Peter Parker vs Steve Rogers

Originally posted by Sin I AM
You make it seem like Parkers rogues are beyond Steve.

Well, yes, several are.

Also, I purposely tried to ignore Parker Particles. Others brought them up first. We don't need his high-end tech showings to make my case - "simple" things like webbing that's stronger than steel and tracers make my case well enough - but the other stuff is certainly icing on the cake. Of course he wouldn't thrive in quite the same way as Cap in the war, but the question is who would be more effective, overall. The answer's still Pete.

I agree with what Blair said.

Originally posted by Digi
Well, yes, several are.

Also, I purposely tried to ignore Parker Particles. Others brought them up first. We don't need his high-end tech showings to make my case - "simple" things like webbing that's stronger than steel and tracers make my case well enough - but the other stuff is certainly icing on the cake. Of course he wouldn't thrive in quite the same way as Cap in the war, but the question is who would be more effective, overall. The answer's still Pete.

I agree with what Blair said.

Steve would still be the better leader and strategist. Also on several occasions throughout history where raw power has failed Steve's ability to be an ambassador as also helped gain respect from various people helping end conflict. Steve tends to be a good at uniting people.

I'm not saying people who choose Peter are wrong but I feel it is not as cut and dry as people would first assume.

Originally posted by Newjak
It could be argued that a few of Steve's rogues are in fact smarter or are at least better planners than Peter is.

Steve would still be the better leader and strategist. Also on several occasions throughout history where raw power has failed Steve's ability to be an ambassador as also helped gain respect from various people helping end conflict. Steve tends to be a good at uniting people.

I'm not saying people who choose Peter are wrong but I feel it is not as cut and dry as people would first assume.

Fair enough. Though none of those things have to do with the body switch. If you value Cap's leadership over Pete's tech, then Cap wins in any scenario here. Again, people taking that angle are having a different discussion than I am.

Personally, I don't value the leadership as much. Someone needs to be followed, and there are other role models in Marvel on any team. That isn't discounting Cap's leadership skills...it's just, when there's only a small handful of people as clever or intelligent as Pete, I value his entire "power worth" a lot more.

That, and, as stated, I think Cap in SM's body might actually be a regress from Pete's current power level, due to lack of webs and other such stuff.

Placed in the same situation, what would Rogers do here DIFFERENTLY from Pete?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14106391

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14106393

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14106398

Originally posted by Digi

That, and, as stated, I think Cap in SM's body might actually be a regress from Pete's current power level, due to lack of webs and other such stuff.

What makes you think he would lack those? Just because he can't build them himself. This is where Steve shines in acquiring what he needs.

You think the SSS experiment, Cap Suit/Shield, Avengers team, Head of Shield, Secret Avengers was given to him at birth? All these he was lacking. The Scientific angle is fine and all but with Steve you have geniuses working for him.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Placed in the same situation, what would Rogers do here DIFFERENTLY from Pete?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14106391

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14106393

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14106398

He'd still lose to Fisk, but he'd get in a few more lines about America and perseverance.

👆

Originally posted by Daredevil1
What makes you think he would lack those? Just because he can't build them himself. This is where Steve shines in acquiring what he needs.

You think the SSS experiment, Cap Suit/Shield, Avengers team, Head of Shield, Secret Avengers was given to him at birth? All these he was lacking. The Scientific angle is fine and all but with Steve you have geniuses working for him.

Can we assume someone else would invent webs for him though? Seems a stretch. Also, again, aren't we beyond the OP stips if we start deciding that Cap can use what others build for him, but Parker exists in a bubble? Besides, beyond the shield, what have all those geniuses done for him in his actual history? He's less powerful than he'd be with spider powers, so presumably he could use the help more.

I actually think Peter would still have webs in Cap's body. I mean, he invented them, yeah? They'd just be called "Freedom Ropes" or something lame.

Well, He's been given things like powered armor and that energy shield.

Originally posted by Digi
Fair enough. Though none of those things have to do with the body switch. If you value Cap's leadership over Pete's tech, then Cap wins in any scenario here. Again, people taking that angle are having a different discussion than I am.

Personally, I don't value the leadership as much. Someone needs to be followed, and there are other role models in Marvel on any team. That isn't discounting Cap's leadership skills...it's just, when there's only a small handful of people as clever or intelligent as Pete, I value his entire "power worth" a lot more.

That, and, as stated, I think Cap in SM's body might actually be a regress from Pete's current power level, due to lack of webs and other such stuff.

There's only a handful of people as tactical and as good a leader as Steve is.

Steve is also intelligent in different ways than Peter. For instance in a tactical game against Baron Zemo I would much rather have Steve leading that charge than Peter.

While Steve might not be able to swing on webs and such Steve with a Spider-sense could be dangerous. It's like a built in life line for a tactical genius.

Now I will agree that generally technology and those kinds of smarts are more useful in a broader range of areas. But there are still areas where Cap clearly superior. I would say Cap is better at managing resources and working with others to help them get things done.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Well, He's been given things like powered armor and that energy shield.

And Peter has built stuff equally and more impressive for himself. My point stands, reinforced imo.

And again, people have built things that have helped Peter. At his current tech job, in the past, the iron spider costume. Are we comparing these two characters, or anyone who's ever done something for them? Seems a silly line of thought.

Originally posted by Newjak
I would say it depends on the situation myself.

There's only a handful of people as tactical and as good a leader as Steve is.

Steve is also intelligent in different ways than Peter. For instance in a tactical game against Baron Zemo I would much rather have Steve leading that charge than Peter.

While Steve might not be able to swing on webs and such Steve with a Spider-sense could be dangerous. It's like a built in life line for a tactical genius.

Now I will agree that generally technology and those kinds of smarts are more useful in a broader range of areas. But there are still areas where Cap clearly superior. I would say Cap is better at managing resources and working with others to help them get things done.

If you want some sort of concession, that each man is more useful in certain situations, you have it. No one could make the claim that Peter is always more useful. But we're talking in totality, or on average. I think Spidey is more useful on the whole right now in the Marvel universe (though both are, of course, very important). I don't think a body swap would change that.

Originally posted by Digi
Can we assume someone else would invent webs for him though? Seems a stretch. Also, again, aren't we beyond the OP stips if we start deciding that Cap can use what others build for him, but Parker exists in a bubble? Besides, beyond the shield, what have all those geniuses done for him in his actual history? He's less powerful than he'd be with spider powers, so presumably he could use the help more.

I actually think Peter would still have webs in Cap's body. I mean, he invented them, yeah? They'd just be called "Freedom Ropes" or something lame.

What makes you think it would just be webs? Other tech Digi to compensate. And to pretend that is a stretch would be a tall tale.

What have those geniuses done for him. More like what haven't they done. Tony Stark gave him his own Iron Armor suit and Vibranium shield. Heck he uses other characters powers obviously for his teams. I don't think I need to fill the gap here on the power houses that he has lead. When his SSS was degenerating he relied on Science. Resources he even used the Nova force for a good while in Secret Avengers. Lots of the equipment from Avengers and Shield.

Heck he was offered the Power Broker treatment but he turned it down. Due to Steve saying there is always going to be some one more powerful. Steve can acquire powers/tech pretty easily due to the nature of his character.

But with Steve teams/resources. He doesn't really need to be a powerhouse on his own an extra is just the icing on the cake. Now like I stated the Science angle is fine but with Steve there are some definite advantages to be seen, that's different from being a science/tech guy.

Originally posted by Digi
And Peter has built stuff equally and more impressive for himself. My point stands, reinforced imo.

The point is Steve has done great for himself with just the SSS, give him Spider-man level stats and he's going to be Cap+++++

Originally posted by Daredevil1
What makes you think it would just be webs? Other tech Digi to compensate. And to pretend that is a stretch would be a tall tale.

What have those geniuses done for him. More like what haven't they done. Tony Stark gave him his own Iron Armor suit and Vibranium shield. Heck he uses other characters powers obviously for his teams. I don't think I need to fill the gap here on the power houses that he has lead. When his SSS was degenerating he relied on Science. Resources he even used the Nova force for a good while in Secret Avengers. Lots of the equipment from Avengers and Shield.

Heck he was offered the Power Broker treatment but he turned it down. Due to Steve saying there is always going to be some one more powerful.

But with Steve teams/resources. He doesn't really need to be a powerhouse. Now does he like I stated the Science angle is fine but with Steve there are some definite advantages to be seen, that's different from being a science/tech guy.

Well, first, this:

Originally posted by Digi
And Peter has built stuff equally and more impressive for himself. My point stands, reinforced imo.

And again, people have built things that have helped Peter. At his current tech job, in the past, the iron spider costume. Are we comparing these two characters, or anyone who's ever done something for them? Seems a silly line of thought.

...and second, if you want to start saying things like "The Nova Corps fought for Steve" then if we allow such arguments, this debate gets silly. The Avengers recently fought under Pete's leadership in Ends of the Earth, where he ended up doing more to save the day than any of them, Thor included.

The Nova Corps would have fought for whoever was in charge of SHIELD. The Avengers would have followed any hero into battle in Ends of the Earth, not just Peter. You're not making a character argument in these cases, you're just piggybacking on the powers of others that aren't Steve.

"The Uni-Power once picked Peter to be its avatar. Clearly he brings more to the table as a hero." See the flaw?

Originally posted by Silent Master
The point is Steve has done great for himself with just the SSS, give him Spider-man level stats and he's going to be Cap+++++

Even without the supersoldier serum he was kicking ass on many occasions.

Does anyone remember why Spider-Man invented his webbing...

Correct me if I'm wrong but it was some sort if inspiration based upon the spider bite. Other then that he didn't really have many tech feats for years into his career...

An then the argument would be that the webbin isn't something Peter would have come into on his own if he hadnt been bitten.

Originally posted by Digi
Well, first, this:

...and second, if you want to start saying things like "The Nova Corps fought for Steve" then if we allow such arguments, this debate gets silly. The Avengers recently fought under Pete's leadership in Ends of the Earth, where he ended up doing more to save the day than any of them, Thor included.

The Nova Corps would have fought for whoever was in charge of SHIELD. The Avengers would have followed any hero into battle in Ends of the Earth, not just Peter. You're not making a character argument in these cases, you're just piggybacking on the powers of others that aren't Steve.

"The Uni-Power once picked Peter to be its avatar. Clearly he brings more to the table as a hero." See the flaw?

Yes....yes even Wolverine got chosen once for omnipotent type powers. But this is the standard for Steve.......not the ladder. This is Steve's nature of his character. It comes with who he is.

If you want to argue Parker is this as well. Fine. But I doubt that is his standard MO. Shruggs. Take away this from Steve and its pretty much like taking away Pete's science angle.

Its one of the reasons why Steve is so great.

Originally posted by Digi
And Peter has built stuff equally and more impressive for himself. My point stands, reinforced imo.

And again, people have built things that have helped Peter. At his current tech job, in the past, the iron spider costume. Are we comparing these two characters, or anyone who's ever done something for them? Seems a silly line of thought.

If you want some sort of concession, that each man is more useful in certain situations, you have it. No one could make the claim that Peter is always more useful. But we're talking in totality, or on average. I think Spidey is more useful on the whole right now in the Marvel universe (though both are, of course, very important). I don't think a body swap would change that.

For me it depends on different scenarios.

If we are talking in a vacuum with no outside assistance Peter will be more likely to be the most useful in most areas with Steve dominating small pockets.

If we are talking about in the Marvel U while interacting with other people Steve's skills might be more useful than Peter's. Mostly due to the fact there are people smarter than or as smart as Peter in the MU and it's not like the list is count them on one hand long.

I think steve will always be more useful in a large team oriented Scenario than Peter.

My reasons being Steve is a great manager of teams/people/resources and gets the absolute best out of them. That's a very useful skill in a place where you are dealing with lots of individuals of varying skills and strengths.

Peter might do more than Steve as an individual will but you put Steve in charge of any operation and he's going to make whatever they do better and make them produce consistently at their highest levels and beyond.

Originally posted by rotiart
Does anyone remember why Spider-Man invented his webbing...

Correct me if I'm wrong but it was some sort if inspiration based upon the spider bite. Other then that he didn't really have many tech feats for years into his career...

An then the argument would be that the webbin isn't something Peter would have come into on his own if he hadnt been bitten.

iirc it was an old science project he had from highschool...

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Yes....yes even Wolverine got chosen once for omnipotent type powers. But this is the standard for Steve.......not the ladder. This is Steve's nature of his character. It comes with who he is.

If you want to argue Parker is this as well. Fine. But I doubt that is his standard MO. Shruggs. Take away this from Steve and its pretty much like taking away Pete's science angle.

Its one of the reasons why Steve is so great.

Originally posted by Newjak
I don't want a concession I want your tears 😛

For me it depends on different scenarios.

If we are talking in a vacuum with no outside assistance Peter will be more likely to be the most useful in most areas with Steve dominating small pockets.

If we are talking about in the Marvel U while interacting with other people Steve's skills might be more useful than Peter's. Mostly due to the fact there are people smarter than or as smart as Peter in the MU and it's not like the list is count them on one hand long.

I think steve will always be more useful in a large team oriented Scenario than Peter.

My reasons being Steve is a great manager of teams/people/resources and gets the absolute best out of them. That's a very useful skill in a place where you are dealing with lots of individuals of varying skills and strengths.

Peter might do more than Steve as an individual will but you put Steve in charge of any operation and he's going to make whatever they do better and make them produce consistently at their highest levels and beyond.

ALL of this is still a different debate than I'm having.

The OP question is about the body swap. Before I got dragged into the esoteric qualities of Cap's ability to induce patriot boners, that's literally all I was talking about. Both dudes, opposite bodies, their own intelligence, skill, and resources. Who comes out better in a fight. That battle goes to Pete, and quite clearly imo.

Because if you think Steve's leadership skills make him a better, more important hero, then there you go. The debate is settled, regardless of body or innate powers, and the OP's scenario is meaningless to the outcome. But in doing so, you've successfully ignored the OP stips, or at least made them superfluous, in order to frame the argument in Cap's favor. I'm not even sure that wins the fight for Cap, because for all of his great leadership, other leaders would be found. It's not like a world chock full of unimaginably noble heroes is lacking those who could fill in admirably. But that's beside the point. I'm done arguing about the quantity of subjective traits as they play out over decades of comic stories.

To each his own then. If Steve isn't allowed to use his character traits of what he does best through his ability regardless of his new power. Then yes I agree Parker wins this scenario. If Steve is completely on his "own" then yes Spiderman wins.

But outside from this it should be no secret that Steve's advantages dominate Pete's from the circumstances that I'm speaking about. Fair enough then.