Palpatine vs Dooku, Savage, and Ventress

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
One of the Sith Order's greatest warriors couldn't solo her whom even Sidious regarded as a role model for Vader to follow and you think that Count would solo her? She became the Grand Jedi Master in an age when prodigiously talented individuals weren't uncommon. Think.

In this strike team, all individuals were one of the finest warriors in Jedi Order. This is canonically implied.

Bro, you apparently forgot that Tol Braga himself was part of this team; he formed it.

They weren't but Hero of Tython was in it. And this guy is an A-lister.

However, this was a very potent strike team. Though Vitiate demonstrated that how good he was, when in good shape. Vitiate is a top-tier Force-wielder in the whole mythos alongside Sidious and Luke.

When have I ever denied Vitiate is top tier? He's up there with Sidious and Yoda force wise. Luke is way too much of a stretch though.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The Dooku underestimation on these boards is obscene.

Preach it.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Anakin, Ki-Adi Mundi...that's about it. And I'm not just talking about your run of the mill masters. I am talking about Jedi Council masters.

Oh, come on. You can do better than that.

No it's pitiful to deduce that Satele Shan is more powerful than someone who is noted to be one of the most powerful Jedi in history, and went on to become an even more powerful Sith. Yoda trained Jedi for 800 years and puts Dooku as his greatest pupil.

And when exactly did I ever say that Shan is more powerful than Dooku? I am merely pointing that she is not to be simply tossed aside in terms of power and skill, and that the fact that she could put up a good fight has to be considered.

The Dooku underestimation on these boards is obscene. Satele is noted as a prodigy, and compared to Bastilla and Revan in prowess. But never is she stated to be more powerful or even as powerful as the likes of Revan or the Sith Emperor.

So since it's never stated you're just assuming she isn't? It doesn't need to be stated for us to consider her powerful.

Selective reading much?
"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure."

Yoda isn't an omniscient narrator, but he's the most powerful and learned Jedi in history. His opinion holds a shit ton greater weight than yours does on matters of power levels. Dooku leaving the order was such a big deal because he was one of the greatest students of the force the Jedi Order had produced in the history of ever.

In history? You mean up until Luke comes along, correct?

And no, his opinion does not necessarily hold so much weight. Quoting Kreia (KotoR II):

"If you were to battle an old Sith Lord in a lightsaber duel, you would find that we're only children playing with toys compared to the Dark Lords of the Ancient Sith Empire."

Are you going to tell me Kreia isn't a knowledgeable, wise, and learned character? She is. Would you agree with her statement? I'm willing to say you're not. It's pretty much the same situation.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
Oh, come on. You can do better than that.

And when exactly did I ever say that Shan is more powerful than Dooku? I am merely pointing that she is not to be simply tossed aside in terms of power and skill, and that the fact that she could put up a good fight has to be considered.

So since it's never stated you're just assuming she isn't? It doesn't need to be stated for us to consider her powerful.

In history? You mean up until Luke comes along, correct?

Naturally, although Yoda will remain in my eyes the most wise Jedi the order will ever produce.

And no, his opinion does not necessarily hold so much weight. Quoting Kreia (KotoR II):

"If you were to battle an old Sith Lord in a lightsaber duel, you would find that we're only children playing with toys compared to the Dark Lords of the Ancient Sith Empire."

Are you going to tell me Kreia isn't a knowledgeable, wise, and learned character? She is. Would you agree with her statement? I'm willing to say you're not. It's pretty much the same situation.

Not at all. The only duelists of note in the known galaxy at that time were the Exile, Kreia, Nihilus, Sion, and the 3 Masters. None of them could hold a candle to say, Darth Nyriss with a blade.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

Uhh I don't really see much of a problem with this statement. In fact the Exile pretty much confirmed this when he dueled a Sith from the remnants of the Ancient Sith Empire (Darth Nyriss) and got her shit wrecked even with Scourge backing her up.

The only thing is that is discussed in other threads, that specific blurb by Kreia is stated to be unconfirmed, as the timeline seems to imply that the Sith had not even begun using sabers at that point. Not arguing that the duelists then weren't great, especially since during that period the Sith and Jedi were in a pretty constant state of war in some form or another. Just saying that area of canon is pretty ambiguous and has never been given any full confirmation.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
The only thing is that is discussed in other threads, that specific blurb by Kreia is stated to be unconfirmed, as the timeline seems to imply that the Sith had not even begun using sabers at that point. Not arguing that the duelists then weren't great, especially since during that period the Sith and Jedi were in a pretty constant state of war in some form or another. Just saying that area of canon is pretty ambiguous and has never been given any full confirmation.

I don't see the discussion. The Lords of Naga Sadow's Empire had lightsabers. That same Empire that is present in the current TOR storyline. The bladesmasters of this Empire have indeed proven to be superior to the likes of the Exile and her crew. By a good margin at that.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I don't see the discussion. The Lords of Naga Sadow's Empire had lightsabers. That same Empire that is present in the current TOR storyline. The bladesmasters of this Empire have indeed proven to be superior to the likes of the Exile and her crew. By a good margin at that.

There was some gap in time between the old Empire and it's reemergence in TOR, plenty of time for the quality of different aspects of their skills to change.

The old Empire's Sith barely dueled with sabers in the comics they've shown up in, sorcery looked to play a much larger role in their conflicts.

And Revan seemed to be a match for anyone in TOR Empire save for the Emperor.

Originally posted by Q99
There was some gap in time between the old Empire and it's reemergence in TOR, plenty of time for the quality of different aspects of their skills to change.

The old Empire's Sith barely dueled with sabers in the comics they've shown up in, sorcery looked to play a much larger role in their conflicts.

And Revan seemed to be a match for anyone in TOR Empire save for the Emperor.

Revan wasn't included in that statement. And we never saw how he'd last against Nyriss in a saber battle. We just know he can wtf pwn her with the force.

Uliq Qel'Droma and Exar Kun were also mere Jedi Knights. The Jedi Path makes it clear that becoming a Jedi Master is more about responsibility than power, with most elevated after they take on a padawan.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You think Starkiller is faster than Yoda?

No? But he doesn't need to be to be capable to using the Force in the time it takes Dooku to run up to him and start swinging. Just saying, all he has to do is raise his ****ing hand.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Wut? In the game he smashes him with gigantic pillars before he overcomes him in saber combat.

But he still beats him in lightsaber combat. Them also using the Force on each other doesn't preclude that Starkiller legitimately beat him with a lightsaber.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Fair enough. But at the same time consider Dooku's performances against Yoda, the most powerful Jedi up to that point in history. No way Starkiller does better than Yoda.

This is why ABC logic doesn't work. Different characters have different strengths and weaknesses. Starkiller has much better offensive Force powers than Yoda and I think he can use it to overpower Ventress and Savage or keep his Dooku at bay.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That statement is clearly hyperbole. Unless you consider Tol Braga and his peyons more powerful than the Grand Master of the Jedi order and Jaric Kaedan who brought the dreadmasters to justice.

No it isn't. What about indicates hyperbole? I'm not saying they are the absolute strongest, only that they rank up among the strongest members of the Order at that time. Warren Sedoru was 'already one of the most acclaimed Jedi Knights of the order when the Sith Empire attacked the Republic at Korriban. He was one of the first Jedi to lead a counterattack against Imperial forces and scored several early victories against them.' And Leeha Narezz was a warrior who "never knew failure." Theres no reason to doubt that these guy really were elite Jedi other than preconceived notions about other combatants.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
'Not important enough to go to Alderaan Jedi'
And several other statements make it clear that the Jedi on Coruscant were the B team.

Where does that come from?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
There is no one, no one Jedi or Sith who can tango with the likes of Yoda and Sidious who aren't top tier in speed. Period.

Even with a speed boost on Vjun Dooku lost to Yoda. Theres nothing indicating Dooku is as fast as Yoda is, merely that he is close enough to fight him without being blitzed.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

"The best of all would be the [B]strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure."

Yoda isn't an omniscient narrator, but he's the most powerful and learned Jedi in history. His opinion holds a shit ton greater weight than yours does on matters of power levels. Dooku leaving the order was such a big deal because he was one of the greatest students of the force the Jedi Order had produced in the history of ever. [/B]

👆

Originally posted by Nephthys
No? But he doesn't need to be to be capable to using the Force in the time it takes Dooku to run up to him and start swinging. Just saying, all he has to do is raise his ****ing hand.

Is that all he really has to do?

I mean in theory it makes sense. But practically, did he win any fight like that? And the majority of his opponents were considerably less powerful than Dooku in the Force.

He doesn't need to overpower Dooku, just his two accomplices.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Uliq Qel'Droma and Exar Kun were also mere Jedi Knights. The Jedi Path makes it clear that becoming a Jedi Master is more about responsibility than power, with most elevated after they take on a padawan.

Again these are special cases. Noted several times within the mythos.

No? But he doesn't need to be to be capable to using the Force in the time it takes Dooku to run up to him and start swinging. Just saying, all he has to do is raise his ****ing hand.

But he still beats him in lightsaber combat. Them also using the Force on each other doesn't preclude that Starkiller legitimately beat him with a lightsaber.

Bull. Vader was crushed several times, had a reactor thrown at him before Starkiller could best him in sabers.

This is why ABC logic doesn't work. Different characters have different strengths and weaknesses. Starkiller has much better offensive Force powers than Yoda and I think he can use it to overpower Ventress and Savage or keep his Dooku at bay.

I dunno about much better. And I doubt Starkiller could give Ventress the treatment Yoda did.

No it isn't. What about indicates hyperbole? I'm not saying they are the absolute strongest, only that they rank up among the strongest members of the Order at that time. Warren Sedoru was 'already one of the most acclaimed Jedi Knights of the order when the Sith Empire attacked the Republic at Korriban. He was one of the first Jedi to lead a counterattack against Imperial forces and scored several early victories against them.' And Leeha Narezz was a warrior who "never knew failure." Theres no reason to doubt that these guy really were elite Jedi other than preconceived notions about other combatants.

Where does that come from?

Even with a speed boost on Vjun Dooku lost to Yoda. Theres nothing indicating Dooku is as fast as Yoda is, merely that he is close enough to fight him without being blitzed.

Precisely. If he cannot be blitzed by Yoda, no way is he going to be blitzed by Starkiller.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He doesn't need to overpower Dooku, just his two accomplices.

Well he does unless Dooku is just going to stand there and let him take them out.

Also it's not like Opress is so weak in the Force that he'll get taken out with one wave.

Remember Opress and Ventress together were challenging Dooku. Over here we have Dooku, Opress and Ventress. That's a pretty difficult team to beat even for the top elite.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda

I dunno about much better. And I doubt Starkiller could give Ventress the treatment Yoda did.

And we don't even know if Yoda could do that to Ventress while fighting off Dooku and Opress. Especially seen as Ventress grew more powerful since Yoda did that to her, to the point where Sidious was concerned about a possible team up of Dooku and Ventress.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And we don't even know if Yoda could do that to Ventress while fighting off Dooku and Opress. Especially seen as Ventress grew more powerful since Yoda did that to her, to the point where Sidious was concerned about a possible team up of Dooku and Ventress.

A very fair point.
Thus my point if Sidious was concerned about Dooku + Ventress. I'd imagine Dooku + Ventress + Savage would be a massive challenge for him.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Again these are special cases. Noted several times within the mythos.

So why can't the strike team be a special occasion too?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Right but it takes time to force pwn someone. In that time Dooku would close the distance. Dooku alone would likely give Starkiller more trouble than Vader ever did.

Does it? Starkiller force pwns Kazdan Paratus in the novel pretty fast. If you can break through your opponents barriers then you can take them down.

I doubt it. Vader is in my mind a superior combatant to Dooku.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Bull. Vader was crushed several times, had a reactor thrown at him before Starkiller could best him in sabers.

Wait, first game or second? First game, he was crushed before, sure, but in the novel Galen beats him with his lightsaber before he levitates him and smacks him with stuff including the reactor.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I dunno about much better. And I doubt Starkiller could give Ventress the treatment Yoda did.

Yoda has stated that he doesn't believe in offensively using the Force and indeed rarely attacks with it. And why? Starkiller is incredibly powerful. While I don't think the whole frigate disintegration is canon, he is still powerful enough to be Yoda's equal in terms of raw Force powers.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
It says a strike team of the strongest. That implies that Strike team>Anyone else in the order, which is clear hyperbole.

It isn't hyperbole, as it obviously isn't an obvious exaggeration or figure of speech. Furthermore, its supported by the Act II title screen which calls them the greatest Jedi in the Order. One statement by itself might be able to be dismissed as hyperbole, but two independent statements that support itself make for a good basis in facts. Why can't they be the strongest members of the Order? Because Satale Shan isn't a member? Big whoop, girl does **** all through out the whole game, theres nothing indicating shes really all that.

Even if it is, it still proves that the members are among the greatest and strongest Jedi at the time, and as such cannot be dismissed as fodder.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Star Wars: The Old Republic, Threat of Peace Act 1: Treaty of Coruscant

Ok, well all that indicates is that the guy wasn't important, not that he was weak. All that matters is that the codex calls him one of the Jedis most famous duelists.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Precisely. If he cannot be blitzed by Yoda, no way is he going to be blitzed by Starkiller.

Did I ever say he was going to be blitzed by Starkiller? No, all I said was that I didn't think Dooku could blitz him while he's fighting the other two.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Yoda has stated that he doesn't believe in offensively using the Force and indeed rarely attacks with it.

Where's he stated this?

In an obscure little source called Empire Strikes Back. :I

'A jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack.'

^ I don't think he was specifically talking about Force TK attacks tbh. He was just explaining to Luke the Jedi's general philosophy regarding combat.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So why can't the strike team be a special occasion too?

Does it? Starkiller force pwns Kazdan Paratus in the novel pretty fast. If you can break through your opponents barriers then you can take them down.

Force pwning one Jedi is not the same as force pwning someone while fending off two opponents.

I doubt it. Vader is in my mind a superior combatant to Dooku.

Wait, first game or second? First game, he was crushed before, sure, but in the novel Galen beats him with his lightsaber before he levitates him and smacks him with stuff including the reactor.

Yoda has stated that he doesn't believe in offensively using the Force and indeed rarely attacks with it. And why? Starkiller is incredibly powerful. While I don't think the whole frigate disintegration is canon, he is still powerful enough to be Yoda's equal in terms of raw Force powers.

"Destroy the Sith we must." Yoda may not believe in the use of the force for offense in usual circumstances. But he has his moments. Close to Yoda? Sure. Equal to or superior to? No.
I think that though non-canon, the DS ending of TFU gives a pretty good depiction of what would happen with Starkiller vs. a serious Palpatine. And let me tell you, Yoda would give him the same treatment if he has the SOM he had against Sidious.

It isn't hyperbole, as it obviously isn't an obvious exaggeration or figure of speech. Furthermore, its supported by the Act II title screen which calls them the greatest Jedi in the Order. One statement by itself might be able to be dismissed as hyperbole, but two independent statements that support itself make for a good basis in facts. Why can't they be the strongest members of the Order? Because Satale Shan isn't a member? Big whoop, girl does **** all through out the whole game, theres nothing indicating shes really all that.

Because there is 1 Jedi Council Member on that strike team. It's an unquantifable statement. There's no way you're going to convince me that those Jedi were more powerful than say, Satele, Kaedan, or the Barsen'thor.

Even if it is, it still proves that the members are among the greatest and strongest Jedi at the time, and as such cannot be dismissed as fodder.

Ok, well all that indicates is that the guy wasn't important, not that he was weak. All that matters is that the codex calls him one of the Jedis most famous duelists.

Did I ever say he was going to be blitzed by Starkiller? No, all I said was that I didn't think Dooku could blitz him while he's fighting the other two.

Dooku-Savage-Ventress run towards Starkiller to engage him. Starkiller lifts up Ventress or Savage. By the time he ragdolls them. Dooku and one of his apprentices will be up on him. And if the pins Ventress and Savage, Dooku will dice him to pieces before he can finish KOing them.

Somehow this thread evolved into Marek vs Dooku, Savage and Ventress…and it’s even more interesting than before 😄

My thoughts on Marek vs Dooku thingie:
While Marek is incredibly powerful, and his power level is approaching RotS Sidious/Yoda tier in my book, he still lacks few things as a combatant.

First, knowledge and mastery of the force. He is the guy who hits things hard. Period. Dooku might be able to out-do him when it comes to mastery. I must agree with Mizukage Yoda that Dooku is heavily underrated when it comes to his force power, he will not be easy pickings. Personally I see him just below Vader in terms of force strength. And we know that Marek -Vader fight was a toss-up, at least in the beginning.

Second, Marek’s saber skills. Marek is good, (perhaps even better than he is given credit) but he’s still relatively mediocre compared to the likes of Yoda, Sidious and…Dooku. No doubt Dooku has him here, and quite frankly, if it comes to close quarters the Count will score win in sabers.

Now, add to this Ventress and Savage, who are a formidable team on their own, and Marek will be extremely hard-pressed to take them all.
All in all I see the team winning 6/10.