Palpatine vs Dooku, Savage, and Ventress

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I doubt that he'll have the opening, or the speed to take them down before getting slaughtered. Take, Dooku, the guy is a force monster, and can OHKO people but only because he also has the saber chops to back it up. Starkiller does not. He lacks the saber prowess to fend off 2 opponents one of which is vastly his superior in the area of dueling, while offing another with TK.
They won't have to if Dooku's pressuring him with sabers. That's the thing. I don't think Starkiller will last long at all against Dooku

None of the team is fast enough to really close the gap before Starkiller can unleash his Force Powers. You're also underestimating Starkiller's lightsaber abilities, as per the first games description his skills were 'near perfect', and he was able to outduel Vader and Shaak Ti. Dooku is by no means his vast superior. Starkiller is also adept at using hie Force powers in combat and has in every duel he's been in. In his fight with Shaak Ti he was able to telekinetically block her lightsaber while engaging her.

What if he simply uses a Force Repulse at the start of the fight? That would force the team back or into a defensive position long enough for him to start really bringing his abilities to bare imo.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
This is a terrible example. Tol Braga is the only one of note who he defeated because he fought a Dark Council member for 5 days. The Hero of Tython was weaker than he is in the final confrontation...but he did defeat Darth Angral which is pretty good. The other two are featless knights, they weren't even masters they were hardly "the greatest Jedi of the TOR era".
You speak as though he defeated Satele Shan, Jaric Kaedan, the maxed Hero fo Tython, and the Barsen'thor at the same time. Those would be the greatest Jedi of the TOR era.

Sorry, but the Jedi Knight Act II exposition/loading screen claims that Tol Braga's team is made up of the 'greatest Jedi in the galaxy.'

The Hero of Tython was still powerful enough to defeat Lord Scourge and has at the time also defeated Guardsman Lassicar, who 'has personally executed six Jedi and over two dozen Sith Lords', Lord Praven who 'During the Sacking of Coruscant, Lord Praven killed Master Usma--one of the Jedi's most famous duelists' and Bengal Marr, who defeated Ordus Din, the Jedi with the most battle experience in the entire Order.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes, but to what level. Could he hold back Dooku and Savage while force pwning Ventress. I doubt it. The diversion of focus for even a split second against a monster like Dooku will mean certain death.

Dooku is hardly a monster. He is a skilled combatant, but hardly an overwhelming presence. I think Starkiller could possibly do it, yes.

Does the appellation of greatest necessarily mean they were the best fighters or strongest Force users?

When you're assembling a team for a fight, I assume you recruit based upon their fighting capabilities, not their skill at Jedi Opera.

I'm looking for the specific wording now, it might take some time.

Well Braga was renowned for his pacifism and philosophy rather than combat prowess, if I recall correctly.

I only ask because we have ruthlessly questioned that particular adjective in the past.

Which doesn't rule out his abilities, which we learn from his apprentice are formidable. He was specifically going to capture the greatest Sith in the galaxy, he would have chosen the strongest Jed he could, which is backed up by the title screen.

Ah **** it. I can't find it and none of the walkthroughs on youtube show the title screen. If anyone can find it, its the title screen that comes up when you load your character. You should have asked me when I was still on act 2.

I'm not making an argument (indeed, I agree with you), I'm simply pointing out that there have been multi-page debates over that word in the past.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which doesn't rule out his abilities, which we learn from his apprentice are formidable. He was specifically going to capture the greatest Sith in the galaxy, he would have chosen the strongest Jed he could, which is backed up by the title screen.

Ah **** it. I can't find it and none of the walkthroughs on youtube show the title screen. If anyone can find it, its the title screen that comes up when you load your character. You should have asked me when I was still on act 2.

With Grand Master Satele Shan's support, Master Braga assembles a stike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the Order. Their goal is to pinpoint the Emperor's hidden fortress, capture the Sith leader alive, and turn him to the light side. The Jedi did not realize that they have underestimated the true extent of Emperor's power. It is an error that will cost them dearly. (Star Wars The Old Republic Encylopedia; page 88)

🙂

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As far as Satele Shan is concerned, I think she can handle this trio in combat. Count Dooku is the only individual who will giver her challenge. Ventress and Savage are strong in the dark side but they considerably lack in command of the Force.

That isn't the quote I was looking for but it is much appreciated and reinforces the point two-fold.

Originally posted by Nephthys
None of the team is fast enough to really close the gap before Starkiller can unleash his Force Powers. You're also underestimating Starkiller's lightsaber abilities, as per the first games description his skills were 'near perfect', and he was able to outduel Vader and Shaak Ti. Dooku is by no means his vast superior. Starkiller is also adept at using hie Force powers in combat and has in every duel he's been in. In his fight with Shaak Ti he was able to telekinetically block her lightsaber while engaging her.

Dooku certainly is fast enough. If he is fast enough to tango with Yoda, he's more than fast enough to tango with Starkiller. Uhhh I was under the impression that Vader was his superior in sabers and he lost due to Force powers. And Shaak Ti almost killed him.

What if he simply uses a Force Repulse at the start of the fight? That would force the team back or into a defensive position long enough for him to start really bringing his abilities to bare imo.

Sorry, but the Jedi Knight Act II exposition/loading screen claims that Tol Braga's team is made up of the 'greatest Jedi in the galaxy.'

The Hero of Tython was still powerful enough to defeat Lord Scourge and has at the time also defeated Guardsman Lassicar, who 'has personally executed six Jedi and over two dozen Sith Lords', Lord Praven who 'During the Sacking of Coruscant, Lord Praven killed Master Usma--one of the Jedi's most famous duelists' and Bengal Marr, who defeated Ordus Din, the Jedi with the most battle experience in the entire Order.

All the Jedi at the Sacking of Coruscant were the Jedi's B team though. The Jedi's A team was at Alderaan as per canon. That's why the Sith struck Coruscant when they did, remember? Ordus Din is amongst that group, and all of that baseless hype he recieves in game doesn't make up for the fact that he gets his shit wrecked by Darth Angral everytime they meet.

Dooku is hardly a monster. He is a skilled combatant, but hardly an overwhelming presence. I think Starkiller could possibly do it, yes.

You're grossly underestimating Dooku.
"Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground..."
That statement puts Dooku slightly above Windu. He is way more than a skilled combatant, he took down three assassins while drugged and blind. He is confirmed to be>>Maul since he is his replacement.
He's been hyped to have bladework on the level of Yoda, formidable TK. I don't see how he would not give Starkiller a hard time WITHOUT Savage and Ventress, throw in one and he'll likely win, let alone two.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This;

With Grand Master Satele Shan's support, Master Braga assembles a stike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the Order. Their goal is to pinpoint the Emperor's hidden fortress, capture the Sith leader alive, and turn him to the light side. The Jedi did not realize that they have underestimated the true extent of Emperor's power. It is an error that will cost them dearly. (Star Wars The Old Republic Encylopedia; page 88)

🙂

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As far as Satele Shan is concerned, I think she can handle this trio in combat. Count Dooku is the only individual who will giver her challenge. Ventress and Savage are strong in the dark side but they considerably lack in command of the Force.

Count Dooku would solo Satele Shan. Also Braga's team is not the strongest in the Galaxy. This is pretty clear from the fact that A. Only knights are in it. B. Satele Shan who is stated to be the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy isn't in it. C. Jaric Kaedan the man who solo'd the Dread Masters isn't in it.

Those statements "assembled a team of the greatest Jedi" Are pretty weak arguments. Let's not forget that Mace's team was comprised of the most celebrated swordsman in the order. That doesn't magically put them on the level of Kenobi and Skywalker though.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
He is confirmed to be>>Maul since he is his replacement.

I agree with the rest of your post but I'm not sure about this logic. Dooku's replacement was already decided - Skywalker. And Dooku fit Sidious's current plan. So there was just no room for Maul to fit in now.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Those statements "assembled a team of the greatest Jedi" Are pretty weak arguments. Let's not forget that Mace's team was comprised of the most celebrated swordsman in the order. That doesn't magically put them on the level of Kenobi and Skywalker though.

👆

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Dooku certainly is fast enough. If he is fast enough to tango with Yoda, he's more than fast enough to tango with Starkiller. Uhhh I was under the impression that Vader was his superior in sabers and he lost due to Force powers. And Shaak Ti almost killed him.

He is indeed fast enough to tango with him, but I just don't think he's fast enough to close the gap before Starkiller can use his Force powers.

Starkiller overcomes him in lightsaber combat in both the novel and the game. Shaak Ti only did that by putting everything into speed and abandoning defense, practically skewering herself on his lightsaber. And Starkiller still had the reflexes to block her lightsaber just before it went into his eye.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Dooku would likely recover very quickly and engage him before his two peyons could be offed.

This is where this comes down to purely subjective feeling. Theres not really a way we can debate this to be honest.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
A very general term. There are 10,000+ Jedi in the Galaxy. Anywhere in the top 100 would likely be considered amongst the greatest. Those Jedi are featless. And what's more they are not even masters so in all likelihood they aren't even in the top 100.

Well then its lucky that Legends quote backs it up by proclaiming them to also be 'a stike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the Order'. I think being proclaimed as the 'greatest' and 'strongest' Jedi in the Order is sufficient chops not to dismiss their utter curbstomp by Vitiate.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
All the Jedi at the Sacking of Coruscant were the Jedi's B team though. The Jedi's A team was at Alderaan as per canon. That's why the Sith struck Coruscant when they did, remember? Ordus Din is amongst that group, and all of that baseless hype he recieves in game doesn't make up for the fact that he gets his shit wrecked by Darth Angral everytime they meet.

No, I don't remember that. I know some Jedi attended the Alderaan Peace Summit, but not that there was no-one note-worthy on Coruscant at the time. If Praven's bio says that the guy was a notable duelist then thats who he was. Remember that this was during wartime, so its a safe assumption the guy had proven his abilities.

Which only makes Darth Angral look impressive, not Din unimpressive.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You're grossly underestimating Dooku.
"Among the other Jedi, [B]perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground..."
That statement puts Dooku slightly above Windu. He is way more than a skilled combatant, he took down three assassins while drugged and blind. He is confirmed to be>>Maul since he is his replacement.
He's been hyped to have bladework on the level of Yoda, formidable TK. I don't see how he would not give Starkiller a hard time WITHOUT Savage and Ventress, throw in one and he'll likely win, let alone two. [/B]

It does not such thing. It indicates that they are equals. And yes I know that Dooku is a dangerous opponent, but because of his precise bladework, his mastery of the Force and martial prowess. He isn't an overpowering monster as you make him out to be. He relies upon skill and mastery in fights, not power and speed.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
A very general term. There are 10,000+ Jedi in the Galaxy. Anywhere in the top 100 would likely be considered amongst the greatest. Those Jedi are featless. And what's more they are not even masters so in all likelihood they aren't even in the top 100.

Count Dooku would solo Satele Shan.

What does the fact that they're not Masters have to do with anything? Being a Master does not = being more powerful. Of course they have to be powerful, but not necessarily more powerful. Anakin was a Jedi Knight during RotS, and he was already way more powerful than most Jedi Masters in the Order.

And it's hard to tell if Dooku would indeed be able to solo Shan. I doubt it. Dooku's powerful, but Shen was 'the most powerful Jedi' of the ToR era, and considering there were thousands of Jedi, it is a pretty strong statement that should not be turned aside.

I'm picking up what you're laying down, bro, but I think the prevailing assumption is that your average Master is going to be more powerful, more skilled, and more learned in the ways of the Force than your average Knight.

There would obviously be exceptions. I've always concluded Anakin's lack of promotion owes more to his attitude and reputation. On the other hand, Obi-Wan does mention that "power alone is no credit to [him]" when determining who sits on the High Council (which makes sense, given that leadership should be determined by a number of factors unrelated to combat skill). On the [third] hand, I believe The Clone Wars Character Encyclopedia mentions that the Jedi Council consists of the order's most powerful Masters.

Ah, well.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm picking up what you're laying down, bro, but I think the prevailing assumption is that your average Master is going to be more powerful, more skilled, and more learned in the ways of the Force than your average Knight.

There would obviously be exceptions. I've always concluded Anakin's lack of promotion owes more to his attitude and reputation. On the other hand, Obi-Wan does mention that "power alone is no credit to [him]" when determining who sits on the High Council (which makes sense, given that leadership should be determined by a number of factors unrelated to combat skill). On the [third] hand, I believe The Clone Wars Character Encyclopedia mentions that the Jedi Council consists of the order's most powerful Masters.

Ah, well.

Exactly, as you said, your average Master is going to be more powerful, more skilled and more learned.

But, it is said these where the "strongest and most resolute Jedi in the Order". Certainly not your average Knights by any means, which renders Mizukage's argument that they "were not even Masters" pointless.

And I completely agree with you with the rest of what you said.

Right, right, I was just reinforcing the greater point. These guys could very well be exceptions.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
What does the fact that they're not Masters have to do with anything? Being a Master does not = being more powerful. Of course they have to be powerful, but not necessarily more powerful. Anakin was a Jedi Knight during RotS, and he was already way more powerful than most Jedi Masters in the Order.

That's a red herring. Anakin even notes how unusual his situation is. Skywalker also has the feats to back up his claim. You know like putting Count Dooku on his ass multiple times.

And it's hard to tell if Dooku would indeed be able to solo Shan. I doubt it. Dooku's powerful, but Shen was 'the most powerful Jedi' of the ToR era, and considering there were thousands of Jedi, it is a pretty strong statement that should not be turned aside.

^You know the same Yoda who's trained thousands of Jedi, including greats like Mace Windu.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He is indeed fast enough to tango with him, but I just don't think he's fast enough to close the gap before Starkiller can use his Force powers.

Starkiller overcomes him in lightsaber combat in both the novel and the game. Shaak Ti only did that by putting everything into speed and abandoning defense, practically skewering herself on his lightsaber. And Starkiller still had the reflexes to block her lightsaber just before it went into his eye.

This is where this comes down to purely subjective feeling. Theres not really a way we can debate this to be honest.

Well then its lucky that Legends quote backs it up by proclaiming them to also be 'a stike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the Order'. I think being proclaimed as the 'greatest' and 'strongest' Jedi in the Order is sufficient chops not to dismiss their utter curbstomp by Vitiate.

That statement is clearly hyperbole. Unless you consider Tol Braga and his peyons more powerful than the Grand Master of the Jedi order and Jaric Kaedan who brought the dreadmasters to justice.

No, I don't remember that. I know some Jedi attended the Alderaan Peace Summit, but not that there was no-one note-worthy on Coruscant at the time. If Praven's bio says that the guy was a notable duelist then thats who he was. Remember that this was during wartime, so its a safe assumption the guy had proven his abilities.

'Not important enough to go to Alderaan Jedi'
And several other statements make it clear that the Jedi on Coruscant were the B team.

Which only makes Darth Angral look impressive, not Din unimpressive.

Fair.

It does not such thing. It indicates that they are equals. And yes I know that Dooku is a dangerous opponent, but because of his precise bladework, his mastery of the Force and martial prowess. He isn't an overpowering monster as you make him out to be. He relies upon skill and mastery in fights, not power and speed. [/B]

There is no one, no one Jedi or Sith who can tango with the likes of Yoda and Sidious who aren't top tier in speed. Period.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That's a red herring. Anakin even notes how unusual his situation is. Skywalker also has the feats to back up his claim. You know like putting Count Dooku on his ass multiple times.

That's not the point. As Neph pointed out, a lot more is taken into consideration when a Knight is given the rank of Master, not just the individual's power or skill, such as attitude, maturity, self-control, etc.

I bet you can find a lot of Knights who are the exception to the rule of Masters being more powerful, not just Anakin, if you dig a little deeper.

What sort of pitiful, disjointed logic is that. I don't understand why you guys are okay with operating under these unquantifiable statements made in the databooks. Dooku is stated to be top tier by Yoda himself.
"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure."

^You know the same Yoda who's trained thousands of Jedi, including greats like Mace Windu.

So it's pitiful to deduce that since she is the most powerful out of an Order of thousands of Jedi, she has at the very least considerable skill and powers to be reckoned with? Based on what we know of her, she can't be just tossed aside when comparing her with the likes of Dooku or other PT Jedi just because Dooku has feats we know of and she hasn't (as of yet).

And what now? Is Yoda the omniscient narrator? That's purely subjective; a character's point of view. Besides, the term greatest, although indeed suggestive of a certain degree of power, doesn't necessarily mean most powerful.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Count Dooku would solo Satele Shan. 😘

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Also Braga's team is not the strongest in the Galaxy.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
This is pretty clear from the fact that A. Only knights are in it.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
B. Satele Shan who is stated to be the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy isn't in it. C. Jaric Kaedan the man who solo'd the Dread Masters isn't in it.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Those statements "assembled a team of the greatest Jedi" Are pretty weak arguments. Let's not forget that Mace's team was comprised of the most celebrated swordsman in the order. That doesn't magically put them on the level of Kenobi and Skywalker though.

However, this was a very potent strike team. Though Vitiate demonstrated that how good he was, when in good shape. Vitiate is a top-tier Force-wielder in the whole mythos alongside Sidious and Luke.

One of the Sith Order's greatest warriors couldn't solo her whom even Sidious regarded as a role model for Vader to follow and you think that Count would solo her? She became the Grand Jedi Master in an age when prodigiously talented individuals weren't uncommon.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
That's not the point. As Neph pointed out, a lot more is taken into consideration when a Knight is given the rank of Master, not just the individual's power or skill, such as attitude, maturity, self-control, etc.

Clearly, but you also need to note that those situations are extremities and have always been noted. Anakin for example was noted for being on the Council but not being a master. Ki-Adi, similar situation. Both of which were skilled and powerful duelists.

I bet you can find a lot of Knights who are the exception to the rule of Masters being more powerful, not just Anakin, if you dig a little deeper.

Anakin, Ki-Adi Mundi...that's about it. And I'm not just talking about your run of the mill masters. I am talking about Jedi Council masters.

So it's pitiful to deduce that since she is the most powerful out of an Order of thousands of Jedi, she has at the very least considerable skill and powers to be reckoned with? Based on what we know of her, she can't be just tossed aside when comparing her with the likes of Dooku or other PT Jedi just because Dooku has feats we know of and she hasn't (as of yet).

No it's pitiful to deduce that Satele Shan is more powerful than someone who is noted to be one of the most powerful Jedi in history, and went on to become an even more powerful Sith. Yoda trained Jedi for 800 years and puts Dooku as his greatest pupil.

The Dooku underestimation on these boards is obscene. Satele is noted as a prodigy, and compared to Bastilla and Revan in prowess. But never is she stated to be more powerful or even as powerful as the likes of Revan or the Sith Emperor.

And what now? Is Yoda the omniscient narrator? That's purely subjective; a character's point of view. Besides, the term greatest, although indeed suggestive of a certain degree of power, doesn't necessarily mean most powerful.

Selective reading much?
"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure."

Yoda isn't an omniscient narrator, but he's the most powerful and learned Jedi in history. His opinion holds a shit ton greater weight than yours does on matters of power levels. Dooku leaving the order was such a big deal because he was one of the greatest students of the force the Jedi Order had produced in the history of ever.