Originally posted by -Pr-
I don't think people seriously assume Mace will win because Kenobi did so well. They assume he'll win because he's a vastly superior duelist and force user to Maul/Oppress/Obi-Wan, according to the books/movies/shows.
Well KT did actually say that because Obi-Wan won Mace will stomp.
My point remains, that Mace isn't greater than Dooku by a mile in Sabers, and certainly not in the Force.
So I think Dooku's fight against Ventress and Opress is the better comparison.
A peak performance by a dual saber wielding Obi-Wan is too circumstantial to judge these things. It proves that Obi-Wan is a great top-tier duelist. Not that Mace, Dooku Anakin/Vader (pretty much any main character) can stomp these 2 combined.
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiFurther, you misrepresented what I said about for visual effect. I'M NOT SAYING KENOBI DID SO FOR VISUAL EFFECT. The DIRECTOR did so for visual effect is what I'm saying. I also concended that Yes, even with that, two Sabers clearly allow Kenobi to go more on the offensive than with one. That should be obvious and why he was able to win. With one saber.. it would look like a much different fight. So if that is what you're saying.. we're in a agreement.
That I can agree with. But it still shows Kenobi used 2 Sabers in that scenario because it was useful to him.
From there the assumption would also be it would be useful to Sidious which is why he likely used them.
Just because it looks cool you still need an In Universe explanation. Otherwise you wouldn't like it if I said Kenobi only beat Anakin because the plot required it would you? 🙂
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
My only point is, he didn't neccesarily NEED two sabers to eventually win.
This I doubt. Maul was beginning to overpower Kenobi with the Force. He certainly wouldn't want a prolonged outdoor duel with Maul and Opress who have both shown beastly force feats.
That's where context and environment comes into these things. And from what the novel says even in Sabers it seemed pretty likley Kenobi would have died if he carried on fighting against the Brothers the way he was out outside- On the defense with 1 Saber.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No. Was making a point which you obviously missed.
Um, no. I acknowledge the fact that Maul is a very skilled fighter indeed, but that has nothing to do with being superior over Windu. Windu is clearly a very skilled fighter, as well. Your point?
For a guy who claims to know about Vapaad you have a poor recollection of how the fight was described in the ROTS novel.Mace and Sidious were described as fighting as equals with Vapaad in place. His edge was Via Shatterpoint. Some will claim he won by gaining the tactical advantage since he won when Sidious turned some of his Force Speed into Force Grip out near the window ledge.
If it weren't for Vaapad, Windu would've been killed before he even had the chance to expose Sidious' weaknesses via Shatterpoint. And even if he would've managed to expose them without Vaapad keeping Sidious at bay, chances are Shatterpoint alone would not have been enough to defeat him. Vaapad is what kept him going and going; it's essentially what kept him alive. So, in a sense, by using Vaapad he managed to defeat Sidious. Without it, he most probably would've failed.
EDIT- I've said before that no matter your lightsaber form, the important and decisive factor when determining the outcome of a fight is each individual's prowess, skill, and mastery of the Force. This said, however, I believe that Vaapad, due to it's unique nature, is the exception to this rule, as seen against Sidious.
Oh really? Please point me to the part of the fight where he was "Saber Stomping" Both brothers together.
I'm not going to discuss this any further. Multiple times has this been debated against you, and impasse was reached long ago. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
What because he's sparring he can't use Shatterpoint? Yeah right. Even Yoda considers Mace as Dooku's equal in Sabers as of the Clone Wars.
Yoda is not the omniscient narrator. But yes, they were indeed considered equals.
However, sparring is not the same to real life, fighting-for-your-life battles. They cannot be compared. As I said, sparring against each other is sparring. You never go all-out when sparring, or it wouldn't be sparring...
So prove Shatterpoint is some kind of guaranteed victory in Lightsaber combat against any opponent.
Didn't you just say that they were fighting as equals and that 'his edge was via Shatterpoint'...?
Unless you are contradicting yourself, you're saying Shatterpoint can indeed be a decisive factor. So, yes, in this instance, you are correct.
Ergo, I am correct.
biscuits
And I never said that Shatterpoint guarantees victory. You just made that up.
Why would I listen to you when you deny Mace and Sidious were equals which the novel makes perfectly clear.
No, they're not equals. Sidious is superior. The only two reasons Windu was able to even keep pace with Sidious are called Vaapad and Shatterpoint.