly the same purpose - to penetrate defenses,
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Not to the same extent.
Originally posted by Arhael
Just say that you "believe" that Dooku is more skilled than both Kenobi and Dooku instead of brining up unconfirmed nonsence about styles.
Okay. I believe Dooku is quite a bit more skilled than Kenobi and definitely Maul with a saber and would win with only medium difficulty against both.
Better?
Okay. I believe Dooku is quite a bit more skilled than Kenobi and definitely Maul with a saber and would win with only medium difficulty against both.Better?
Anakin
In very first CW movie Dooku couldn't outskill Anakin in sabers and Force handled him instead. In the middle of CW Dooku again couldn't outskilled Anakin, got disarmed due to kick but again Force handled him.
Ventress.
When she and Opress attacked Dooku, he landed two kicks to her, it shows he is good at kicks but kicking is not a demonstration of superior fencing. Then she stalemated him until Opress choked them. Then they continued fighting. Again Dooku couldn't outskill her in saber fight but handled her with the Force.
As you see Dooku consitently fails to outskill his opponents with lightsaber and relies on Force attacks to defeat them instead. In fact he did not outskill anyone in sabers after AotC.
In comparison, when Kenobi fought Ventress alone, when he became serious, he disarmed her of one lightsaber and she ran away.
Same for Anakin, when he engaged her alone, he disarmed her of one lightsaber to which she responeded with Force blast.
Dooku fighting Anakin and Kenobi in RotS, also, does not prove that he is above in fencing of either of them. The same thing did Ventress on more than one occasion and in last fight she landed Kenobi such kick that it took him a while to recover.
And Opress engaged both Anakin and
Kenobi. He threw them across a corridor and then kept driving them back with lightsaber. Anakin and Kenobi always hold back, when they fight in a team.
Finally, Opress disarmed Dooku, Kenobi and then Ventress. Only Maul countered Opress' strength. And then Kenobi overwhelmed both Opress and Maul without using Force attacks at all unlike Dooku. And in RotS again Dooku couldn't outskill Anakin and lost cos of grappling technique, while Kenobi stalemated Anakin much longer, countered grappling, tanked two powerful kicks and ultimately defeated Anakin.
Your believe stays believe. In practice Dooku can Force handle any of the mentioned characters but in pure sabers he showed himself to be only slightly above Ventress.
All of that is great. But for example, just because he didn't disarm Ventress does it mean he can't? So by this logic Yoda can't disarm Dooku because he didn't disarm him in AotC.
Three times Dooku engaged Anakin in CW and every time Dooku was Force handling him in order to win.
Completely failed against Opress and saved situation by electrocuting him.
Managed to land two kicks past Ventress guard, which is perhaps his only superiority over her. And, when they fought without Opress, ones again he used TK to gain victory.
In RotS Dooku Force handled Kenobi without giving him much chance to attack.
Every single time Dooku relies on Force to gain advantage over others. Only blind will not see that it is Dooku's Force mastery that trully stands out, not his pure fencing.
And yes, my opinion is that Yoda can't disarm Dooku. Because Yoda is not his superior in sabers either. Yoda had two chances: short fight in film, where they were perfectly even and longer fight in EU. Yoda's best bet is to tire Dooku up as he has much more Force reserves but such victory would not be demonstration of superior fencing.
Good. So IF going by the logic that Dooku is Yodas equal in sabers, then he would dominate the likes of Ventress, Maul and even Kenobi (unless you think that Ventress is Yoda's superior, which is quite ridiculous IMO)
Going toe-to-toe with Yoda in AotC is more than Kenobi have ever shown. This feat should put him above Kenobi and definitely Maul.
Originally posted by Arhael
In fact he did not outskill anyone in sabers after AotC.[/B]
Sora Bulq comes to mind right off the bat... And the fact that he uses the Force to disable most opponents doesn't mean that he doesn'y outskill them in sabers, it simply means that is the way he prefers to subdue his adversaries.
Originally posted by Arhael
Ventress.
When she and Opress attacked Dooku, he landed two kicks to her, it shows he is good at kicks but kicking is not a demonstration of superior fencing.
Kicks, punches, physical hits are a part of fencing in SW Imho. It's how Mace beat Sidious. How Kenobi beat Opress. How Kenobi was handling Maul. How Maul beat TPM Obi-Wan. Even when Maul beat Qui-Gon he hit him first.
It's too big a part of their fencing fights to just seperate as something else. End of the day if Dooku's kicking Anakin/ Ventress why are they just not chopping his leg off before the kick intercepts them? It's because he's simply outfighting them.
Originally posted by Arhael
Then she stalemated him until Opress choked them. Then they continued fighting. Again Dooku couldn't outskill her in saber fight but handled her with the Force..
The stalemate you talk about is when he was simultaneously shooting Opress.
And in the one on one fight Dooku was driving Ventress back the whole time. So it seems pretty clear he was overpowering her in Sabers. Just because he wanted to quickly end it with the Force doesn't really change that Arhael.
Otherwise if he finished it with Sabers then someone could argue that Dooku only finished her in Sabers because he couldn't have finished her with the Force!
Originally posted by Arhael
And yes, my opinion is that Yoda can't disarm Dooku. Because Yoda is not his superior in sabers either. Yoda had two chances: short fight in film, where they were perfectly even and longer fight in EU. Yoda's best bet is to tire Dooku up as he has much more Force reserves but such victory would not be demonstration of superior fencing.
You would be wrong. In the EU Dooku struck Yoda, and then promptly shit himself sensing how powerful DS Yoda would be.