The only time Dooku put up a "damn good" fight was on Vjun, and that was with a boost in power and an element of surprise. Their saber duel on Geonosis only lasted a little over 30 seconds before Dooku felt the need to flee. There is also evidents that Yoda wasn't putting his all in that fight, such as greatly restraining himself in their force duel.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The only time Dooku put up a "damn good" fight was on Vjun, and that was with a boost in power and an element of surprise. Their saber duel on Geonosis only lasted a little over 30 seconds before Dooku felt the need to flee.
Most people would try to flee from Yoda, would they not? Again doesn't say Dooku's bad, only how good Yoda is...
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
There is also evidents that Yoda wasn't putting his all in that fight, such as greatly restraining himself in their force duel.
Like what?
Kicks, punches, physical hits are a part of fencing in SW Imho. It's how Mace beat Sidious. How Kenobi beat Opress. How Kenobi was handling Maul. How Maul beat TPM Obi-Wan. Even when Maul beat Qui-Gon he hit him first.It's too big a part of their fencing fights to just seperate as something else. End of the day if Dooku's kicking Anakin/ Ventress why are they just not chopping his leg off before the kick intercepts them? It's because he's simply outfighting them.
I can say the same about Force attacks. "It's too big a part of their fencing fights to just seperate as something else".
Despite Kenobi's superior defense skills Dooku completely stomped him with Force attacks. Same way despite Opress' overwhelming offensive power Maul completly stomped him with a wrist lock.
As you said it plays big part in fights. Everyone is good at fencing but very few of them are good at unarmed combat.
Sidious knew all Forms, yet, he never demonstrated any unarmed techniques, he was pure fencer as many other characters.
Kenobi never demonstrated kicks prior to fight with Opress and Maul, it wasn't part of his style and it's not used in regular fencing, no pure saber technique would be so game breaking in that situation. That's why I count it as a separate skill because in general Jedi and Sith don't learn unarmed combat and it can give huge advantage over other skilled opponents just like Force attacks.
Even in real life Kendo, fencing and many other arts teach only sword techniques.
Otherwise if he finished it with Sabers then someone could argue that Dooku only finished her in Sabers because he couldn't have finished her with the Force!
Dooku Force pushed Ventress ones and immediatly followed with two strikes. And while out of balance, she still blocked them and then he used TK again. He trained her personally. I would expect his student to be nearly as good as him, it makes sense why he used TK.
My point stands, Dooku never demonstrared in CW that he is firmly above other main characters in fencing.
People "believe" but they can't prove it.
In the EU Dooku struck Yoda, and then promptly shit himself sensing how powerful DS Yoda would be.
I don't see how some believe that Yoda and Dooku are near equals in lightsaber combat. That is so far from truth.
Anakin disarmed Dooku in CW and Kenobi in RotS with a kick. Windu and Siduous were dead even, yet, Windu won him with a kick. Kenobi's kicks were key factor in outskilling Maul and Opress. Can Yoda kick? No.
Anakin defeated Dooku with grappling technique. Nearly killed Kenobi with grappling. Everyone was struggling with Opress, yet, Maul stomped him with a wrist twist. Can Yoda grapple? No.
Anakin with strong attacks was exhausting Dooku in a matter of seconds. Opress was simultaniously driving back both Anakin and Kenobi and disarmed Dooku, Kenobi and Ventress. Can Yoda give strong attacks? No.
Moreover, he needs to jump in order to attack, his hands are short, his lightsaber is short as well. How is he supposed to disarm his opponents, while unbalanced in air and has so short attack reach???
He doesn't have offensive power to outskill his opponents because of his numerous limitations. His best tactic is to tire up his opponent in a prolonged fight or Force handle. And that's why Dooku runs away every time, neither can win but Dooku's Force reserves are much smaller.
Originally posted by Arhael
I can say the same about Force attacks. "It's too big a part of their fencing fights to just seperate as something else".
Tbh I think when a Sith hits a Jedi off guard with a Force Push, then he is just outfighting him.
In ROTS Obi-Wan and Anakin are sword fighting, then Obi-Wan goes to Force Push Anakin, but he intercepts it. Why? Because Obi-Wan wasn't outfighting Anakin. Their skill and combat abilities were pretty dead even. So he wasn't going to catch him off guard like that.
Originally posted by Arhael
Even in real life Kendo, fencing and many other arts teach only sword techniques.
You see this is where you have to be careful when comparing real life combat to Jedi/Sith combat.
In real life kicks are only used in fencing to distance yourself from an opponent. Whilst in SW the combatants have force enhanced kicks and punches, which are clearly used to cause damage and win the fencing match. So it becomes and intregal part of the fencing match.
As for the force attacks, I've heard Niman strongly encourages force attacks with the fencing. So the existence of other attack forms are definitely taken into account with the forms. End of the day the styles are designed for Force users.
I remember in TFU Starkiller tells Proxy how Ataru really doesn't work without the Force, despite Proxy having super speed, strength and agility.
Originally posted by Arhael
Anakin was driving Dooku back even in AotC, for example. Anakin was driving back Dooku and Kenobi, it doesn't mean that he was outskilling them.
True, but it's in their style to give ground against a stronger opponent. I don't ever remember Ventress voluntarily giving ground in a fight in which she was holding her own, or winning.
Originally posted by Arhael
My point stands, Dooku never demonstrared in CW that he is firmly above other main characters in fencing.
People "believe" but they can't prove it.
If your talking about pure fencing skill, and ignore strength and speed, then yes I can see your point. It would be hard to prove superior pure fencing skill in that regard. (Which is why we usually turn to source books or other statements in that regard.)
However including all close combat abilities, I certainly do think there is plenty of evidence that Dooku is a fair bit superior to Ventress in a fencing match. That's why:
1)He was able to hold his own against Ventress and 2 nightsisters despite being blind.
2)Ventress couldn't do anything to Dooku even with Opress helping her, even when Dooku was unarmed.
3)I believe it was Dooku driving Ventress back in their one on one and not the other way around.
I am think Dooku has a chance in just lightsabers. You have to consider their styles. Yoda (master of Ataru) is not a dueling specialist in the same way that Dooku (master of Makashi) is, and in a game of pure technique, Dooku should emerge the winner. So in a game purely of skill, Dooku should be the winner. Another avenue of success for Dooku also lies in Yoda's style - the most energetic use of movement out of all the styles, especially the way Yoda uses it, in comparison to Dooku's Makashi and its conservation of energy, so another route to victory lies in waiting for Yoda to gas.
Yoda's only real chance of winning is being able to overwhelm Dooku physically before he gasses, but in AotC at least he wasn't able to do this even after Dookue had just defeated two other Jedis. In fact, he didn't get close to doing this, and he looked veyr composed the entire duel.
So really, there is Dooku's two routes to victories to Yoda's one, where Dooku's victory are almost assured if the scenario goes down that way, but where Yoda's victory relies on him being able to overhwlem dooku in way we have never seen him do, in a way tht he wasnt able to in AotC against fatigued Dooku.
As jedis don't really use the force offensively in duels either, Dooku definitely has chance to win all out battle. Dooku's MMA force attacks are also arguably better than Yoda's, in how well he times and transitions them from his lightsaber strikes. None of the other Jedis or Sith really demonstrated the ability to do that quite like Dooku does, so he is arguably best at it.
In fact, Dooku might be best pure fighter from the movies.
So, I go with Dooku for the win in this one.
Source: Expert in martial arts for over 10 years.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The only time Dooku put up a "damn good" fight was on Vjun, and that was with a boost in power and an element of surprise. Their saber duel on Geonosis only lasted a little over 30 seconds before Dooku felt the need to flee.
Beats the one force push it took for Sidious to try fleeing.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
There is also evidents that Yoda wasn't putting his all in that fight, such as greatly restraining himself in their force duel.
Yeah why would Yoda try? I mean there was only a war at stake!
Anakin was going to get thrown out of the Jedi Order for helping Padme instead of stopping Dooku for God's sake and yet people expect us to believe the Grand Master of the Jedi Order didn't even try very hard to stop Dooku.
Tbh I think when a Sith hits a Jedi off guard with a Force Push, then he is just outfighting him.In ROTS Obi-Wan and Anakin are sword fighting, then Obi-Wan goes to Force Push Anakin, but he intercepts it. Why? Because Obi-Wan wasn't outfighting Anakin. Their skill and combat abilities were pretty dead even. So he wasn't going to catch him off guard like that.
You see this is where you have to be careful when comparing real life combat to Jedi/Sith combat.In real life kicks are only used in fencing to distance yourself from an opponent. Whilst in SW the combatants have force enhanced kicks and punches, which are clearly used to cause damage and win the fencing match. So it becomes and intregal part of the fencing match.
True, but it's in their style to give ground against a stronger opponent. I don't ever remember Ventress voluntarily giving ground in a fight in which she was holding her own, or winning.
If your talking about pure fencing skill, and ignore strength and speed, then yes I can see your point. It would be hard to prove superior pure fencing skill in that regard. (Which is why we usually turn to source books or other statements in that regard.)
Yoda did kick Sidious IIRC in RotS.And he ended up disarming him in sabers, despite the fact he can't grapple, give strong attacks or whatever.
I say Yoda is the best duelist in the entire series (ep 1-6)
Also, proving that Sidious is above Dooku, Kenobi or Anakin in pure fencing is another matter. All we know is that he lost to Windu, couldn't win Yoda and much later got his hand chopped off by Luke who at that point could hardly be considered very skilled combatant. Can't wait to see his fight against Maul and Opress.
Originally posted by Arhael
Time to lower Yoda's hype a bit.Anakin disarmed Dooku in CW and Kenobi in RotS with a kick. Windu and Siduous were dead even, yet, Windu won him with a kick. Kenobi's kicks were key factor in outskilling Maul and Opress. Can Yoda kick? No.
Anakin defeated Dooku with grappling technique. Nearly killed Kenobi with grappling. Everyone was struggling with Opress, yet, Maul stomped him with a wrist twist. Can Yoda grapple? No.
Anakin with strong attacks was exhausting Dooku in a matter of seconds. Opress was simultaniously driving back both Anakin and Kenobi and disarmed Dooku, Kenobi and Ventress. Can Yoda give strong attacks? No.
Moreover, he needs to jump in order to attack, his hands are short, his lightsaber is short as well. How is he supposed to disarm his opponents, while unbalanced in air and has so short attack reach???
He doesn't have offensive power to outskill his opponents because of his numerous limitations. His best tactic is to tire up his opponent in a prolonged fight or Force handle. And that's why Dooku runs away every time, neither can win but Dooku's Force reserves are much smaller.
Yes to all of your questions except the grappling one. In a saber lock, Yoda managed to overpower Sidious, who is stronger than Dooku, and then went on to disarm him (according to the script). Yoda outduelled someone who is a considerably superior combatant to Dooku (although, as you said in another post, Sidious was at a disadvantage on the senate rotunda, but considering that Sidious is stronger and a lot faster than Dooku, it still shows that Yoda has it in him to quite handily defeat Dooku).
Also, I don't see how you can say Yoda doesn't have any offensive power to defeat anyone, when we see him throw Sidious several feet with a force push, or when we see him nearly crushing Sidious with a senate pod. We didn't see him do any of that to Dooku, simply because he was restraining himself.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Beats the one force push it took for Sidious to try fleeing.
Not sure why you brought this up? Sidious proved himself to be a very great threat to Yoda in combat (he knocks Yoda unconscious with lightning; he nearly overwhelms Yoda with with senate pods, causing Yoda to lose his balance; he disarms Yoda of his lightsaber with a single blast of lightning etc..).
The point I was trying to make is: just because Dooku lasted a little over 30 seconds without being killed, does not make him Yoda's near equal, especially when Yoda evidently wasn't putting his all into that fight.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah why would Yoda try? I mean there was only a war at stake!
Good question, but I'm not Yoda so I couldn't tell ya. We know Yoda is very arrogant. He did the same to Ventress on Toydaria. Instead of capturing her when he had the chance, he gives her her lightsabers back, and as a consequence, she triggers an explosion, causing an avalanche that could have crushed Yoda and the clones, and then she escaped.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anakin was going to get thrown out of the Jedi Order for helping Padme instead of stopping Dooku for God's sake and yet people expect us to believe the Grand Master of the Jedi Order didn't even try very hard to stop Dooku.
Did Yoda leave his jedi duty in order to save someone he had an attachment to? Nope, he did try to stop Dooku, I'm not saying he didn't. I'm saying he greatly held back on Dooku. Not once did we see Yoda attack Dooku with the force, other than Dooku's own redirected lightning. And it's not like Yoda couldn't, because we see him do it to someone who is considerably more powerful than Dooku. So, no, Yoda was not trying very hard.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Good question, but I'm not Yoda so I couldn't tell ya. We know Yoda is very arrogant. He did the same to Ventress on Toydaria. Instead of capturing her when he had the chance, he gives her her lightsabers back, and as a consequence, she triggers an explosion, causing an avalanche that could have crushed Yoda and the clones, and then she escaped.
Imagine, Yoda destroys Ventress there and then and CW become dull, he beats Dooku there and then and....no Death Star.
Regardless, I always felt that the above-mentioned duels established firmly Yoda’s superiority over said characters, not that they implied the contrary…..
I'm guna try to sum this up:
I understand that we are just talking about a saber duel between Dooku and Yoda. The argument of some has been that since Dooku was a key point in ending the war, that Yoda would try his very best to stop Dooku. However, if that were the case, then Yoda would not have held back during their force contest either. I'm going to assume that if Yoda greatly held back in their force contest, that he would also hold back in their lightsaber duel as well. And to support my claim, I used Yoda's lightsaber duel with Sidious. If Yoda can outduel Sidious, who is stronger and a lot faster than Dooku, in a lightsaber duel, then he can most definitely do the same to Dooku. Even When Dooku's powers were amped by the dark side nexus on Vjun and with an element of surprise, Dooku was still forced to flee from Yoda. So how is it that they are near equals?
I'm not saying Dooku is a weakling or anything. All I'm saying is that there is a considerable gab between him and Yoda.
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
1. Where do you see Yoda holding back on Dooku in the force battle?
If you read my previous posts, you wouldn't be asking this.
Originally posted by Jedi Mom
2. Prove Sidious>Dooku in sabers
Blitzing master swordsman greatly exceeds anything Dooku has done with a blade, especially when one of those masters is at least on par with Kenobi. I can name others as well, but there's really no need to since none of Dooku's saber feats come close to rivaling that.
Yes.. In S66's and Tempest's mind he is believe it or not.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66The point I was trying to make is: just because Dooku lasted a little over 30 seconds without being killed, does not make him Yoda's near equal, especially when Yoda evidently wasn't putting his all into that fight.
I didn't say they're near equals. Yoda's greater force reserves and power in the force would tire Dooku down just like Anakin did.
All I said is that both times they fought, Dooku put up a damn good fight. Temporarily stalemating Yoda is no small feat. There's only a handful in the mythos that could do such a feat.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Good question, but I'm not Yoda so I couldn't tell ya. We know Yoda is very arrogant. He did the same to Ventress on Toydaria. Instead of capturing her when he had the chance, he gives her her lightsabers back, and as a consequence, she triggers an explosion, causing an avalanche that could have crushed Yoda and the clones, and then she escaped.
He wasn't there to fight or capture Ventress. He only grabbed her to stop her killing the King.
Blitzing master swordsman greatly exceeds anything Dooku has done with a blade, especially when one of those masters is at least on par with Kenobi. I can name others as well, but there's really no need to since none of Dooku's saber feats come close to rivaling that.
Opress stomped in sabers Dooku, Kenobi and Ventress. Maul stomped Kenobi and then Opress. Yet, later both brothers got outperformed by Kenobi.
One character easily defeating another is demonstration of good execution of a technique and superior state of mind. But in no way it proves that one character is above other characters that he never even fought. Sidious was more skilled than those Masters anyway.
As for Dooku, stalemating Yoda in two fights puts Dooku at least on parr with Sidious in sabers.
Also, lets analyse Sidious perfrmance against worthy opponents.
When Windu kicked him, Sidious lost the fight. In comparison Kenobi received two much harder kicks from Anakin. Second kick knocked Kenobi off feet and he dropped lightsaber just like Sidious, yet, he got out of that situation unlike Sidious.
Sidious like Dooku couldn't outperform Yoda. Although, I don't believe that Yoda could disarm him without heavily favoring circumstances, nevertheless that's what happened according to script. So Dooku didn't get disarmed on two occasions, unlike Sidious.
Luke at the time of DE wasn't very skilled and certainly wasn't master of any form. Yet, he chopped off Sidious arm after very short fight without need to use any unexpected tricks like kicking in Windu's case. In that fight Sidious got stomped plain and square. It's what Dooku did to Anakin in AotC.
It's not like I am just trying to lowball him but at times his performance can be as embarassing as of any other characters.
I'm going to assume that if Yoda greatly held back in their force contest, that he would also hold back in their lightsaber duel as well. And to support my claim, I used Yoda's lightsaber duel with Sidious. If Yoda can outduel Sidious, who is stronger and a lot faster than Dooku, in a lightsaber duel, then he can most definitely do the same to Dooku.
I am obviously not serious. 🙂 Just pointing out why your logic fails on so many levels.
Originally posted by ArhaelOpress stomped in sabers Dooku, Kenobi and Ventress. Maul stomped Kenobi and then Opress. Yet, later both brothers got outperformed by Kenobi.
One character easily defeating another is demonstration of good execution of a technique and superior state of mind. But in no way it proves that one character is above other characters that he never even fought.
👆
Yes evidence for this is all through the CW series.