Maul Brothers VS. Mace Windu

Originally posted by Ascendancy
No, he didn't.

The episode bares out what Filoni said: Sidious dominated the entire time. Maul and Savage literally never stood a chance. This has been discussed at length in that thread.

Yes because they were hopelessly outmatched in Force powers. One need only watch the fight to see the 2 of them combined were not hopelessly outmatched in Sabers.

Filoni only talked about the all out. He never seperated the fight into Sabers, Force and All-Out.

This has been explained to you many times. Point to me the part where he Saber stomped them both together.

Heck just point out the part where he Saber Stomped Maul.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
While Sidious may have drawn on the Force to make for such an easy victory, the only time he used the Force directly against the brothers was to toy with them (speaking to what you said above about him using the Force).

It's nice living in denial isn't it? Every time he gained a huge advantage it was through Force powers.

At the beginning of the fight when he was crushing them with the Force.

When Opress knocked him off the balcony he resorted to using the Force to knock them both down with him.

When he seperated Maul from the fight with a Force Blast so he could stomp them both One on One.

Originally posted by CountDooku22

I'm pretty sure Lucas considers a lot of the planets not listed there, as Canon.

It's not a "legit source" of anything, seeing as how it's functionally-incomplete.

It's just an official fansite.

But Wookieepedia is complete and also more up to date.

Well the Bios on the official site has a link to their wooki bio for a more in depth EU take. So that's something I guess.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
As I was just explaining to SWL A>B>C doesn't work very well in Star Wars. That's especially the case in ROTS. So we have to split these fights into Sabers, Force and All-Out. As well as the context of the fights:

1.Kenobi was clearly no match for both brothers with a single Saber. With 2 he was able to fight off both and even defeat one of them.

2.Sidious also tooled the brothers with the use of 2 Sabers AND his far superior Force TK Powers. Force powers that are above Mace's.
In fact Sidious never beat both brothers together without the use of his Force TK Powers.

3. Maul actually held his own in the Saber fight against the whole time. In fact in the last fight he really gave Sidious a run for his money (in Sabers) all on his own.

Now having said all that IF you give Mace 2 Sabers to fight off both opponents and assuming his Jar Kai skills are as impressive as Sidiou's then yes I'll give him the win. (Although even then I wouldn't give him 9/10).

But in a standard fight where he has just the 1 Saber to fight them both. And knowing he doesn't have Sidious's command of the Force to just easily pinn them both and throw them both around...

In those circumstances I have a very very hard time giving Mace a majority here. Especially looking at how Dooku struggled against Ventress and Opress.

This makes no sense though Darth and I believe you know it. It seems you have a man crush on this pair, and can't seem to seperate yourself from said crush.

Do you believe Kenobi can beat Mace with 2 sabers and Mace only have 1? I believe Mace wins.... and thus it isn't needed for him to have 2 sabers. He's already better than a person who held his own with two sabers.

You keep also mentioning Sids force powers and how that got him the victory and act like Mace doesn't have force powers of his own. He has impressive TK himself. Do you place Mace's TK above that of Maul or Savage? I do, and thus Mace would also enjoy a force powers advantage. But regardless, let's say he doesn't enjoy an advantage sids did. You're forgetting that Mace has OTHER advantages that sids doesn't... i.e. Shatterpoint and Vaapad. These are JUST as big an advantage in fighting these two and sids force power advantage.. which IMO is minimal when it comes to TK.

This has nothing to do with ABC logic and everything to do with Mace is plain superior in virtually ever way.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This makes no sense though Darth and I believe you know it. It seems you have a man crush on this pair, and can't seem to seperate yourself from said crush.

Ok. You have a man crush on Mace. See how that works!

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Do you believe Kenobi can beat Mace with 2 sabers and Mace only have 1?

No. But he's better suited to take on TWO Lightsaber wielding opponents with 2 Blades than Mace is with 1 Blade.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I believe Mace wins.... and thus it isn't needed for him to have 2 sabers. He's already better than a person who held his own with two sabers.

Again where's the evidence? Even Sidious fought them both with 2 Blades. Dooku was clearly challenged when fighting a much less powerful duo(Opress and Ventress) with only 1 Blade.

And yet we KNOW that Kenobi is no match for Count Dooku at all (in an all out).

So clearly the 2 Sabers aid in taking on multiple opponents. And these 2 Opponents are not a couple of weaklings that Mace can just Force crush or fend them both off one handed.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You keep also mentioning Sids force powers and how that got him the victory and act like Mace doesn't have force powers of his own. He has impressive TK himself. Do you place Mace's TK above that of Maul or Savage? I do, and thus Mace would also enjoy a force powers advantage.

Mace has better force powers, but these 2 have both also shown some Beastly Force TK. And there's 2 of them! He might get in the odd Force push, but he certainly won't be easily throwing them around the way Sidious did. And I doubt he'll be knocking Maul out with One Force push.

Besides with just 1 Damn Saber they're going to be all over him and he won't get a chance to do even that.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
But regardless, let's say he doesn't enjoy an advantage sids did. You're forgetting that Mace has OTHER advantages that sids doesn't... i.e. Shatterpoint and Vaapad. These are JUST as big an advantage in fighting these two and sids force power advantage.. which IMO is minimal when it comes to TK.

He had those advantages against Sidious. Vapaad made him Sids equal. Shatterpoint gave him the edge. What gives Sid the huge edge over Mace against these 2 though (apart from his Superior Force TK Powers) is his Exceptional Jar Kai abilities.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This has nothing to do with ABC logic and everything to do with Mace is plain superior in virtually ever way.

He's superior to Maul in one on one in every way no doubt. He would plain out stomp Opress One on One.

But fending off both of them is a totally different game. Maul even by himself isn't easy pickings. He can hold his own in Sabers. You know he's also completely Mastered Form 7 right? The Juyo Variant.

Do you have any proof that Kenobi NEEDED two blades? Because I picked up a bat to kick somebody's ass.. doesn't mean I needed the bat to kick somebody ass. This applies to Sids and Kenobi... Do you have any narration stating they needed two because they were going to lose with one? If not, that point is moot.

Umm actually these two ARE opponents that Mace can do just that.. DId you forget that Mace is even faster than Sids... The same Sids who blitzed 3 jedi masters before they could react? Yeah that puts hiim considerably ahead of this duo in speed and exactly why he doens't need two sabers.

Of course he doesn't need to force push.. he can just use his superior speed.. superior skill.. superior form of Vaapad and shatterpoint to defeat them.. he doesn't even need TK. The point is, his TK is superior to either of these two and is just another asset that puts Mace over the top here.

Now, for YOUR proof... Who has this duo beaten that is on the level of Mace? Shit, who has this duo beaten that is even remotely impressive?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The point is, his TK is superior to either of these two and is just another asset that puts Mace over the top here.

According to?

"Liberty On Ryloth,".. Micro/Mini series and shattepoint Novel?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well the Bios on the official site has a link to their wooki bio for a more in depth EU take. So that's something I guess.

If George Lucas/Leeland Chee has authorized the official site, to use Wookieepedia as a source for Star Wars material, that means Lucas/Chee, considers Wookieepedia by their own standards, to be officially taken as a source.

I'll remember this.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
[B]Do you have any proof that Kenobi NEEDED two blades? Because I picked up a bat to kick somebody's ass.. doesn't mean I needed the bat to kick somebody ass. This applies to Sids and Kenobi... Do you have any narration stating they needed two because they were going to lose with one? If not, that point is moot.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
"Liberty On Ryloth,".. Micro/Mini series and shattepoint Novel?

Opress has similar feats to Mace's "Liberty On Ryloth," CW Mini greatly exaggerated force powers so it's not fair to compare to characters who weren't even in that series.

However I do believe Mace's Force TK is superior to Maul/Opress's simply because Sidious seemingly wasn't able to easily subdue him with the Force.

Having said that I doubt he leaps and bounds ahead of the Brothers in this department considering their own feats. And he certainly won't be dominating them both together.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Do you have any proof that Kenobi NEEDED two blades? Because I picked up a bat to kick somebody's ass.. doesn't mean I needed the bat to kick somebody ass. This applies to Sids and Kenobi... Do you have any narration stating they needed two because they were going to lose with one? If not, that point is moot.

Your really stretching it here KT. The point was made pretty obvious this series. Especially in the episode where Kenobi did just that.

He was barely besting Maul with 1 Saber in their one on one in the same damn episode!

He tries fending off Both Brothers with 1 Saber but ran away.. He specifically grabbed Adi's Saber before he ran. What was so important to grab her Saber there and then?

Maul says "Your no macth for us both," then Kenobi ignited 2 Sabers and says "You are Mistaken". That can not be made more clear.

Lastly it's for you to prove that 2 Sabers is Kenobi's preferred style. Otherwise why would he specifically use 2 when he's in for the fight off his life against 2 Opponents.

The episode made it plenty clear. Don't grasp on this point. If Kenobi could have fought them both with just his own Saber, then he would have done just that.

For the record this is how Obi-Wan does with 1 Saber against both brothers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72l2PamTNb4

At 1:25. He knew he couldn't just flip between both brothers trying to fight them with 1 Saber. Being in the middle of them, just keeping an eye out for Maul got him disarmed.

So don't grasp at this point. It's been made plenty clear.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Umm actually these two ARE opponents that Mace can do just that.. DId you forget that Mace is even faster than Sids...
The same Sids who blitzed 3 jedi masters before they could react? Yeah that puts hiim considerably ahead of this duo in speed and exactly why he doens't need two sabers.

Mace has never been said to be faster than Sids. At best he's as fast as the same Sidious who used 2 Sabers to fight both brothers.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Of course he doesn't need to force push.. he can just use his superior speed.. superior skill.. superior form of Vaapad and shatterpoint to defeat them.. he doesn't even need TK. The point is, his TK is superior to either of these two and is just another asset that puts Mace over the top here.

All that skill and speed gave him just the edge over Sidious in Sabers. The same Sidious who used 2 Sabers and exceptional Jar Kai skills and acrobatics to fight off both brothers.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Now, for YOUR proof... Who has this duo beaten that is on the level of Mace? Shit, who has this duo beaten that is even remotely impressive?

If you want to be black and white about who they've beaten, then they've beaten Kenobi and Ventress together. You think Mace would beat Kenobi and Ventress together 9/10?

But the more relevant comparison is their fight with Sids who is pretty much Mace's equal in Sabers. But superior to Mace in the Force. And even Sids used 2 Sabers to fight them both off.

Maul held his own the whole Saber fight against even Sids.

An Angry Dual Saber wielding Maul on his own gave even Sids a run for his money in that last Saber fight.

He was barely besting Maul with 1 Saber in their one on one in the same damn episode!

Originally posted by Arhael
I wouldn't describe it like that. Kenobi was just demonstrating his typical Soresu style - passive defence and giving ground. Word "barely" doesn't really fit.

You got my point though.

He was besting Maul but it's not like he was stomping him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your really stretching it here KT. The point was made pretty obvious this series. Especially in the episode where Kenobi did just that.

He was barely besting Maul with 1 Saber in their one on one in the same damn episode!

He tries fending off Both Brothers with 1 Saber but ran away.. He specifically grabbed Adi's Saber before he ran. What was so important to grab her Saber there and then?

Maul says "Your no macth for us both," then Kenobi ignited 2 Sabers and says "You are Mistaken". That can not be made more clear.

Lastly it's for you to prove that 2 Sabers is Kenobi's preferred style. Otherwise why would he specifically use 2 when he's in for the fight off his life against 2 Opponents.

The episode made it plenty clear. Don't grasp on this point. If Kenobi could have fought them both with just his own Saber, then he would have done just that.

For the record this is how Obi-Wan does with 1 Saber against both brothers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72l2PamTNb4

At 1:25. He knew he couldn't just flip between both brothers trying to fight them with 1 Saber. Being in the middle of them, just keeping an eye out for Maul got him disarmed.

So don't grasp at this point. It's been made plenty clear.

Mace has never been said to be faster than Sids. At best he's as fast as the same Sidious who used 2 Sabers to fight both brothers.

All that skill and speed gave him just the edge over Sidious in Sabers. The same Sidious who used 2 Sabers and exceptional Jar Kai skills and acrobatics to fight off both brothers.

If you want to be black and white about who they've beaten, then they've beaten Kenobi and Ventress together. You think Mace would beat Kenobi and Ventress together 9/10?

But the more relevant comparison is their fight with Sids who is pretty much Mace's equal in Sabers. But superior to Mace in the Force. And even Sids used 2 Sabers to fight them both off.

Maul held his own the whole Saber fight against even Sids.

An Angry Dual Saber wielding Maul on his own gave even Sids a run for his money in that last Saber fight.

I won't belabor the point buddy, but the point still stands on its merit anyways. There is ZERO proof Kenobi needed two lightsabers to beat the Maul Brothers... Just as there is no proof Sids needed two.. in fact... we know he didn't. Point being, Mace doesn't need two sabers.. just like Kenobi (fought both of them off with one) didn't need two.

So they haven't beaten anybody of note really then? Okay I was just making sure I wasn't missing a fight or something. By feats Mace wins correct? So what do we have on the side of the brothers that gives you a little idea they win.. ummmm.. ummmm.. THE HAVE TWO SABERS TO MACE's ONE... Ummm nah, not good enough.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I won't belabor the point buddy, but the point still stands on its merit anyways. There is ZERO proof Kenobi needed two lightsabers to beat the Maul Brothers...

I just posted you a damn video clip of where he got STOMPED when forced to face both brothers with a Single Lightsaber.

Even in the Same damn episode where he beat the Brothers, he fled from them when he was facing them with One, AND specifically grabbed Adi's Lightsaber before he fled.

And when Maul said he's no match for them BOTH, Kenobi ignited BOTH Sabers before he says "You are Mistaken."

You have a strange definition of Zero evidence.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Just as there is no proof Sids needed two.. in fact... we know he didn't. Point being, Mace doesn't need two sabers.. just like Kenobi (fought both of them off with one) didn't need two.

If Sidious and Kenobi could have won with a single Saber then they should have proven it by doing just that! But they didn't. The writers specifically had those defeats taking place with 2 Sabers.

Think about it!

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So they haven't beaten anybody of note really then? Okay I was just making sure I wasn't missing a fight or something.

Well Maul himself completely stomped Opress, who in turn Battered Ventress. So Maul and Opress are clearly a much bigger threat than the duo Dooku faced- Ventress and Opress.

If those 2 challenged him what do you think Maul and Opress would do to him? And guess what? Dooku was limited to fighting with a Single Saber in that fight.

Any of this making sense to you yet?

Contrary to common belief the difference between Mace and Dooku is not that large.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
By feats Mace wins correct? So what do we have on the side of the brothers that gives you a little idea they win.. ummmm.. ummmm.. THE HAVE TWO SABERS TO MACE's ONE... Ummm nah, not good enough.

Sidious beat the duo with 2 Sabers and Far superior force powers to what Mace has.

So I'm sorry but you don't just get to come in here and say "Lol Mace stomps every time because Sidious did."

You have to prove it. Which you haven't done. At all.

For me, the two sabers were about symmetry more than anything else. And an excuse to show something cool, also.

Originally posted by -Pr-
For me, the two sabers were about symmetry more than anything else. And an excuse to show something cool, also.

Well yeah they obviously wanted cool looking fights.

And I think the symmetry thing also equates to the Combatant keeping proper balance when fighting off 2 Opponents on either side of him.

When the skill gap isn't very large, sure. With someone like Windu though, who is supposed to be streets ahead of either man, I can't imagine him feeling like he's at a disadvantage with only one lightsaber. That and his force abilities.

Originally posted by -Pr-
When the skill gap isn't very large, sure. With someone like Windu though, who is supposed to be streets ahead of either man, I can't imagine him feeling like he's at a disadvantage with only one lightsaber. That and his force abilities.

I just think the better comparison is Dooku vs Opress & Ventress. As Dooku was forced to fight them both off with 1 Blade(he never actually uses 2).

The gap between Dooku and Mace isn't that large Imho. Whilst the gap between Maul and Ventress is likely much larger.

And I'm not sure how much help Mace's force abilities will be against these 2 who both actually have some beastly feats themselves.

He's better then either brother for sure. But I doubt he'll be tossing them both around the way Sidious was. Or knocking Maul out with a single force push. And he obviously won't be holding Opress at bay with Lightning like Dooku was.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I just posted you a damn video clip of where he got STOMPED when forced to face both brothers with a Single Lightsaber.

Even in the Same damn episode where he beat the Brothers, he fled from them when he was facing them with One, AND specifically grabbed Adi's Lightsaber before he fled.

And when Maul said he's no match for them BOTH, Kenobi ignited BOTH Sabers before he says "You are Mistaken."

You have a strange definition of Zero evidence.

If Sidious and Kenobi could have won with a single Saber then they should have proven it by doing just that! But they didn't. The writers specifically had those defeats taking place with 2 Sabers.

Think about it!

Well Maul himself completely stomped Opress, who in turn Battered Ventress. So Maul and Opress are clearly a much bigger threat than the duo Dooku faced- Ventress and Opress.

If those 2 challenged him what do you think Maul and Opress would do to him? And guess what? Dooku was limited to fighting with a Single Saber in that fight.

Any of this making sense to you yet?

Contrary to common belief the difference between Mace and Dooku is not that large.

Sidious beat the duo with 2 Sabers and Far superior force powers to what Mace has.

So I'm sorry but you don't just get to come in here and say "Lol Mace stomps every time because Sidious did."

You have to prove it. Which you haven't done. At all.

Come on buddy.. you're better than this... Let's explain the PLAIN facts here...

Kenobi WAS able to defend himself and NOT be killed with ONE saber correct? So if Kenobi can defend himself without getting killed with one saber... Mace can do ever better right?

Kenobi was able to defeat both brothers with two sabers.. but there is ZERO proof he NEEDED two sabers to do so. Him not winning with one.. is just that.. he just wasn't able to win at that point. As we know Kenobi's style is to give ground and fight on the defensive till the opponent gets tired or makes a mistake. Thus, it's perfectly plausible that Kenobi could've eventually beaten both brothers with one saber.

We KNOW Sids didn't need two sabers to beat them... Shit he ddn't even need ONE saber. He has the force powers to pwn them without them even getting near them. So it's a mistake to even think he needed two sabers let alone one. He need no sabers if we're being brutally honest here. A sids fighting all out needs none. MACE is close to that level. Sure, he doesn't have the force powers of Sids.. but he's better in the force than the brothers and better in sabers than the brothers.

He also doesn't have a retreating waiting for an opening style like Kenobi.. Which means he'll go for the kill as quick and easily as possible and try and finish it quick. So what we have is...

Kenobi able to fight both brothers with one saber. Not win, but hold his own and possibly win down the road.

We have sids able to beat both brothers with zero sabers even needed.

So, we'll say Mace fights somewhere between them.. i.e. one saber is all that is needed.

Your whole line if thinking is illogical as well buddy. IF he was able to beat him that way he would've. That doesn't work in movies or comics. That is like saying Magneto couldn't kill Wolv or Storm or Rogue with mere gestures or throwing hundreds of objects at him.. cause IF HE COULD he would've. NO.. JUST NO.. WE KNOW he could do just that.. but then there would be no movie. You can't asume your own conclusion and absent of proof isn't proof. Two fallacies you're trying to pedal here. Come on big Darth.