DE Sidious and Lord Vitiate

Started by jadams392813 pages
jadams3928 Restricted

Originally posted by The_Tempest
My argument isn't anything of the sort.

First, I haven't once pitted Sidious against Vitiate.

Second, with those whom I have pitted against Vitiate, my argument is that the mind trick will not work against a prepared Force user and not without prior preparation on Vitiate's part.


But this argument is pure speculation because we've seen it work on everybody.

There is everything to resolve. We are to exchange arguments. I will throw jabs and taunts in if my opponent becomes aggressive or hostile, but not at the expense of the overall argument. Anything else is just trolling.

Do you really want this to devolve into trolling? Because that is the ultimate waste of time. [/B]

Until you can show an example of someone withstanding Vitiate's mind domination (not the Emperor's Children or the Hero of Tython fighting a weakened Emperor's Voice), your argument is pure speculation.

The_Tempest Senior Member
jadams3928
But this argument is pure speculation

I gathered and presented multiple quotes from three different sources that support the argument that Vitiate has never applied the technique successfully against a prepared Force user at whim.

jadams3928
because we've seen it work on everybody.

It worked on opponents who have either underestimated him or were beaten unconscious.

jadams3928
Until you can show an example of someone withstanding Vitiate's mind domination (not the Emperor's Children or the Hero of Tython fighting a weakened Emperor's Voice), your argument is pure speculation.

It didn't work on Revan.

jadams3928 Restricted

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I gathered and presented multiple quotes from three different sources that support the argument that Vitiate has never applied the technique successfully against a prepared Force user at whim.

Except we've only seen one opponent who was truly prepared, and he needed to achieve perfect equilibrium of light and dark side. There are no other sources, so again, your argument is speculation. But regardless of preparation or not, 8,000 sith lords is 8,000 sith lords.

It worked on opponents who have either underestimated him or were beaten unconscious.

So you're going to make excuses again? "If this happens and then this happens and then this happens, then Vitiate loses." We get it. But you have absolutely no evidence that evidence other than Revan's technique would be sufficient enough to fight the mind domination.

The_Tempest Senior Member
jadams3928
Except we've only seen one opponent who was truly prepared, and he needed to achieve perfect equilibrium of light and dark side.

There is no evidence that Revan needed to achieve perfect equilibrium with the light and dark side to resist.

jadams3928
There are no other sources, so again, your argument is speculation.

No, The Old Republic Encyclopedia and in-game codex indicate that it was an effort of cooperation on part of the Sith Lords, not coercion from Vitiate.

jadams3928
But regardless of preparation or not, 8,000 sith lords is 8,000 sith lords.

Regardless of preparation?

Preparation can mean the difference between life and death, even for Force users. Aayla Secura was shot in the back by her clone commandos; by your logic, they'd kill her every time, "regardless of preparation."

jadams3928
So you're going to make excuses again? "If this happens and then this happens and then this happens, then Vitiate loses." We get it. But you have absolutely no evidence that evidence other than Revan's technique would be sufficient enough to fight the mind domination.

You have absolutely no evidence to suggest that Revan's technique is necessary to resist when all it did was put Vitiate on his ass.

It isn't an excuse to point out that Vitiate's efforts, even on a dark side nexus, take time and concentration. Plenty of time for an extraordinarily fast Force user like Yoda to respond in kind.

jadams3928 Restricted

Originally posted by The_Tempest
There is no evidence that Revan needed to achieve perfect equilibrium with the light and dark side to resist.

Except all Revan explicitly stated in the book. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not.

No, The Old Republic Encyclopedia and in-game codex indicate that it was an effort of cooperation on part of the Sith Lords, not coercion from Vitiate.

Who were already under his sway. I have the Encyclopedia too.

You have absolutely no evidence to suggest that Revan's technique is necessary to resist when all it did was put Vitiate on his ass.

Lets see. Revan is the only one to create a specific technique to combat Vitiate's mind domination. Revan is the only one who succeeded in this regard. Logical deduction ftw! Next=?

It isn't an excuse to point out that Vitiate's efforts, even on a dark side nexus, take time and concentration. Plenty of time for an extraordinarily fast Force user like Yoda to respond in kind. [/B]

Vitiate's throne room wasn't a dark side nexus.

Arhael Devoid of reality

You make sense, if you ignore all of those force users Vitiate had mind dominated and instead focused on your own biases. Then again, the Hero of Tython was a special case, fighting a weakened version of the Emperor's Voice.

No, JK is not special case. He broke free from mind domination because a ghost spirit encouraged him. Then same way other mind dominated Jedi from strike team broke free with encouragment from JK. What makes him special is that he was confident to confront Vitiate and others hyped him as the only one to resist domination because he never said them about a ghost helping him.
In any case the strike team got mind dominated after being rendered unconscious. Similarly Revan got his memory wiped out by Jedi while unconscious, do we assume that those Jedi can mind wipe him in combat?

There is no evidence that Vitiate could mind dominate any powerful and experienced Jedi in combat. Deal with it.

Also, it is not the fact that JK fought weakened Emperor. If player completes a quest, then he fights recovered Emperor. Also, JK was weakened as he needed to kill hell lot of people just to get to him. And Vitiate himself stated that JK wasted his power saving the weak. Like it or not JK defeated Vitiate fair and square.

The_Tempest Senior Member
Originally posted by jadams3928
Except all Revan explicitly stated in the book. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not.

Where is it explicitly stated in the book that one has to channel the light and dark side perfectly to stop Vitiate?

Originally posted by jadams3928
Who were already under his sway. I have the Encyclopedia too.

Where is that said in the Encyclopedia and what is the full quote?

Originally posted by jadams3928
Lets see. Revan is the only one to create a specific technique to combat Vitiate's mind domination. Revan is the only one who succeeded in this regard. Logical deduction ftw! Next=?

Revan was the only one who didn't underestimate him. I see no reason why we should assume Yoda would underestimate him.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Vitiate's throne room wasn't a dark side nexus.

All of Dromund Kaas is strong with the dark side, per Revan. I gave the quote earlier in this thread in a response to Nephthys.

jadams3928 Restricted

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Where is it explicitly stated in the book that one has to channel the light and dark side perfectly to stop Vitiate?

Revan explicitly stated that he figured out a way to combat Vitiate's mind domination, and he did it with his technique.

Revan was the only one who didn't underestimate him. I see no reason why we should assume Yoda would underestimate him.

Yup, the same guy who watched Sidious raise his arms and shoot him with force lightning. Great example.

All of Dromund Kaas is strong with the dark side, per Revan. I gave the quote earlier in this thread in a response to Nephthys. [/B]

Nice Red Herring. You said dark side nexus. That is not the same thing as "strong with the dark side."

There is no evidence that Vitiate could mind dominate any powerful and experienced Jedi in combat. Deal with it.

Except that he has, so quit crying. Maybe you should amend your idiot statement to say "there is no evidence Vitiate could dominate anyone that he hasn't dominated already." That idiocy would make more sense.

Also, it is not the fact that JK fought weakened Emperor. If player completes a quest, then he fights recovered Emperor. Also, JK was weakened as he needed to kill hell lot of people just to get to him. And Vitiate himself stated that JK wasted his power saving the weak. Like it or not JK defeated Vitiate fair and square.

What are you babbling about? Completes what quest? I've played the JK twice. Him fighting a weakened Emperor's Voice IS the storyline.

The_Tempest Senior Member
Originally posted by Arhael
In any case the strike team got mind dominated after being rendered unconscious. Similarly Revan got his memory wiped out by Jedi while unconscious, do we assume that those Jedi can mind wipe him in combat?

That's a good point.

Or, as been referenced, the Emperor with Marek and Luke. In the case of the former, he was distracted and nearly-consumed with hatred: all it took was Bail Organa shouting at him to break him free. With Luke, he had just been beaten by Sidious on Byss, a dark side nexus. When urged by Leia aboard The Eclipse, he freed himself.

Originally posted by Arhael
If player completes a quest, then he fights recovered Emperor.

Really?

jadams3928 Restricted

Originally posted by The_Tempest
[B]That's a good point.

Or, as been referenced, the Emperor with Marek and Luke. In the case of the former, he was distracted and nearly-consumed with hatred: all it took was Bail Organa shouting at him to break him free. With Luke, he had just been beaten by Sidious on Byss, a dark side nexus. When urged by Leia aboard The Eclipse, he freed himself.


Great point, if you disregard the 8,000 mind wiped sith lords.

The_Tempest Senior Member

Why are you being so hostile lol?

Originally posted by jadams3928
Revan explicitly stated that he figured out a way to combat Vitiate's mind domination, and he did it with his technique.

That's not quite what I asked. You said Revan explicitly stated one need channel the light and dark sides of the Force in perfect equilibrium to resist Vitiate?

What is the full quote?

Originally posted by jadams3928
Yup, the same guy who watched Sidious raise his arms and shoot him with force lightning. Great example.

I didn't say Yoda was incapable of underestimating Vitiate, I asked you why we should assume he would when we typically do not include character idiosyncrasies in debates.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Nice Red Herring. You said dark side nexus. That is not the same thing as "strong with the dark side."

It's typically the same thing, is it not? A location potent with the dark side?

The_Tempest Senior Member
Originally posted by jadams3928
Great point, if you disregard the 8,000 mind wiped sith lords.

There is nothing to disregard. Of the three relevant sources, only one suggests that an unspecified number of Sith Lords were enthralled an unspecified time after arriving on Nathema.

The other two sources convey that they volunteered to partake in the ritual after their arrival.

jadams3928 Restricted

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Why are you being so hostile lol?

Because this forum has been full of morons for the past year so I call them out.

That's not quite what I asked. You said Revan explicitly stated one need channel the light and dark sides of the Force in perfect equilibrium to resist Vitiate?

What is the full quote?


I did not say that, nor does it need to be said. Revan said he figured out a way to fight the emperor's domination and that next time, he'll be ready. When they meet, he's ready for the mind domination and unleashes the technique. The fact that he created a technique to specifically fight the mind domination DOES NOT NEED to be explicitly stated. The fact that this technique is the only thing that worked puts the burden of proof back on you.

I didn't say Yoda was incapable of underestimating Vitiate, I asked you why we should assume he would when we typically do not include character idiosyncrasies in debates.

Because we saw him already underestimating the most powerful sith lord ever?

It's typically the same thing, is it not? A location potent with the dark side? [/B]
No, it is not.

jadams3928 Restricted

There is nothing to disregard. Of the three relevant sources, only one suggests that an unspecified number of Sith Lords were enthralled an unspecified time after arriving on Nathema.

The other two sources convey that they volunteered to partake in the ritual after their arrival.

Which two sources? I have all these sources, and none of them contradict one another.

The_Tempest Senior Member
Originally posted by jadams3928
Because this forum has been full of morons for the past year so I call them out.

Are you sure? Because it seems like you're getting mad that people are disagreeing with you.

Originally posted by jadams3928
I did not say that, nor does it need to be said.

Are you sure?

jadams3928
[quote]The_Tempest
There is no evidence that Revan needed to achieve perfect equilibrium with the light and dark side to resist.

Except all Revan explicitly stated in the book. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not.[/quote]

^ That looks like you saying exactly that, IMHO.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Revan said he figured out a way to fight the emperor's domination and that next time, he'll be ready. When they meet, he's ready for the mind domination and unleashes the technique. The fact that he created a technique to specifically fight the mind domination DOES NOT NEED to be explicitly stated. The fact that this technique is the only thing that worked puts the burden of proof back on you.

It seems extremely unlikely that this is the case, bro. Revan notes that Vitiate was "hesitant" and "uncertain" when Surik entered the fray, yet she didn't channel the light and dark side in an explosion nor was she enthralled by him.

Originally posted by jadams3928
Because we saw him already underestimating the most powerful sith lord ever?

Again, since when do we consider character foibles and idiosyncrasies in these threads? That seems like a dangerous road to walk.

Originally posted by jadams3928
No, it is not.

Seems to be the case. Luke refers to a nexus as places where the Force lingers and concentrates in Fate of the Jedi: Outcast.

The_Tempest Senior Member
Originally posted by jadams3928
Which two sources? I have all these sources, and none of them contradict one another.

"Eight thousand Sith Lords gathered on Medriaas and agreed to partake in a ritual that would bind the Sith together as an ultimate dark side weapon."

The text indicates that it was voluntary act that was later celebrated by Imperial scholars as a rare demonstration of cooperation among Sith for the betterment of the empire (the codex).

Use of mental suggestion/mind tricks/etc. would preclude that as being the case.

jadams3928 Restricted

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Are you sure? Because it seems like you're getting mad that people are disagreeing with you.

Like you were with DE? There's a difference. I don't get mad when I'm right🙂

Are you sure?

Positive

all Revan explicitly stated in the book. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not.

Yup

^ That looks like you saying exactly that, IMHO.

Yup, I said Revan explicitly stated that he figured out a way to combat the Emperor's mind domination. Good job.

It seems extremely unlikely that this is the case, bro. Revan notes that Vitiate was "hesitant" and "uncertain" when Surik entered the fray, yet she didn't channel the light and dark side in an explosion nor was she enthralled by him.

Nor does it state anywhere that Vitiate tried to dominate her.

Seems to be the case. Luke refers to a nexus as places where the Force lingers and concentrates in Fate of the Jedi: Outcast. [/B]

That was never a definition of a force nexus. Do a wiki on force nexus.

And you said two sources? Where are these sources. Then again, how valid would the SWTOR source be when nobody that could know about the Ritual could have survived? And the SWTOR source is the same one that stated that after Vitiate performed the ritual and destroyed the planet, he blamed the Jedi.

The_Tempest Senior Member
Originally posted by jadams3928
Like you were with DE? There's a difference. I don't get mad when I'm right🙂

I already explained it to you:

The_Tempest
I will throw jabs and taunts in if my opponent becomes aggressive or hostile,
Originally posted by jadams3928
Yup, I said Revan explicitly stated that he figured out a way to combat the Emperor's mind domination. Good job.

I said "there is no evidence" that one has to channel the light and dark sides in perfect equilibrium to resist; you said Revan "explicitly" says it in the book.

Maybe you misspoke?

Originally posted by jadams3928
Nor does it state anywhere that Vitiate tried to dominate her.

Why wouldn't he?

Originally posted by jadams3928
That was never a definition of a force nexus. Do a wiki on force nexus.

I'm supposed to take a wiki entry's word over Luke's in an actual source?

Originally posted by jadams3928
Also here's another source from the swtor game

http://www.wikiswtor.com/Codex/Galactic_History_31:_The_Ritual_of_Nathema

I'll take a look.

By the way, the official TOR website says Dromund Kaas "bristles" with the dark side.

The_Tempest Senior Member

Oh, didn't see your edit there. That's awkward, my bad.

jadams3928
And you said two sources? Where are these sources. Then again, how valid would the SWTOR source be when nobody that could know about the Ritual could have survived? And the SWTOR source is the same one that stated that after Vitiate performed the ritual and destroyed the planet, he blamed the Jedi.

No domination is mentioned in the source to which you just linked me. The sources I'm using are The Old Republic Encyclopedia and the codex, which separately indicate that it was an act of cooperation among the Sith as opposed to coercion by Vitiate.

As far as their validity, well, all of the sources in question are in-universe: Nyriss, the Old Republic Encyclopedia, and the codex. They're all equally fallible and we should be skeptical of all of them, which is why discerning information about the ritual is so damn hard.

jadams3928 Restricted

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I already explained it to you:

You can take all the jabs you want. If you're wrong, it doesn't matter me in the slightest.

I said "there is no evidence" that one has to channel the light and dark sides in perfect equilibrium to resist; you said Revan "explicitly" says it in the book.

Maybe you misspoke?


The argument was regarding Revan's technique. The fact that you needed to mention the specific technique to try to shift the burden of proof, when it's already been proven that Revan created a technique to fight the Emperor, is telling enough. If you weren't reaching, you wouldn't have said what you said. Had you said, "there is no evidence that one has to have a technique to fight Vitiate's mind domination", you would be wrong. So I applaud your semantics.

I'm supposed to take a wiki entry's word over Luke's in an actual source?

Luke isn't an authority on force nexus. Wikipedia has plenty of sources that determine what a source nexus is.

By the way, the official TOR website says Dromund Kaas "bristles" with the dark side. [/B]

So what? Ossus bristled with the light side. That doesn't make it a nexus.