Palpatine vs Dooku, Savage, and Ventress

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Putting Maul, Dooku, and Cyborg Vader in the same boat is in the means that they were all placeholders.

Yep putting Dooku on the level of someone who is 80% as powerful as the Emperor isn't bad at all. Who knows maybe Dooku's a little higher which could make even more than 80.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Maul because he was merely an assassin,

Well I think it's clear now that he was more than just that.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Being unable to surpass the most powerful Sith Lord in history hardly makes one weak, and definitely doesn't detract from Dooku's hype.

👆

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Recheck the history of Dooku's struggles against Anakin to get my drift here.

Maybe the Chsoen One is just That Good

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dooku may once have been as good as Mace (during his tenure as a Jedi, mind you) but Mace became stronger later on. Heck, Mace (CW) is regarded as a Champion of the Order; an accolade similar to that of Revan. And Dooku was never stated to be a match for Yoda. He wasn't either.

Dooku also became more powerful after he left the order. Yoda in the CW still seems to think Dooku would still have the edge over Mace.

And neither Mace or Dooku are Yoda's equal.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Here;

More lightning poured forth from Dooku's hand, but Yoda continued to catch it and turn it, and seemed to become even more settled in his defensive posture.

"Much to learn you still have," Yoda remarked.

Dooku disengaged the futile lightning assault. "It is obvious this contest will not be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsaber."

Yoda reverently drew out his lightsaber, its green blade humming to
life. (AOTC Novelization)

What do you make of this?

You missed out the part right before this where it says Yoda was catching his Lightning "Far from Easily.."

Also the end of the duel has Yoda described as being "Exhausted."

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Maybe the Chsoen One is just That Good

If Dooku would have been young, he may have done better.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dooku also became more powerful after he left the order. Yoda in the CW still seems to think Dooku would still have the edge over Mace.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And neither Mace or Dooku are Yoda's equal.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You missed out the part right before this where it says Yoda was catching his Lightning "Far from Easily.."

Keep in mind that Dooku's FL abilities aren't elite by current Star Wars standards. So this example, on one end, indicates that Yoda (regardless of his power) have realistic limitations in some aspects, and on the other end, indicates that Dooku is Yoda's inferior.

This is one reaon which have led me to believe that Dooku will be annihilated in the contest of Force powers against super strong individuals of the past.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also the end of the duel has Yoda described as being "Exhausted."

Yoda's Ataru is also very intensive and tiring to use and Yoda ain't no spring chicken.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yoda's Ataru is also very intensive and tiring to use and Yoda ain't no spring chicken.

Yes, I too have read somewhere that Ataru is very exhausting dueling Form.

It's in the Jedi Path. Ataru relies upon overwhelming an opponent quickly before you exhaust yourself from the effort involved.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anakin is young and he is growing in power. In contrast, Dooku have reached his limitations due to aging.

If Dooku would have been young, he may have done better.

I'm not sure why you think this when we are told Dooku was more powerful as a Sith than he ever was as a Jedi.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He became more powerful due to dark side practices. His performance in Geonosis indicates this much. But then these practices started taking toll on him as apparent from the events in CW.

So what are you saying? That AOTC Dooku > ROTS Dooku?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is subjective reasoning; Mace beat Sidious. What more proof do we need?

He beat him in a close quarters Saber duel. Yoda lost to a Sidious who was taking advantage of a more open environment and really letting loose with all his Force powers.

And pretty much every source has Yoda as the top dog. Not Mace. Mace was 2nd.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yoda was initially stressed but he became comfortable.

True but the initial stress still says something considering the distance Dooku was firing from.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
indicates that Dooku is Yoda's inferior.

Of course. But so is Mace.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He was exhausted by the crane feat. It was very heavy.

Speculative. Bear in mind Yoda came into that fight fresh. Whilst Dooku had 2 fights just prior.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Dooku had his chance earlier as well but couldn't. Later on, given the setting, Ventress did the right thing by giving space and increasing her effectiveness with acrobatics to prevent Count from overpowering her easily which forced the Count to use his powers to subdue her eventually. In both examples cited by me, Dooku struggled to overcome acrobatic opponents with his martial abilities. Now keep in mind that Satele packed such strength that at one point she held Malgus at bay with single hand and used the other to rip a gigantic tree apart from its foundation simultaneously to break up the clash between her and him. The dynamics of combat between Satele and Malgus are different from that of a hypothetical combat between her and Dooku.

Covered above! While I don't disagree that Dooku got the better of her but he struggled to keep her under check when the opponent employed acrobatics as a counter to his effectiveness with his blade. Given the hype Count gets for his martial abilities from fans, I find him resorting to his Force powers in this duel to subdue his opponent amusing. You have to admit that acrobatics do concern him. In contrast to Ventress, Satele is on a whole new level.

He beat her quite comfortable and quickly. And even in that short fight she was being forced back the entire time.

The only time he struggled is when he was up against 2 Opponents. But even then the official site confirms he was too powerful for their combined efforts.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
State of mind...and is there a difference?

Well you keep talking about how we should act in a BD when we're not in a Battledrome. I'm not going to dismiss Yoda's showing against Dooku on the merits of 'SOM.' And I'm not going to put feats over canon statements because that's how we play 'in the battledrome.' In this forum, statements from canonical sources have as much sway as feats. Only by being mindful of both can we come to a informed opinion.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It's obscure because we don't know how powerful they are in comparison to others. We can accept them showing feats. Like Vandar Tokare has hype from TOR encyclopedia too, as does every other Council member and their mom. But that doesn't mean I'd rate him higher than say, Satele Shan. In the battledome feats>Hype.
And it's hardly unprecedented, Kreia force pwned 3 of the most powerful KOTOR masters instantly.
We don't know how powerful those guys were, so it's unquantifiable. And using them as feats for Vitiate in the BD, can be dismissed under the grounds of it being a no limits fallacy.

No, we can't use them in threads, we can't compare them to other combatants or anything, but we can accept that they were powerful members of the Order. If a quote says they were the strongest Jedi in the Order.... you can't just ignore that, can you? Thats kind of a statement about how they compare to others in and of itself.

Yes and you better believe that's an incredibly powerful display. It demonstrates effectively the power of the attack and its a pretty great statement about the unblockable nature of it.

We do know how powerful they are. They are, canonically 'the most powerful, strongest and most resolute members of the Order.' Also lolwut? How it in any way a no limits fallacy? They don't have unlimited power, duh, they're just the most powerful members of the Order.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And Dooku can do the same, as can Ventress and Opress.

What, levitate while attacking? Somehow I doubt that.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That's great and all, but canon states Vader got weaker after Mustafar. It's a non-negotiable. Vader is wanked pretty hard here, and Dooku is downplayed a ton.

B-but his feats are superior! And feats >>>>> hype, right? Lol. Anyway, no it says that he never reached his true potential, it says his growth was stymied, it says whatever. Even though he was diminished after Mustafar, that doesn't mean that he can't pick himself back up and improve, as he does in Rise of Darth Vader.

Do you think Anakin could have given Starkiller that much of a fight?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Fair, but Vader's strength isn't really in saber mastery.

He still has all his lightsaber skills from his time as Anakin. He's still impressive in his lightsaber prowess. Plus everything else I mentioned.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
SOM is rarely a point in BD discussions.

I don't.... care?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Because TFU was made so we could get absurd force feats, same with TCW. Yoda can be powerscaled to Sidious who Galen is no match for.

Galen was no match for OT Sidious, who at this time has scoured the galaxy for dark side knowledge and has undoubtably become more powerful than the Sidious Yoda fought.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Allow me to retort.
"My strengths lie in observation, subtlety and negotiation. Not exactly welcome talents on the battlefield."-Warren Sedoru
Leeha Narezz also has no such hype sans that statement. Also the quote saying a team of the most powerful does not necessarily mean every single member of that team is the most powerful. One of the Hero of Tython's companions has to be present; hardly the strongest in the order.

That doesn't mean that he was not also a very proficient warrior.

She was known as the warrior who 'never knew defeat.' The Heroes companions aren't on the strike team.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Furthermore, Satele Shan is stated, in TOR: Fatal Alliance to be the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy and the Emperor's most hated foe. Someone who would surely be a part of this team of the strongest, most resolute Jedi in the order.

Conclusion: SOME of these people were the strongest in the order and combined they formed a formidable force. But nothing unprecedented like you seem to imply.

As I said, Satale can be considered exempt since she was offered a place. And if there is a quote saying that then its possible it overrides the other ones. Even if it is a year before the strike team was assembled, and when the Hero returns to the Order Satale doesn't herself identify them as the Order greatest champion.

No. The conclusion is that they are undoubtedly some of the strongest, most powerful members. I'm not saying that all of them are more powerful than Satale or something necessarily, but we CANNOT disregard their defeat or regard them as 'fodder' in the face of the evidence that they are a team made up, again, of the 'most powerful, strongest and most resolute Jedi in the Order.' They are undoubtedly some of the greatest Jedi in the Order. Defeating such a team with just Force Lightning, aka through sheer power, is unprecedented and you will acknowledge it as such.

How I see it is as if Sidious overpowered Mace Windu, Anakin, Plo Koon and Ki Adi Mundi at the same time. Now certain people might try to handwave it away by going 'oh of course Ki Adi Mundi and Plo Koon are below Sidious' and 'oh Anakin wasn't as powerful then' or something but to overpower them all at the same time is incredible. It has never been done before.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes that's my point. There were dozens of Jedi who are powerful who just could not because they had other matters to attend to. the Barsen'thor for example was busy with keeping the Republic in one piece.
Lol wut. No curing a plague and shielding thousands of Jedi Masters from death is hardly just 'curing space AIDS'
"There's a title reserved for the most prestigious among us, whose wisdom and skill safeguard the galaxy. It hasn't been bestowed in thousands of years."

Wisdom and skill. Not strength or power. How much combat strength was needed to cure this plague? How much strength in the Force was required to shield these Masters?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
List them again please.

No. The threads only a few pages long, just flick through it.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Right so he wasn't famous before.

He was clearly still powerful though. He didn't become impressive only after he performed those feats. He was powerful and skilled enough before the Sith arrived obviously.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Completely unsupported. He's never been shown to do this casually to any force user on the level of Savage or Ventress. That's a pretty bold assumption you are making.

He killed an AT-AT and everyone in it. Do you think Savage can tank lightning than a ****ing AT-AT? 😬

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's in the Jedi Path. Ataru relies upon overwhelming an opponent quickly before you exhaust yourself from the effort involved.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm not sure why you think this when we are told Dooku was more powerful as a Sith than he ever was as a Jedi.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So what are you saying? That AOTC Dooku > ROTS Dooku?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He beat him in a close quarters Saber duel. Yoda lost to a Sidious who was taking advantage of a more open environment and really letting loose with all his Force powers.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And pretty much every source has Yoda as the top dog. Not Mace. Mace was 2nd.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
True but the initial stress still says something considering the distance Dooku was firing from.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course. But so is Mace.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Speculative. Bear in mind Yoda came into that fight fresh. Whilst Dooku had 2 fights just prior.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He beat her quite comfortable and quickly. And even in that short fight she was being forced back the entire time.

The only time he struggled is when he was up against 2 Opponents. But even then the official site confirms he was too powerful for their combined efforts.

In contrast, you can see how Sidious performed against the brothers. Such is the difference.

More importantly, Satele is on a whole new level in comparison to Asajj and Savage which is the more important part.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

See my responses in page 5 in which I have evaluated Dooku. It is exhaustive to repeat same assertions again and again.

Seems to be the case.

I've been through your responses and they're all very speculative. Whilst the ROTS Novel makes it clear Old Sith Dooku is more powerful than young Jedi Dooku ever was.

Age isn't an issue. It didn't stop him stomping all those younger Jedi/Sith - Kenobi, Ventress, Opress.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are talking about which fight?

Mace's fight with Sidious compared to Yoda's. The context of those fights were very different.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yoda might be more powerful or his command of the Force may have been greater but Mace is relatively more effective duelist due to his brute strength, Vaapad and shatterpoint abilities.

Yoda's more powerful in the Force and he's the better Saber duelist.

He's mastered every form, and he's just outright faster and more powerful than Mace. His Saber defenses described in the AOTC novel were pretty flawless and seemed impossible to get through.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Asajj and Savage which is the more important part.

I think you underestimate how good these 2 are. They can take almost all the Jedi Council in a one on one. Including the "Celebrated" Swordsmen.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I've been through your responses and they're all very speculative.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Whilst the ROTS Novel makes it clear Old Sith Dooku is more powerful than young Jedi Dooku ever was.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Age isn't an issue. It didn't stop him stomping all those younger Jedi/Sith - Kenobi, Ventress, Opress.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mace's fight with Sidious compared to Yoda's. The context of those fights were very different.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yoda's more powerful in the Force and he's the better Saber duelist.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He's mastered every form, and he's just outright faster and more powerful than Mace. His Saber defenses described in the AOTC novel were pretty flawless and seemed impossible to get through.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think you underestimate how good these 2 are. They can take almost all the Jedi Council in a one on one. Including the "Celebrated" Swordsmen.

Ever seen Savage or Asajj in the position to hold an overwhelmingly strong duelist with one hand at bay and then simultaneously use the other hand to perform a tedious feat with the Force to shift the tide of the battle during the heat of combat? I don't think so.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He killed an AT-AT and everyone in it. Do you think Savage can tank lightning than a ****ing AT-AT? 😬

Not feat-to-feat, no. But I'm sympathetic to Arhael and Mizukage's powerscaling arguments. I think it's readily apparent that Force lightning is not treated the same as it is in a Karpyshyn novel.

I'm against ignoring a feat just because I dislike how powerful it is myself. Especially when the guy has been bringing up Yoda's CWC feats himself.

Also it wasn't from a Karpyshan novel but I get what you meant. Do you feel the same way about Galen's other absurd feats from the novels?

Absolutely. Feat-to-feat, Starkiller wastes juggernauts like Bane and Dooku and Vitiate with contemptuous ease. Sidious himself, too, if we didn't know from other sources that Palpatine is more powerful.

I mean, ultimately it doesn't really change anything for me either way. Sidious, by virtue of his infinitely greater importance and exposure, dominates no matter how you slice it.

But I really don't think Marek would curbstomp Vitiate despite having the feats to so so.

And for the record, I also agree that the micro series feats are as incongruous as a Karpyshyn novel.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My assertions are not speculative but based on proper assessment of his situation. Remember that characters grow and change with passage of time. Continue to read below.

Not really. Your arguing because Opress and Ventress together were a challenge to Dooku that he must somehow being suffering from his age.

Opress in the same episode took on both Skywalker and Kenobi and seemed to actually have the edge. Ventress 2 episodes earlier also went toe to toe with both Skywalker and Kenobi.

So clearly being more than a match for both Opress and Ventress is not a sign of old age or degrading power at all.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Now this is an example of a shortsighted assessment. ROTS novelization did implied that Dooku emerged stronger as a Sith Lord but now we have update from the Clone Wars cartoons which depict his decline and rise of his opponents. I have offered sufficient hints and reasoning in this aspect which strengthens my stand in this regard. It is futile excercise to argue against latest canonical developments. Star Wars is now much more complex in its scope then it was back in the days of ROTS novelization. In those days, many questions were unanswered and exhaustive debates took place. But now it is easy to figure out the ground realities of complex issues on the basis of new information.

I actually agree with this. That the newer canon should take priority to old quotes which I was actually just recently arguing.

But where I disagree is that the new show shows Dooku getting weaker. It shows no such thing Imo.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is an over-simplified and misleading explanation of his performances. He have defeated all of them but then a time eventually came that one of them defeated him. Of course, Dooku's great command of the Force and martial abilities granted him edge over his younger opponents for a decent while but a time eventually came when his limitations became more apparent; he went from giving Yoda trouble to getting chopped by Anakin. Are you trying to imply that Anakin at this point was a match for Yoda or possibly better? Not at all. Dark side practices accelerate aging process and their comes a time when the practitioner becomes a mere shadow of his formerself. This is apparent from the examples of Xedrix and Bane and possibly more individuals. Dooku hadn't exactly reached breaking point at the end of CW but he was getting close.

So basically your whole argument seems to be that because Skywalker gave Dooku trouble that Dooku must somehow be getting weaker. Skywalker was not even easy pickings in the CW movie which is supposed to take place very shortly after AOTC. So are you really suggesting that Dooku suddenly became weaker right after AOTC?

No the more logical explanation is that Skywalker was the one rapidly growing in power. Your issue is that you can not imagine Skywalker going toe to toe with Yoda or Mace in pure Lightsaber combat. In fact you find this so hard to imagine that you've already decided that's a fact.

Well the only fact is that we can not presume anything in that regard since Skywalker has never fought Mace or Yoda.
In fact we can not even presume Kenobi is so far below them in pure Saber combat for that matter as he is also rapidly improving during the CW.
In fact the Newer Canon has shown him portraying a very similar Saber performance to Sidious against the exact same opponents with the same number of weapons.

And whatever newer canon shows the movies will always remain the highest form of canon, which shows Dooku in ROTS battling both Kenobi and Skywalker in their prime, parrying BOTH their strikes with ONE hand, then smacking Skywalker against the wall whilst simultaneously Force choking Kenobi with absolute ease.

Doesn't really seem to me like age was getting the better of him at all.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You have a point here but keep in mind that Sidious also wasted opportunity to kill Yoda early on. He paid for his overconfidence.

What that shows is that Sidious went all out with his Force powers right from the beginning of his fight with Yoda. Something he didn't do against Mace.

Mace had back up at the beginning of the fight which force Sidious to get into a close up fight with them which stayed confined to quite a narrow space.

So yeah. Very different circumstances.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Debatable.

Not really. It was always Lucas's intent for Yoda to be no.1 and Mace no.2. Newer canon hasn't suggested otherwise at all.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Ever seen Savage or Asajj in the position to hold an overwhelmingly strong duelist with one hand at bay and then simultaneously use the other hand to perform a tedious feat with the Force to shift the tide of the battle during the heat of combat? I don't think so.

No. But I've seen Dooku do that quite casually in ROTS.

Oh and I have seen Savage fight off a whoel load of Destroyer droids surrounding him, and then use a Force wave that put down all those droids plus 2 pretty powerful Jedi.

And I've seen Asajj fight off the same Jedi and when she was cornered Force choke them both.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm against ignoring a feat just because I dislike how powerful it is myself. Especially when the guy has been bringing up Yoda's CWC feats himself.

Also it wasn't from a Karpyshan novel but I get what you meant. Do you feel the same way about Galen's other absurd feats from the novels?

I am bringing up CWC feats because of people blatantly ignoring logical powerscaling. Based on feats Galen Marek should have been more than capable of shitstomping Vader, and even Sidious.

In TFU I, Rahm Kota casually rips a piece of a space station off and sends it into the atmosphere. The same Kota who is ruthlessly and easily disposed of by Vader.

When Starkiller doesn't believe he can move the Star Destroyer Kota says something akin to 'You're a Jedi, size doesn't matter.'

I do not doubt that in TFU/ CWC depictions Yoda, Mace and Dooku would also be able to replicate many of Marek's feats. Espcially considering he seems to be on the same level of Vader. He doesn't really seem to ever totally outclass him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not really. Your arguing because Opress and Ventress together were a challenge to Dooku that he must somehow being suffering from his age.

Geonosis: Dooku defeats Anakin
Tatooine: Stalemate
Naboo: Dooku subdues Anakin with help of MagnaGuards
Tythe: Dooku retreats
Invisible Hand: Anakin defeats Dooku

It is obvious that Anakin is growing in power with passage of time but should we assume that Dooku is somehow immune to the negative fallout of the dark side practices? Dooku was already very old when he left the Jedi Order. Their was only so much he could in his 80s.

Sidious was in search of a young apprentice for multiple reasons.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Opress in the same episode took on both Skywalker and Kenobi and seemed to actually have the edge. Ventress 2 episodes earlier also went toe to toe with both Skywalker and Kenobi.

So clearly being more than a match for both Opress and Ventress is not a sign of old age or degrading power at all.

Dooku handled the duo of Savage and Opress on the basis of his much greater command of the Force and experience. He was also a formidable duelist so all of these factors helped him. But focus on the dynamics of this duel; Dooku kept Savage at bay with his FL abilities and when Savage went all out on him, Dooku fled the place. Savage packed much greater brute strength then Asajj so it is obvious that she couldn't replicate his performance. However, Savage lacked in command of the dark side and formal training and he couldn't defeat Dooku during this time due to these shortcomings. Still he send him to retreat which is a big feat for him. Asajj was also doing fine until she got trapped in the narrow corridors and Dooku subdued her with his Force powers. Now keep in mind that this is the same guy who held his own against Yoda some years ago in Geonosis and here he found himself struggling against opponents who weren't in his league during this time.

Now would you say that Yoda will struggle against Savage and Asajj? Or would rather assume that Dooku is showing signs of aging?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I actually agree with this. That the newer canon should take priority to old quotes which I was actually just recently arguing.

But where I disagree is that the new show shows Dooku getting weaker. It shows no such thing Imo.

Also, even in real life, significant decline in physical well-being of a person at old age can happen within a span of 2 to 3 years.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So basically your whole argument seems to be that because Skywalker gave Dooku trouble that Dooku must somehow be getting weaker. Skywalker was not even easy pickings in the CW movie which is supposed to take place very shortly after AOTC. So are you really suggesting that Dooku suddenly became weaker right after AOTC?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No the more logical explanation is that Skywalker was the one rapidly growing in power. Your issue is that you can not imagine Skywalker going toe to toe with Yoda or Mace in pure Lightsaber combat. In fact you find this so hard to imagine that you've already decided that's a fact.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well the only fact is that we can not presume anything in that regard since Skywalker has never fought Mace or Yoda.

When the time came to confront both the Sith Master and his Apprentice; Yoda adviced Obi-Wan to confront Anakin by explicitly telling him that he is not powerful enough to handle Sidious and himself went to face the Sith Master.

How can you overlook this very significant hint?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In fact we can not even presume Kenobi is so far below them in pure Saber combat for that matter as he is also rapidly improving during the CW.
In fact the Newer Canon has shown him portraying a very similar Saber performance to Sidious against the exact same opponents with the same number of weapons.

In pure bladework, Obi-Wan could be possibly as good as Yoda and/or Mace but he lacks in command of the Force to hang with them in an actual fight. This is why Yoda advices him to not confront Sidious.

Obi-Wan wasn't on par with Sidious in combat prowess during the Clone Wars due to his much lower command of the Force.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And whatever newer canon shows the movies will always remain the highest form of canon, which shows Dooku in ROTS battling both Kenobi and Skywalker in their prime, parrying BOTH their strikes with ONE hand, then smacking Skywalker against the wall whilst simultaneously Force choking Kenobi with absolute ease.

Doesn't really seem to me like age was getting the better of him at all.

Plan was to lure Anakin to the dark side; So Dooku didn't knock him out with his Force powers like he did to Obi-Wan. Instead he confronted Anakin on the latter's strong point and lost. He ended up exhausting his Force-reserves much quicker in this manner because he wasn't in his youth or prime condition.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What that shows is that Sidious went all out with his Force powers right from the beginning of his fight with Yoda. Something he didn't do against Mace.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mace had back up at the beginning of the fight which force Sidious to get into a close up fight with them which stayed confined to quite a narrow space.

So yeah. Very different circumstances.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not really. It was always Lucas's intent for Yoda to be no.1 and Mace no.2. Newer canon hasn't suggested otherwise at all.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No. But I've seen Dooku do that quite casually in ROTS.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh and I have seen Savage fight off a whoel load of Destroyer droids surrounding him, and then use a Force wave that put down all those droids plus 2 pretty powerful Jedi.

And I've seen Asajj fight off the same Jedi and when she was cornered Force choke them both.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is an assessment based on all of his performances throughout. Specially focus upon Dooku's history with Anakin.

Geonosis: Dooku defeats Anakin
Tatooine: Stalemate
Naboo: Dooku subdues Anakin with help of MagnaGuards
Tythe: Dooku retreats
Invisible Hand: Anakin defeats Dooku

It is obvious that Anakin is growing in power with passage of time but should we assume that Dooku is somehow immune to the negative fallout of the dark side practices? Dooku was already very old when he left the Jedi Order. Their was only so much he could in his 80s.

Sidious was in search of a young apprentice for multiple reasons.

You've noted yourself that Anakin is growing in power. That in itself explains that. So we don't need to assume anything about Dooku getting weaker. It makes perfect sense as it is.

The fact that Dooku actually performed better in ROTS (for a while) than he did on other occasions against Anakin actually prove he wasn't getting weaker.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dynamics of each battle are different; Savage and Ventress are young individuals and it doesn't surprises me if they have fought the duo of Anakin and Obi-Wan and vice versa on multiple occasions.

Dooku handled the duo of Savage and Opress on the basis of his much greater command of the Force and experience.

It's strange your saying this, because below you were just telling me that Saber Prowess and Command of the Force go hand in hand.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Now would you say that Yoda will struggle against Savage and Asajj? Or would rather assume that Dooku is showing signs of aging?

Well no, because Yoda's too fast for them and they can't handle his command of the Force. Dooku was fast enough and strong enough in the Force to go toe to toe with Yoda. But those 2 are not.

On the other hand those 2 are fast enough and strong enough to combine their efforts and give Dooku trouble. Though it is confirmed that he was still their superior.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is strange! You accept the logic behind my assertion but not the assertion itself?

Because the logic of newer canon taking preference over old quotes is fair enough. That doesn't make your interpretation of the CW events as canon though.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is obvious from the developments during the Clone Wars that Dooku is getting past his prime condition.

It really isn't. Let's see, when he's drugged and blind he fights off Ventress and 2 Nightsisters. Then blasts them all with Force Lightning ftw.

He easily toys with Opress in their training session. Easily lifts Multiple stone pillars and keeps them levitated without any apparent strain.

He bests Ventress and Opress one on one in close quarter combat. He only takes a few seconds to batter Ventress (after a long fight against 2 opponents).

He fends off all of an enraged Skywalker's full on blows one handed fighting defensively. He actually bests him with his Force Lightning.

Then it comes to the end of the Clone Wars and before Anakin gets enraged he actually tools Prime Kenobi and Skywalker together!

So you need to stop assuming he's got so weak just because some handbook says that the Dark side takes a toll. Maybe it hadn't taken a toll on him yet.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anakin wouldn't be as powerful as Mace and Yoda during the events of ROTS. Mace and Yoda were much older and more learned in the ways of the Force then Anakin.

So was Dooku.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is unwise to assume that Anakin in just few years matched or exceeded Yoda and Mace in skill and power.

Would have been unwise to think he surpassed Dooku before watching ROTS. But he did.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also, their is no such thing as pure lightsaber combat; power/command of the Force always complement martial abilities.

You specifically distinguished the 2 when noting his fight against Opress and Ventress.

There is clear evidence throughout the Mythos to show using the Force in Lightsaber combat and using it in the form of TK and/or FL are 2 completely different talents.

Skywalker never matched Dooku in TK, but he clearly surpassed him in Saber combat.

Mace beat Sidious in Saber combat but clearly wasn't his equal in Force powers.

Then there's people like Galen Marek who obviously are not as talented in Saber combat as they are in TK and FL.

There's too many examples to just ignore this. Plus Dooku specifically makes the distinction in AOTC.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
ROTS movie offers sufficient hint;

When the time came to confront both the Sith Master and his Apprentice; Yoda adviced Obi-Wan to confront Anakin by explicitly telling him that he is not powerful enough to handle Sidious and himself went to face the Sith Master.

How can you overlook this very significant hint?

Which really mean nothing. Because Kenobi also wasn't powerful enough to fight Count Dooku and yet Skywalker defeated him. How can you forget that?

Also you don't hold much weight to Yoda's assessment of Dooku's abilities, but suddenly think he can say no wrong when assessing Kenobi's??

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He had learned something from his previous duel with Mace perhaps. But still made a miscalculation. He even attempted to run away after enduring a Force push but Yoda blocked his path.

And yet he never tried to run from Mace Windu.. Hmmm

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Are you implying that Sidious couldn't use FL or FP in this setting? Or Mace couldn't use his Jedi powers in this setting?

Well there was 4 of them. They all had Sabers to block his Lightning.

Sidious had to blitz them in Sabers to stand a chance. And what do you think Mace's TK would do to Sidious?