Palpatine vs Dooku, Savage, and Ventress

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I am bringing up CWC feats because of people blatantly ignoring logical powerscaling. Based on feats Galen Marek should have been more than capable of shitstomping Vader, and even Sidious.

In TFU I, Rahm Kota casually rips a piece of a space station off and sends it into the atmosphere. The same Kota who is ruthlessly and easily disposed of by Vader.

When Starkiller doesn't believe he can move the Star Destroyer Kota says something akin to 'You're a Jedi, size doesn't matter.'

I do not doubt that in TFU/ CWC depictions Yoda, Mace and Dooku would also be able to replicate many of Marek's feats. Espcially considering he seems to be on the same level of Vader. He doesn't really seem to ever totally outclass him.

👆

For those who assume that Marek trumps Vitiate in the context of feats; bad example.

Their are Dark Councilers who easily outgun Marek in command of the Force. Darth Jadus, as an example, saves his 600m long Dreadnought (Dominator) from disintegration in the space with his power in the Force, if the story pans out in this manner depending upon the choices of the player.

And while Imperial Intelligence argues that Darth Jadus is second to the Emperor in power; another source argues that Darth Marr is the most powerful Dark Counciler during the era of Satele Shan.

Therefore, it is foolish to underestimate Vitiate's powers. Even in the combat performance, Vitiate trumps Marek badly. In a hypothetical clash between these two characters, Marek stands no chance.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
For those who assume that Marek trumps Vitiate in the context of feats; bad example.

In feats Marek trumps virtually everyone. But anyone who actually believes Vitiate is inferior to Marek is a fool.

Their are Dark Councilers who easily outgun Marek in command of the Force. Darth Jadus, as an example, saves his 600m long Dreadnought (Dominator) from disintegration in the space with his power in the Force, if the story pans out in this manner depending upon the choices of the player.

That's true, do we see the context on how he prevented it though?

And while Imperial Intelligence argues that Darth Jadus is second to the Emperor in power; another source argues that Darth Marr is the most powerful Dark Counciler during the era of Satele Shan.

I'd believe it. Especially after the second war, he has the largest sphere of influence, with Baras and Decimus dead he has complete control over the military.

Therefore, it is foolish to underestimate Vitiate's powers. Even in the combat performance, Vitiate trumps Marek badly. In a hypothetical clash between these two characters, Marek stands no chance.

The gap between him and Marek are there. I do believe Sidious and Vitiate are fairly close in force powers.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You've noted yourself that Anakin is growing in power. That in itself explains that. So we don't need to assume anything about Dooku getting weaker. It makes perfect sense as it is.

The fact that Dooku actually performed better in ROTS (for a while) than he did on other occasions against Anakin actually prove he wasn't getting weaker.

During a Clone Wars episode in which Dooku is captured by pirates: http://starwars.com/explore/the-clone-wars/ep111/#

-Anakin and Obi-Wan muse about the aging of Dooku.

Big hint from the authors.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's strange your saying this, because below you were just telling me that Saber Prowess and Command of the Force go hand in hand.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well no, because Yoda's too fast for them and they can't handle his command of the Force. Dooku was fast enough and strong enough in the Force to go toe to toe with Yoda. But those 2 are not.

On the other hand those 2 are fast enough and strong enough to combine their efforts and give Dooku trouble. Though it is confirmed that he was still their superior.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Because the logic of newer canon taking preference over old quotes is fair enough. That doesn't make your interpretation of the CW events as canon though.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It really isn't. Let's see, when he's drugged and blind he fights off Ventress and 2 Nightsisters. Then blasts them all with Force Lightning ftw.

He easily toys with Opress in their training session. Easily lifts Multiple stone pillars and keeps them levitated without any apparent strain.

He bests Ventress and Opress one on one in close quarter combat. He only takes a few seconds to batter Ventress (after a long fight against 2 opponents).

He fends off all of an enraged Skywalker's full on blows one handed fighting defensively. He actually bests him with his Force Lightning.

Then it comes to the end of the Clone Wars and before Anakin gets enraged he actually tools Prime Kenobi and Skywalker together!

So you need to stop assuming he's got so weak just because some handbook says that the Dark side takes a toll. Maybe it hadn't taken a toll on him yet.

About the points you made:

1. I never said that Dooku's powers have become ineffective.

2. I have seen this footage. Once again! I don't understand that how this example helps your case or counters my assertion? That same Savage later on gives Dooku serious trouble. Think.

3. He subdues Asajj with his Force powers to quickly end the fight. This is the difference.

4. He stills relies on his MagnaGuards to assist him in this fight (the one of Naboo, correct?) and the distraction they afford him grants him the opportunity to use his FL on Anakin to subdue him.

5. He works according to the plan; which is to incapacitate Obi-Wan and create the circumstances to lure the Anakin to the dark side. It is obvious that Dooku could handle both with his Force powers (his turf) but he made a grave miscalculation; he wasn't in the positon to fight Anakin and Obi-Wan with his martial skills during this time. Those days were gone by now.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So was Dooku.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Would have been unwise to think he surpassed Dooku before watching ROTS. But he did.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You specifically distinguished the 2 when noting his fight against Opress and Ventress.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
There is clear evidence throughout the Mythos to show using the Force in Lightsaber combat and using it in the form of TK and/or FL are 2 completely different talents.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Skywalker never matched Dooku in TK, but he clearly surpassed him in Saber combat.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mace beat Sidious in Saber combat but clearly wasn't his equal in Force powers.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Then there's people like Galen Marek who obviously are not as talented in Saber combat as they are in TK and FL.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
There's too many examples to just ignore this. Plus Dooku specifically makes the distinction in AOTC.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Which really mean nothing. Because Kenobi also wasn't powerful enough to fight Count Dooku and yet Skywalker defeated him. How can you forget that?

This point is intended to counter your assertion that Kenobi can somehow contend with Sidious. He cannot.

If Kenobi handled the brothers simultaneously, this was his turf. He was a Jedi Knight and his martial abilities had to be excellent.

Sidious was also competent in martial aspect but his incredible command of the Force made him an overwhelming opponent. This is who he outgunned 3 celebrated swordsmen with ease and also defeated the brothers. Only exceptionally powerful Jedi Knights and/or Jedi Consulars could challenge him. Mace fit the bill as an exceptionally powerful Jedi Knight while Yoda fit the bill as an exceptionally powerful Jedi Consular.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also you don't hold much weight to Yoda's assessment of Dooku's abilities, but suddenly think he can say no wrong when assessing Kenobi's??

It would be expected of Yoda to know where Obi-Wan stands in the big picture in power and skill; you think that Yoda didn't knew that Obi-Wan failed against Dooku several times? So would Yoda be misguiding him in the context of Sidious?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yet he never tried to run from Mace Windu.. Hmmm

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well there was 4 of them. They all had Sabers to block his Lightning.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Sidious had to blitz them in Sabers to stand a chance. And what do you think Mace's TK would do to Sidious?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
In feats Marek trumps virtually everyone. But anyone who actually believes Vitiate is inferior to Marek is a fool.

Vitiate will put Marek out of comission without much effort. Heck, Marek would end up getting mind dominated easily.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That's true, do we see the context on how he prevented it though?

Insane!!! Absolutely insane.

The player is then sent to the ship and he have the choice to either join Darth Jadus or die, if I recall correctly.

Heck, this Sith Lord can instill pain and terror in to many individuals around him by his mere presence. He is also extremely proficient in the use of FL and such.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I'd believe it. Especially after the second war, he has the largest sphere of influence, with Baras and Decimus dead he has complete control over the military.

Darth Marr is a "master of the dark side" and incredibly skilled in the arts of lightsaber combat as per SWTORE.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The gap between him and Marek are there. I do believe Sidious and Vitiate are fairly close in force powers.

------

@ Mizukage Yoda

You are correct about Barsen'thor. This Jedi is insanely powerful. She contends with threats that most will fail at.

One of the companions of this Jedi, Nadia Grell is also very powerful.

More about Darth Marr:

Tales spread through the Republic of the masked Dark Council member who routed whole armies and deflected assaults more thoroughly than any planetary shield. (SWTORE)

😑

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't think so. Dooku's struggles in single combat during the Clone Wars indicate that he his getting past his prime age. To assume otherwise would give the impression that other individuals are becoming strong enough to handle Yoda.

During a Clone Wars episode in which Dooku is captured by pirates: http://starwars.com/explore/the-clone-wars/ep111/#

-Anakin and Obi-Wan muse about the aging of Dooku.

Big hint from the authors.

I see nothing here that contradicts my point.

That was just a joke. It wasn't a hint. Dooku replies "I would kill you both now if I didn't have to drag your bodies." Was that another hint that Dooku is stronger than both these youngsters? No.

Forget hints and let's stick to facts.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This really makes no sense. Savage is fast enough to duel with Obi-Wan and Anakin simultaneously. Asajj is also fast enough to do the same. Heck, Asajj and Savage have traded lightsaber blows with Dooku on individual basis. So how come you are assuming that these individuals would't be able to duel Yoda singlehandedly? Something doesn't adds up well here; wait! It is your assumption that Dooku is perfectly fine regardless of his dark side practices and extreme age. Make your choice.

Being faster doesn't automatically mean speed blitz.

Clearly Dooku was faster than Opress which he showed when he kept dodging and evading all his strikes.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Did I said that Dooku's power have diminished by the end of Clone Wars? Nope. So your statements do not add up or that you are unable to follow my point properly. My point of contention is that Dooku gets weaker due to the toll of dark side practices on him (he had been involved with these practices for over a decade); however, I have stated several times that he haven't reached a dead end yet; he still packed considerable punch at the end of the Clone Wars but that he was no longer as strong as he was when he fought against Yoda in Geonosis.

About the points you made:

1. I never said that Dooku's powers have become ineffective.

2. I have seen this footage. Once again! I don't understand that how this example helps your case or counters my assertion? That same Savage later on gives Dooku serious trouble. Think.

3. He subdues Asajj with his Force powers to quickly end the fight. This is the difference.

4. He stills relies on his MagnaGuards to assist him in this fight (the one of Naboo, correct?) and the distraction they afford him grants him the opportunity to use his FL on Anakin to subdue him.

5. He works according to the plan; which is to incapacitate Obi-Wan and create the circumstances to lure the Anakin to the dark side. It is obvious that Dooku could handle both with his Force powers (his turf) but he made a grave miscalculation; he wasn't in the positon to fight Anakin and Obi-Wan with his martial skills during this time. Those days were gone by now.

Yes, but he wasn't in the position to fight Anakin on the latter's turf by now. He apparently lacked the strength he once possessed for this kind of fight.

Look I don't actually mind the idea of AOTC Dooku being Prime Dooku.

I'm just not seeing you provide sufficient evidence to start believing that to be fact.

You've said it yourself you've given "hints" and that Dooku still clearly packed a heavy punch at the end of the Clone Wars. So evidence is really lacking.

Anakin and Obi-Wan were simply getting more powerful during the Clone Wars.

Oh and for you point 4, I was referring to when he floors Skywalker with a FL blast in "Crisis on Naboo."

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am talking about him being a match for Yoda and Mace at this point.

He was not on their level with his Force TK. Just like he wasn't on Dooku's level in that regard. But a Saber fight is a different realm. He best Dooku there and you can't guarantee he'd be no match for Mace or Yoda in that regard.

Of course the Force TK difference between Yoda and Anakin is just too much to the point where he can't even put up a fight. Not so with Dooku/Mace.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Don't bother with semantics; follow the argument.

It's not semantics. It's a request for you to keep your arguments consistent. You seem to be seperating Sabers and TK when it suits your argument and then combining them as one and the same where it again suits you.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Force is always in the use; be it in to influence martial abilities or to unleash Force powers. Continue to read below.

Difference is that Dooku demonstrates Jedi Consular like talents and Anakin demonstrates Jedi Knight like talents. Jedi Consulars are very competent in the use of the Force powers. Jedi Knights are very competent in the use of martial skills. Now this doesn't implies that a Jedi Consular cannot be competent in martial context or that a Jedi Knight cannot be competent in the use of the Force powers. It is possible to be competent in both aspects.

Same as above. While Sidious was formidable with the blade, Mace's unique talent changed the game in his favour. Picture is not always black and white; their can be exceptions and these exceptions are linked with special talents.

I'm not sure what your point is here. You seem to be giving a reason for the difference in Saber Prowess and Force Prowess attaching it to this Knight and Consualr concept.

But so what? The fact is they are different talents and both need to be analyzed seperately to decide who would win an all out.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Both Anakin and Kenobi were not in the position to contend with Dooku on his turf; the use of the Force powers.

And yet Anakin defeated him. Although Kenobi clearly couldn't.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This point is intended to counter your assertion that Kenobi can somehow contend with Sidious. He cannot.

If Kenobi handled the brothers simultaneously, this was his turf. He was a Jedi Knight and his martial abilities had to be excellent.

Sidious was also competent in martial aspect but his incredible command of the Force made him an overwhelming opponent. This is who he outgunned 3 celebrated swordsmen with ease and also defeated the brothers. Only exceptionally powerful Jedi Knights and/or Jedi Consulars could challenge him. Mace fit the bill as an exceptionally powerful Jedi Knight while Yoda fit the bill as an exceptionally powerful Jedi Consular.

First of all I never stated Kenobi can contend with Sidious.

You were implying that the proof that Yoda, Mace and Sidious are all above Dooku, Skywalker and Kenobi is that Yoda sent Kenobi to kill Skywalker even though he said he couldn't contend with Sidious.

All I said is that logic is not flawless because we also know from the same movie that Kenobi can not contend with Count Dooku, who Skywalker can defeat. And yet Yoda still sent Kenobi to kill Skywalker.

A>B>C didn't work very well at all in ROTS. Hence the reason to sub-analyze fights into Sabers, Force, All-Out as well as the environment and context of those fights.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I have stated that Yoda is not in the position to determine that how Dooku would rank in skill and power in history. He was certainly in a good position to constrast Dooku with all other Jedi whom he have trained and met.

It would be expected of Yoda to know where Obi-Wan stands in the big picture in power and skill; you think that Yoda didn't knew that Obi-Wan failed against Dooku several times? So would Yoda be misguiding him in the context of Sidious?

So then Yoda's judgment on Dooku being more learned in the Force than Mace and being the stronger student is reliable. As well as his judgement that Windu (at best) may be Dooku's equal in Sabers. Thank You 🙂

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He did not suspected that the Jedi could be this competent. His victory over the brothers probably clouded his judgement. You see? It all adds up well.

I'm sure he had an idea of what all the Jedi were capable of. He was keeping a close eye on them all those years.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
But not telekinetic assaults.

He could knock them off balance with his telekinetic abilities, if he wished to. Though he decided to end the fight as quickly as possible. If he had prolonged the fight, it would have been possible for all the Jedi to grow comfortable in handling his dueling assaults. The element of surprise worked well against 3 Jedi at least.

Your proving my point. He did what he had to in that situation where he was confronted by 4 Jedi. One who is the second most powerful Jedi in the Order.

And look at the location as well. He was forced into a close up brawl with Windu. It was a very different fight to the Yoda one. So certainly not proof that Mace>Sidious>Yoda.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That was just a joke. It wasn't a hint. Dooku replies "I would kill you both now if I didn't have to drag your bodies." Was that another hint that Dooku is stronger than both these youngsters? No.

Forget hints and let's stick to facts.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Being faster doesn't automatically mean speed blitz.

Clearly Dooku was faster than Opress which he showed when he kept dodging and evading all his strikes.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Look I don't actually mind the idea of AOTC Dooku being Prime Dooku.

I'm just not seeing you provide sufficient evidence to start believing that to be fact.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You've said it yourself you've given "hints" and that Dooku still clearly packed a heavy punch at the end of the Clone Wars. So evidence is really lacking.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anakin and Obi-Wan were simply getting more powerful during the Clone Wars.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh and for you point 4, I was referring to when he floors Skywalker with a FL blast in "Crisis on Naboo."

YouTube video

You see how MagnaGuards made difference?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He was not on their level with his Force TK. Just like he wasn't on Dooku's level in that regard. But a Saber fight is a different realm. He best Dooku there and you can't guarantee he'd be no match for Mace or Yoda in that regard.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course the Force TK difference between Yoda and Anakin is just too much to the point where he can't even put up a fight. Not so with Dooku/Mace.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's not semantics. It's a request for you to keep your arguments consistent. You seem to be seperating Sabers and TK when it suits your argument and then combining them as one and the same where it again suits you.

This is my statement: "Dooku handled the duo of Savage and Opress on the basis of his much greater command of the Force and experience. He was also a formidable duelist so all of these factors helped him."

Dooku received formal training in lightsaber combat and also in the use of the offensive applications of the Force, correct?

Now what happens when a Force-wielder duels? Force-wielder can use the Force to augment his/her physicial abilities. In addition, the Force-wielder attempts to anticipate the moves of his/her opponents on the basis of precognitive abilities which are also linked with the Force. So how can a Force-wielder use the Force to augment his/her martial competencies? The Force-wielder's "command of the Force" is the answer.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm not sure what your point is here. You seem to be giving a reason for the difference in Saber Prowess and Force Prowess attaching it to this Knight and Consualr concept.

"Difference is that Dooku demonstrates Jedi Consular like talents and Anakin demonstrates Jedi Knight like talents. Jedi Consulars are very competent in the use of the Force powers. Jedi Knights are very competent in the use of martial skills. Now this doesn't implies that a Jedi Consular cannot be competent in martial context or that a Jedi Knight cannot be competent in the use of the Force powers. It is possible to be competent in both aspects."

During the Clone Wars, we saw that Anakin was shaping himself in to a formidable warrior; his greatest core competency is his martial prowess and his command of the Force complements him in this aspect. Dooku, while being competent in this aspect, no longer packs the punch to handle a formidable warrior on his/her own turf at the end of Clone Wars; he already struggles against Anakin in his encounters prior to the one aboard Invisible Hand. 3 years back, Dooku was strong enough to compete with Yoda in this fashion for a while but situation have changed now. What is so difficult to understand here? The hint is obvious that Anakin have become more powerful and Dooku is no longer in his prime condition.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But so what? The fact is they are different talents and both need to be analyzed seperately to decide who would win an all out.

You may analyze these aspects separately but you won't get satisfactory answers in this manner.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And yet Anakin defeated him. Although Kenobi clearly couldn't.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
First of all I never stated Kenobi can contend with Sidious.

You were implying that the proof that Yoda, Mace and Sidious are all above Dooku, Skywalker and Kenobi is that Yoda sent Kenobi to kill Skywalker even though he said he couldn't contend with Sidious.

All I said is that logic is not flawless because we also know from the same movie that Kenobi can not contend with Count Dooku, who Skywalker can defeat. And yet Yoda still sent Kenobi to kill Skywalker.

A>B>C didn't work very well at all in ROTS. Hence the reason to sub-analyze fights into Sabers, Force, All-Out as well as the environment and context of those fights.

At Geonosis, Dooku packed the strength and power to hang with Yoda for a while. 3 years later, he cannot compete with Anakin and Obi-Wan in this fashion. So while Anakin and Obi-Wan have become stronger; Dooku have become weaker. This fits in well with the revelation that Obi-Wan cannot compete with Sidious at any level but he could compete with Anakin in all aspects. In contrast, Yoda can compete with Sidious.

What is the rocket science here?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So then Yoda's judgment on Dooku being more learned in the Force than Mace and being the stronger student is reliable. As well as his judgement that Windu (at best) may be Dooku's equal in Sabers. Thank You 🙂

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm sure he had an idea of what all the Jedi were capable of. He was keeping a close eye on them all those years.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your proving my point. He did what he had to in that situation where he was confronted by 4 Jedi. One who is the second most powerful Jedi in the Order.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And look at the location as well. He was forced into a close up brawl with Windu. It was a very different fight to the Yoda one. So certainly not proof that Mace>Sidious>Yoda.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It was a mock in (in-universe context); but a hint for audience in (real world context). Heck, Dooku is captured by some pirates; this is a sign that he has realistic limitations. But fans want to believe otherwise. Continue to read below.

Don't go there with the pirates. Filoni made it perfectly clear in the commentary to that episode that it had nothing to do with Dooku being weak, but just that the Jedi are defeated by sheer numbers as proven in AOTC.

Heck Dooku didn't even have his Lightsaber on him and was completely ambushed.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Agreed. However, Savage giving him a challenge indicates that Dooku is no longer in his prime condition. Are you willing to assume that Savage would give Yoda challenge?

First of all Savage only gave him a challenge in a close quarter 2 on 1 match.

Second Dooku was never Yoda's equal anyway.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I have offered sufficient explanation. Repeating myself again and again is not going to help this discussion. You ponder over my statements for a while and then make up your mind.

Problem is your "sufficient" explanation does not make it the truth. (Though I'm not ruling out the possibility of Dooku getting weaker year by year in his old age.)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is my observation. If you want a explicit statement from a novel or something; you are grasping at straws.

LOL Are you serious. Wanting a quote would be grasping for straws, but accepting your personal view of events as canon would be more reasonable?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You mean to imply that they began to rival Mace and Yoda?

In Saber combat? Possibly. Especially Skywalker should at least be comparable in that regard.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Here;

You see how MagnaGuards made difference?

No. He beat the Magnaguards first before he confronted Dooku. And Dooku made no move on Skywalker while he was occupied with the MG's.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Obi-Wan was a match for Anakin in most aspects. However, Yoda forbade him from confronting Sidious whom Mace had subdued not long ago. Yoda was in the position to contend with Sidious in one-on-one fashion but he also struggled. Therefore, Anakin and Obi-Wan, at the end of Clone Wars, are still not formidable enough to contend with the likes of Yoda, Mace and Sidious. This is what GL canon implies.

They'd be terribly outmatched by Yoda and Sidious's force powers. But Anakin should be capable of at least challenging Windu. He tanked all Dooku's Force attacks in the above video you provided. I doubt Windu's force attacks would be more lethal.

But the point is the logic of your implications are flawed. Because similarly Obi-Wan was a match for Anakin and yet was no match for Dooku. Does that mean Anakin was similarly no match for Dooku.

This is where A>B>C fails without proper analysis of Sabers, Force, All-Out and the context of the fights.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

During the Clone Wars, we saw that Anakin was shaping himself in to a formidable warrior; his greatest core competency is his martial prowess and his command of the Force complements him in this aspect. Dooku, while being competent in this aspect, no longer packs the punch to handle a formidable warrior on his/her own turf at the end of Clone Wars; he already struggles against Anakin in his encounters prior to the one aboard Invisible Hand. 3 years back, Dooku was strong enough to compete with Yoda in this fashion for a while but situation have changed now. What is so difficult to understand here? The hint is obvious that Anakin have become more powerful and Dooku is no longer in his prime condition.

Or Anakin just became a lot more powerful. The End.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If this is the case then how come Bane handled Kas'im?

Wait a minute? Wasn't Kas'im winning the Saber fight through superior Saber skill when he switched to Jar Kai? And then Bane defeated him with a Force Blast?

That actually proves my point!

Another Example in NEWER Canon. Kenobi was the superior Saber duelist to Maul yet clearly no match for Maul in Force TK.

Heck Kenobi actually completely stomped Opress in Saber combat, whilst Opress has put Kenobi on his Ass multiple times with his Force TK.

Such differences are ESSENTIAL to note when considering A>B>C arguments.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You may analyze these aspects separately but you won't get satisfactory answers in this manner.

I'm afraid you definitely won't get satisfactory answers by not seperating them and the conditions of each fight. Otherwise Anakin>Dooku>>Obi-Wan=Anakin and Mace > Sidious > Yoda.

You honestly think Mace is actually MORE Powerful than Sidious/Yoda?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dooku didn't chose to engage Obi-Wan in the same manner as he did Anakin. Try to understand the difference and my point.

What difference would that make? You just posted the video yourself of one of Dooku vs Skywalker fights where Skywalker is just shrugging off all Dooku's Force attacks. Something Kenobi clearly can't do.

Not to mention the ROTS novel makes it clear that Dooku's Knowledge of the Force had "become a joke" when confronting Skywalker.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Don't go there with the pirates. Filoni made it perfectly clear in the commentary to that episode that it had nothing to do with Dooku being weak, but just that the Jedi are defeated by sheer numbers as proven in AOTC.

Heck Dooku didn't even have his Lightsaber on him and was completely ambushed.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
First of all Savage only gave him a challenge in a close quarter 2 on 1 match.

- At one point, Savage dueled Dooku in one-on-one basis and also send the latter Sith Lord crashing in to the wall, disarming him in the process on the basis of his command in the Force.

- At another point, Savage handled Dooku and Asajj simultaneously on the basis of his command in the Force; forcing them both to flee.

You see the point? If we dissect his talents, Savage would not be comparable to Asajj and Dooku in several ways but in collective fashion, Savage was effective enough to give both trouble and force them to flee.

This is why in a versus thread, "command of the Force" is such an important element. It influences all aspects of combat; be it martial combat or offensive use of the Force.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Second Dooku was never Yoda's equal anyway.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Problem is your "sufficient" explanation does not make it the truth. (Though I'm not ruling out the possibility of Dooku getting weaker year by year in his old age.)

LOL Are you serious. Wanting a quote would be grasping for straws, but accepting your personal view of events as canon would be more reasonable?

I believe that my assertion fits well with Lucas's portrayals of these characters;

"At Geonosis, Dooku packed the strength and power to hang with Yoda for a while. 3 years later, he cannot compete with Anakin and Obi-Wan in this fashion. So while Anakin and Obi-Wan have become stronger; Dooku have become weaker. This fits in well with the revelation that Obi-Wan cannot compete with Sidious at any level but he could compete with Anakin in all aspects. In contrast, Yoda can compete with Sidious."

Do you have a better explanation? If yes, mention it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In Saber combat? Possibly. Especially Skywalker should at least be comparable in that regard.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No. He beat the Magnaguards first before he confronted Dooku. And Dooku made no move on Skywalker while he was occupied with the MG's.

Official link: http://starwars.com/explore/the-clone-wars/ep404/#!/media/trailer

This fight takes place prior to the fight which I cited earlier. In this fight, Dooku defeats Anakin with aid of MagnaGuards.

Even in Naboo, Dooku failed to subdue Anakin.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
They'd be terribly outmatched by Yoda and Sidious's force powers. But Anakin should be capable of at least challenging Windu. He tanked all Dooku's Force attacks in the above video you provided. I doubt Windu's force attacks would be more lethal.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But the point is the logic of your implications are flawed. Because similarly Obi-Wan was a match for Anakin and yet was no match for Dooku. Does that mean Anakin was similarly no match for Dooku.

This is where A>B>C fails without proper analysis of Sabers, Force, All-Out and the context of the fights.

It make sense to separate talents for a specific purpose. However, it makes no sense to separate talents in an all-out scenario. They all add up to define the effectiveness of a character in combat. How do you think that Dooku was able to fight off Anakin in Naboo? Because he was putting all of his talents to use in that fight (with no kind of plan to adhere to).

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Or Anakin just became a lot more powerful. The End.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Wait a minute? Wasn't Kas'im winning the Saber fight through superior Saber skill when he switched to Jar Kai? And then Bane defeated him with a Force Blast?

That actually proves my point!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Another Example in NEWER Canon. Kenobi was the superior Saber duelist to Maul yet clearly no match for Maul in Force TK.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Heck Kenobi actually completely stomped Opress in Saber combat, whilst Opress has put Kenobi on his Ass multiple times with his Force TK.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Such differences are ESSENTIAL to note when considering A>B>C arguments.

As an example: You think that Maul was lacking in bladework? He wasn't. However, he couldn't contend with Sidious because of the latter's much greater command of the Force. Sidious transformed himself in to an instrument of death and destruction with his command of the Force and managed to fight Maul in his terms in every aspect.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm afraid you definitely won't get satisfactory answers by not seperating them and the conditions of each fight. Otherwise Anakin>Dooku>>Obi-Wan=Anakin and Mace > Sidious > Yoda.

As per GL canon; Mace, Yoda and Sidious fall in the same tier. Whereas others rank lower then them.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You honestly think Mace is actually MORE Powerful than Sidious/Yoda?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What difference would that make? You just posted the video yourself of one of Dooku vs Skywalker fights where Skywalker is just shrugging off all Dooku's Force attacks. Something Kenobi clearly can't do.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Not to mention the ROTS novel makes it clear that Dooku's Knowledge of the Force had "become a joke" when confronting Skywalker.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dooku couldn't handle some pirates with his Force powers?

Recheck the duel!

- At one point, Savage dueled Dooku in one-on-one basis and also send the latter Sith Lord crashing in to the wall, disarming him in the process on the basis of his command in the Force.

- At another point, Savage handled Dooku and Asajj simultaneously on the basis of his command in the Force; forcing them both to flee.

You see the point? If we dissect his talents, Savage would not be comparable to Asajj and Dooku in several ways but in collective fashion, Savage was effective enough to give both trouble and force them to flee.

This is why in a versus thread, "command of the Force" is such an important element. It influences all aspects of combat; be it martial combat or offensive use of the Force.

Good! Now go back to page 6 and recheck your second post in it; what was your intent in that post?

I have been using the words such as "observation" and "hint" in this discussion. If their was a canonical quote, this debate would have ended long ago; don't you think?

I believe that my assertion fits well with Lucas's portrayals of these characters;

After careful consideration I think there may be some merit to the idea that Dooku was likely growing weaker in his last few years due to age. It's a reasonable assumption considering ANH Kenobi and TPM Qui-Gon were both supposed to be past their prime due to age. And Dooku was by far the oldest human in the PT. Around the same age as Palpatine was by ROTJ.

Also the newer canon is likely going to rewrite the timeline so that the CW was more than 3 years. We can see Ashoka and Boba physically maturing. And there's already been 5 seasons. There's no plan on cancelling it yet. Too many adventures for 3 years.

But your wrong with putting some of your examples down to age. The pirates was showing that the Jedi get defeated by pure numbers. That's ALL Jedi and Sith. Not just Dooku.

Case in example AOTC where the droids were going to defeat Many Jedi including Mace Windu.

And Opress only gave difficulty because he was fighting him and Opress continually one after the other while making sure he evades both. His one on one training session shows how hopelessly outmatched Opress was in a one on one.

My second post on page 6 was just explaining Dooku was able to put up a fight against Yoda. Go toe to toe for a while. I never suggested they were equals or that Dooku had a chance of winning. Yoda would have won. But then again according to the ROTS script Yoda also defeated Sidious in the Saber duel. So it's not exactly that bad. He did very well against the most powerful Jedi.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
"At Geonosis, Dooku packed the strength and power to hang with Yoda for a while. 3 years later, he cannot compete with Anakin and Obi-Wan in this fashion. So while Anakin and Obi-Wan have become stronger; Dooku have become weaker. This fits in well with the revelation that Obi-Wan cannot compete with Sidious at any level but he could compete with Anakin in all aspects. In contrast, Yoda can compete with Sidious."

I still don't get your point here though. He did compete against Both Anakin and Obi-Wan. Fought them both off with just 1 Saber. Heck he very almost Stomped them Both!

Force Choked Kenobi with complete ease and simultaneously slam kicked Skywalker half way across the room on to his ass!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Even if Anakin and Yoda engage in a pure lightsaber duel, Anakin would not be able to subdue Yoda due to the former not having comparable command of the Force. Yoda's position is different from that of Dooku. Yoda isn't involved in dark side practices that may accelerate his aging process prematurely. His species also lasts much longer then humans in endurance.

Agreed. I've never even argued this point.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I got confused between the clips. The fight which I was talking about is this one:

This fight takes place prior to the fight which I cited earlier. In this fight, Dooku defeats Anakin with aid of MagnaGuards.

Even in Naboo, Dooku failed to subdue Anakin.

Yes because his capture was too important. Dooku needed that fight to be completely one sided. It wasn't time to prove he can still take him one on one.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anakin and Obi-Wan will put up some fight but will end up loosing.

Against who? Mace? And you mean both of them together, or individually.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Neither Anakin and nor Obi-Wan could contend with Dooku on his turf; use of Force powers. If Dooku could knock Obi-Wan out with his Force powers, he could do the same with Anakin.
However, Dooku was no longer strong enough to contend with Anakin and Obi-Wan on their turf (lightsaber dueling) when they clashed aboard Invisible Hand.

Yeah except he COULDN'T. He gave Skywalker his Most powerful blow (TK Plus FL) and still didn't KO him.

Whilst he took Kenobi out with ridiculous ease- mid-saber fight no less-As in on Their turf(like you call it).

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This isn't because Dooku was lacking in proficiency in lightsaber combat; but because he was no longer strong enough to match Anakin and/or Obi-Wan in martial aspects. In contrast, in Geonosis, he dueled 3 Jedi (including Yoda) and was still strong enough to plan his escape. You do the math.

He never fought them both together on Geonosis. And they were A LOT weaker then anyway. Heck the novel makes it clear AOTC Skywalker alone gave Dooku some struggle.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It make sense to separate talents for a specific purpose. However, it makes no sense to separate talents in an all-out scenario. They all add up to define the effectiveness of a character in combat. How do you think that Dooku was able to fight off Anakin in Naboo? Because he was putting all of his talents to use in that fight (with no kind of plan to adhere to).

And yet he still couldn't take Anakin out. (You could say he sort of bested him with the FL+TK hit). But he couldn't do to him what he did to Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No. If this was the case, he would have demolished Obi-Wan..

And yet Count Dooku did demolish him. On their TURF. Fighting both Skywalker and Kenobi mid-Saber fight!

This is exactly why YOU MUST seperate Sabers, Force and All-Out. Otherwise nothing makes sense at all.

You certainly haven't made any sense out of the Anakin>Dooku>>Obi-Wan=Anakin scenario.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I have seen their fights; both could win or loose because their wasn't much power disparity between the two.

Obi-Wan was slightly better in Sabers. The difference in their Force TK Powers was considerably larger. Hence Maul couldn't defeat Kenobi in Sabers (even with the aid of Opress) but knocked Kenobi out with a Force Blast.

Maul could possibly challenge Dooku in an all out. Kenobi can't. And yet your right an all out fight between Kenobi and Maul could go either way.

Again this all only makes sense when we seperate Sabers, Force and All-Out.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Savage is not as proficient in the use of lightsaber. Also, don't just quote examples without proper context. Savage grows and changes with passage of time; his effectiveness increases accordingly. Their are duels in which Savage contends with both Obi-Wan and Anakin simultaneously so picture isn't so black and white.

Savage never improved much. His main power boost was from Mother Talzin. His training from Count Dooku only aided him a little. Because he hardly got any.

I'm not quoting anything out of context. In "Witches of the Mist" Opress floored both Anakin and Obi-Wan with Force Tk a few times. The first time he wasn't even in a rage. And he shoves their ship off a cliff. Certainly better TK than Obi-Wan has ever displayed.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As per GL canon; Mace, Yoda and Sidious fall in the same tier. Whereas others rank lower then them.

Where did he rank all 3 of them above Dooku and Skywalker? He didn't.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Skywalker do gets overwhelmed by Dooku's Force powers. Case in point: Star Wars Clone Wars Season 4 Episode 4.

Yeah after getting Battered by Magnaguards. And still with a combination of Force choke and FL, and even still you can see the exhaustion on his face after doing that.

Fact is he took out Obi-Wan with ridiculous ease. No Fl combo needed. No Magnaguards needed. He took him out Mid-Saber fight with a simple Choke.

He clearly can not do that to Skywalker.

So again Skywalker>Dooku>>>Kenobi=Anakin.

dooku is a match for sidious on his own. with ventress and savage sidious will be killed but will take either ventress or savage with him

Nick Gillard and George Lucas even said that Sidious, Mace, Anakin, Yoda, and Dooku were level 9 saber duelists, while Obi-Wan and OT Vader were level 8 saber duelists.

Soooo, yeah Skywalker is better in sabers than Obi-Wan.