Originally posted by The_Tempest
Contrary to your outlandish suggestion, the Imperial Guard aren't just that awesome that they're somehow all but immune to telekinesis at all times, which is irretrievably stupid when you consider that Jedi Masters and Sith Lords across the mythos have been ragdolled by telekinesis when they were unprepared for it.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Well, if the "light side/dark side combo" TK burst is precisely what protected Revan from Vitiate and nothing else... then how did Scourge and Surik emerge unscathed, since they did not replicate the feat during the battle?
However, Vitiate have given Scourge a glimpse of his telekinetic abilities before:
As he spoke, the dark circles of his eyes seemed to fill with a swirling red mist, and for a brief instant the Emperor gave Scourge a glimpse of his true self.
Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor's mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation.
It was over as quickly as it had begun, the awful vision retreating into his subconscious like a repressed memory as Scourge picked himself up off the floor. Neither Captain Yarri nor the robed Sith made any move to help him.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Asyoua rational person might expect from a world that has been populated by countless Sith Lords for a thousand years, the entire planet is a dark side nexus.
However, merely by standing on dark side nexus doesn't grants a dark-sider unlimited vitality or supernatural abilities. One has to tap in to that nexus to gain some leverage.
For example: Zannah had to tap in to the dark side nexus on Ambria to summon the tendrils, which she used to defeat Bane.
So, is their any sort of hint or evidence which suggests that Vitiate used the dark side nexus to his advantage at this point?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
It only goes to show how fragile the bond really is, when all one need do to break it is tell one of the thralls to fight it.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
haermmDo you have any evidence to suggest that this is the case or are you simply throwing out baseless assumptions? Any ghost of a suggestion that Orgus Din somehow actively aided telepathically, when his words imply otherwise? You'll note he didn't say "you and I are stronger than his influence!" but rather, "you are stronger than his influence!"
Your assertion in this regard is inconclusive unless a written canonical description of this event comes out and clears the picture for audience, which I doubt will happen any time soon.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because if this discussion is going to devolve into "well, this could be the case," then I've already won it: I can do the exact same thing with Vitiate's reliance on preparation and rituals. The only difference is that I can actively support that theory with multiple lines of canonical text that support it.Otherwise, your assumptions notwithstanding, I don't have to prove a negative.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Cool story, bro.But not only is this thread not about Palpatine, no one has suggested that Sidious could permanently or indefinitely enthrall fully prepared Force users.
Self-proclaimed geniuses, these days. 🙄
Originally posted by The_Tempest
True, except for the fact that Carsen clearly does equate them.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I do recall. The fact that Revan and Malak continued to implement Vitiate's plan is irrelevant when they were assuming control of that plan for their own gain.
Revan broke free fully after he underwent mind-wipe.
Later on, Revan's understanding of the Force increased to such a degree that he was well-prepared to handle Vitiate's telepathic assault. Credit goes to Revan for this. This doesn't suggests that every Tom, D***, and harry can pull this off, specially as a first-timer.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'll remember this on all things Tobin, heneforth.
What a majestically-sprung trap, if I do say so myself. excellent
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Except, unlike the Hero or Carsen, there is no evidence of Braga's release from Vitiate's hold, even when he agrees to return to the Jedi Order, indicating that such a release occurred long ago as he said.The fact that he continued to align himself with Vitiate's goals and designs does not require that he be subject to mental domination.
And even if we assume Braga's claim to be correct; Vitiate still broke him regardless of his mental durability/abilities in the first encounter. This is the important part for this debate.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The dilemma is that what I "chose" to take from it has an abundance of support: we never see Vitiate assume control of a fully prepared Force user. Instead, he relies on traps, misdirection, rituals, preparation, and an assortment of unfair advantages that, while clever, do not lend any support to the notion that he can achieve the same results on neutral ground with a fully conscious enemy who does not underestimate him.
This evidence indicates that Vitiate used FLS and his telepathic abilities simultaneously. So even if we are to assume that Vitiate faces fully prepared adversaries; they can still fall in to his trap.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
You, however politely, are simply sticking your fingers in your ears and going "nuh uh."
Originally posted by The_Tempest
There is no evidence to suggest that any of them were prepared to face him.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Revan openly confesses in the book that he and Malak highly underestimated Vitiate, who had sprung an elaborate trap for them.
Instead of nit-picking between the statements, try to comprehend the whole scenario.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Scourge raises the same concern to Nyriss, who explains that the Sith Lords probably did not expect treachery from Vitiate, given that he was outnumbered dramatically.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Additionally, the three relevant sources on the subject conflict: Nyriss says the Sith Lords were mentally enthralled by Vitiate, but The Old Republic Encyclopedia and the in-game codex suggest that it was a truly cooperative effort. Perhaps the Sith Lords didn't understand the ritual's true intent until it was too late.
Also, I will get this encyclopedia next month and will let you know, if your claim is valid or made-up.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yup.
It's not ridiculous when, as usual, I have a mountain of support. It is ridiculous when, as usual, you protest when your support extends only to indignant outrage.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalmEven if true, it does not follow that because Vitiate is the telepath supreme he can do whatever he wants to anyone telepathically despite their level of Force strength and resolve.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
In case you've forgotten, even the most powerful adepts have in place limitations on their abilities.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which is why certain, more intelligent folks have sources that Sidious mentally subjugated billions and telepathically manipulated anywhere from millions to trillions of Coruscant's population, but don't argue that "lol he can mindpwn anyone anywhere mwahahahah!" As you indicated, a lone prepared Force user is able to shrug off the influence of a man who can do all that.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
UnuThul was bolstered by the Force potential of countless Killiks and succeeded in manipulating Luke Skywalker, whose powers were bolstered by zilch, until Skywalker was prepared for him and then it ended in abject failure.
Luke didn't just brush-off UnuThul's mental assaults. He had history with UnuThul and he used that to his advantage whenever UnuThul attempted to manipulate him. Also, UnuThul's telepathic assaults involves Dun Moch. Vitiate's telepathic assaults are much different in nature and more effective.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
But I'll give you credit for trying to quietly introduce a blatant no-limits fallacy to Vitiate. 👆
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Where?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
facepalmHow about Revan? Or are we skipping that big plot twist for your convenience?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
😂That's if he succeeds in enthralling them in the first place. Which I suppose you could argue, if you mean to suggest that Yoda will either do nothing or take a nap.
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Originally posted by Nephthys
I think its clear that I hit a nerve. 😉
All right, it's 9:56am and I'm calling it. Unless anyone else has something to offer, I think I'm going to pull out (something some of your mothers have probably heard me say more than once).
Jadams, good to see you, bro. Try to stick around, that was one of the funnest debates I've had in many moons.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The more digging I do, the more holes I find with Vitiate's mind control and the less impressed I am.The specter of Orgus Din does not seem to convey any top secret technique, but instead simply tells the Hero to be "stronger than [Vitiate's] influence" and, in a matter of moments, the Hero is released. Afterwards, Carsen indicates her achievement with Vitiate is very similar: "I know you're still in there. You're not one of them. If I can beat him, you can too! Additionally, an enthralled!Tol Braga had long "broke free" of Vitiate's influence by the time the player duels him.
It's also telling that Vitiate only succeeded in breaking Braga and the Hero down after they were helpless and either unconscious or lapsing into it.
Unless there is something else to be offered, I am completely unconvinced that Vitiate can dominate a powerful Force user on his guard, much less restraining them indefinitely.
That's very true. I pointed out about it long ago. All we have is vague statements from Revan and Nyriss and never see Vitiate demonstrating mind domination in action. Instead he handles strike team with lightning and later in fight with JK he uses old fashioned Dun Moch instead. Moreover, there was no survivors on Nathema, thus no witnesses, so Nyriss' story is likely just a fear device that Vitiate rumored himself.
Sidious in comparison demonstrated mind domination on Marek and DE Luke, yet, people don't assume that he just gonna mind dominate everyone.
Originally posted by Arhael
That's very true. I pointed out about it long ago. All we have is vague statements from Revan and Nyriss and never see Vitiate demonstrating mind domination in action. Instead he handles strike team with lightning and later in fight with JK he uses old fashioned Dun Moch instead. Moreover, there was no survivors on Nathema, thus no witnesses, so Nyriss' story is likely just a fear device that Vitiate rumored himself.Sidious in comparison demonstrated mind domination on Marek and DE Luke, yet, people don't assume that he just gonna mind dominate everyone.
There are plenty of sources that confirm the ritual on Nathema.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
All right, it's 9:56am and I'm calling it. Unless anyone else has something to offer, I think I'm going to pull out (something some of your mothers have probably heard me say more than once).Jadams, good to see you, bro. Try to stick around, that was one of the funnest debates I've had in many moons.
Sorry, I have work so I couldn't and probably won't reply for a while.
Sidious and especially Vitiate had exceeded the use of lightsabers, that means the weapon was useless for them and they could destroy the weapon wielded by any Jedi, even the like of Luke, Yoda, Satele and Revan.
But they weren't so far beyond the lightsaber that they were invulnerable like the Force Wielders from the Overlord episode of TCW Season 3.
Originally posted by jadams3928
There are plenty of sources that confirm the ritual on Nathema.
In any case JK didn't even struggle to resist mind domination in final fight with Vitiate, don't see why others would struggle.
Sidious and especially Vitiate had exceeded the use of lightsabers, that means the weapon was useless for them and they could destroy the weapon wielded by any Jedi, even the like of Luke, Yoda, Satele and Revan.Not exactly. Sidious stopped using lightsaber because Darkside decayed his body and he simply wasn't fit to engage in physical combat but when he started using clone bodies, lightsaber became his first choice again. As for Vitiate he simply never learned to use it.
Originally posted by Arhael
In any case JK didn't even struggle to resist mind domination in final fight with Vitiate, don't see why others would struggle.
Originally posted by Arhael
Not exactly. Sidious stopped using lightsaber because Darkside decayed his body and he simply wasn't fit to engage in physical combat but when he started using clone bodies, lightsaber became his first choice again. As for Vitiate he simply never learned to use it.
They both kept their lightsabers as souvenirs. They could both wield it to a more ferocious degree than any Jedi (in their physical prime though they were both corrupted and decayed by The Dark that gave them their power and immortality). Sidious could simply blow up a lightsaber at full power or blow it out of a Jedi's hands with Sith lightning and Vitiate could simply cast a spell, dominate a mind, create a burst of evil energy that will pulverize any lightsaber wielding Jedi.
The Force is far more powerful than the weapon, yet every Jedi in history was more dangerous with the weapon than without. These two most successful and evil Sith Emperors were unaffected by use of the Jedi weapon, it neither helped nor hindered them in battle for the Force was stronger with them than with any Jedi.
As it was with the Ones, but to an astronomically greater degree.
It seems a lot of the arguments revolve around a Jedi's ability to resist mental domination. It seems everyone has acknowledged, to some degree, that Vitiate's mental domination can be beaten.
IMHO, I seem to be agree with Tempest - 99.99% of Jedi would probably be overwhelmed by such domination, but if the very best Jedi (Luke, Yoda, Mace, Marek, Revan, etc.) enter the fray without underestimating their opponent, they all have the ability to resist mental rapeage.
Originally posted by jadams3928
That was never the idea.
No, that was the idea between you and Neph. My SOP regarding SWL is to ignore him, but I bet I'd find it in his posts too.
Originally posted by jadams3928
The only thing that has been soundly defeated is that Yoda or the top tier jedi are guaranteed to beat Vitiate's mind control.
lol
Originally posted by -kV-
As for the purposes of this thread, which two Jedi can defeat DE Sidious & Vitiate: Luke & Yoda/Mace/Galen/Revan, or Yoda & Mace/Galen/Revan IMO.
Feat-to-feat, Luke absolutely demolishes Vitiate once the mind tricks are all nullified. Then he goes on to waste Sidious after a better fight.
For the others? A combination of Sidious and Vitiate would require more than two.