Maul Brothers VS. Mace Windu

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Come on buddy.. you're better than this... Let's explain the PLAIN facts here...

Kenobi WAS able to defend himself and NOT be killed with ONE saber correct? So if Kenobi can defend himself without getting killed with one saber... Mace can do ever better right?

You do realize Kenobi is the Master of the most Defensive Form right?

Also I'm sure Mace could do that for a while with both Opponents right in front of him. But the chances are they're going to surround him from either side pretty soon into the fight.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Kenobi was able to defeat both brothers with two sabers.. but there is ZERO proof he NEEDED two sabers to do so.

So why did he use 2 when it's his style to use 1? Please answer this.

Was he just showing off? Did he just want to look cool? What was his reason.

And I've provided proof. He's faced both brothers TWICE before with a Single saber. The first time he got completely stomped. The second time he ran for his life.

Please explain to me why he was only able to defeat them with 2 Sabers. And why he switched styles from 1 Saber to 2 when in for the fight of his life.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Him not winning with one.. is just that.. he just wasn't able to win at that point. As we know Kenobi's style is to give ground and fight on the defensive till the opponent gets tired or makes a mistake. Thus, it's perfectly plausible that Kenobi could've eventually beaten both brothers with one saber.

Even if this is true (which I don't believe it is) how can you deny that 2 Sabers helped him. Going from "Plausible to eventually beating them both," to "Stomping one of them whilst besting the other in under a minute."

You don't think that's a huge difference?

But I don't buy it, simply because Even Sidious didn't exactly "Saber" stomp both brothers together. And even Sidious CHOSE to use 2 Sabers when fighting them both.

I don't know why people can't see this. The indication intended is perfectly clear in those episodes.

Either give a Reasonable explantaion on why BOTH Kenobi and Sidious chose to face both Brothers wielding Dual Sabers, or stop arguing the point.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I just think the better comparison is Dooku vs Opress & Ventress. As Dooku was forced to fight them both off with 1 Blade(he never actually uses 2).

The gap between Dooku and Mace isn't that large Imho. Whilst the gap between Maul and Ventress is likely much larger.

And I'm not sure how much help Mace's force abilities will be against these 2 who both actually have some beastly feats themselves.

He's better then either brother for sure. But I doubt he'll be tossing them both around the way Sidious was. Or knocking Maul out with a single force push. And he obviously won't be holding Opress at bay with Lightning like Dooku was.

I don't know if anything they did compares to Mace vs the droid army in the CW show.

Or is that not considered canon any longer?

Mace is around Dooku level, I agree, but I think Ventress isn't that far away from Maul. Her and Obi-Wan did a decent job against the brothers when they fought on that ship.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You do realize Kenobi is the Master of the most Defensive Form right?

Also I'm sure Mace could do that for a while with both Opponents right in front of him. But the chances are they're going to surround him from either side pretty soon into the fight.

So why did he use 2 when it's his style to use 1? Please answer this.

Was he just showing off? Did he just want to look cool? What was his reason.

And I've provided proof. He's faced both brothers TWICE before with a Single saber. The first time he got completely stomped. The second time he ran for his life.

Please explain to me why he was only able to defeat them with 2 Sabers. And why he switched styles from 1 Saber to 2 when in for the fight of his life.

Even if this is true (which I don't believe it is) how can you deny that 2 Sabers helped him. Going from "Plausible to eventually beating them both," to "Stomping one of them whilst besting the other in under a minute."

You don't think that's a huge difference?

But I don't buy it, simply because Even Sidious didn't exactly "Saber" stomp both brothers together. And even Sidious CHOSE to use 2 Sabers when fighting them both.

I don't know why people can't see this. The indication intended is perfectly clear in those episodes.

Either give a Reasonable explantaion on why BOTH Kenobi and Sidious chose to face both Brothers wielding Dual Sabers, or stop arguing the point.

tbh, I don't think that's proof that he needed two sabers to fight them. After all, this is the same guy who regularly fights Grievous and Ventress.

So, DP.

You've decided to ignore the fact that Mace has Shatterpoint and Vaapad.

How sad.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I don't know if anything they did compares to Mace vs the droid army in the CW show.

Or is that not considered canon any longer?

According to the Director of the new show, the old show exaggerated force feats. No one will be doing those kinds of things in the new series. Not even Sidious or Yoda.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Mace is around Dooku level, I agree, but I think Ventress isn't that far away from Maul. Her and Obi-Wan did a decent job against the brothers when they fought on that ship.

I think the difference between Ventress and Maul is larger than the difference between Dooku and Mace personally.

In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Maul will be challenging Dooku alone in the next season.

Originally posted by -Pr-
tbh, I don't think that's proof that he needed two sabers to fight them. After all, this is the same guy who regularly fights Grievous and Ventress.

What about this from the novel based on the episodes:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

"Obi-Wan senses it coming and whirled with blinding speed, parrying Maul's attack. Then he jumped aside, knowing it would be a fatal mistake to be caught between two Sith "

That shows when Obi-Wan was fighting them both off with 1 Saber in his usual Defensive fashion he knew if he gets stuck between them then he's screwed. But later with Dual Sabers, he was stuck between them but was comfortably able to deflect both their strikes coming from Opposite sides simultaneously.

Then there's this before he fights them in the cave:

”Obi-Wan knew the Sith would expect him to take up a defensive stance in an effort to keep them at bay. But he also knew that tactic would give him no hope to prevail- he would be worn down until his guard slipped and then he would die, like Adi had.

That shows he knows if he fights them the way he was doing outside he'll get killed.

And finally, why was he even using 2 if it didn't help? He’s used to fighting with 1 after all.

If we look at this from the novel:
”Surrender,” Maul said quietly. “We are two, and you are no match for us both.”
Obi-Wan ignited both Adi’s lightsaber and his own.
“You are mistaken,” he said- and then he hurled himself at the two Sith, both sabers flashing in his hands.

And this from the Supervising Director:

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVQitRfBWcI

Dave Filoni
At 10:32

"What I really took away from the screening last night though was that when Obi-Wan rose up with his 2 Lightsabers and Defeated Maul and Opress the whole place went nuts.."

Now I might be crazy but him specifying Kenobi using 2 Lightsabers to Defeat Maul and Opress seems to suggest Kenobi having 2 Lightsabers might have had something to do with defeating Maul and Opress.

.. Then I think it’s strongly implied there that with 2 Sabers he’s capable of matching both Sith. With 1 he can take either one out, but wouldn’t have faired too well against both Imho.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
So, DP.

You've decided to ignore the fact that Mace has Shatterpoint and Vaapad.

How sad.

Ok then your ignoring how Maul has completely mastered Juyo and how his combat skills have always been said to be unrivaled.

How very sad indeed.

Vapaad made him Sidious's equal. And since Sidious wasn't exactly Saber Stomping both brothers together, I'm not sure why I should believe that Mace will when he's restricted to 1 Saber.

Shatterpoint has never been a guaranteed victory.

Believe it or not, Mace had both Vapaad and Shatterpoint at the time when a less powerful Dooku used to outspar him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You do realize Kenobi is the Master of the most Defensive Form right?

Also I'm sure Mace could do that for a while with both Opponents right in front of him. But the chances are they're going to surround him from either side pretty soon into the fight.

So why did he use 2 when it's his style to use 1? Please answer this.

Was he just showing off? Did he just want to look cool? What was his reason.

And I've provided proof. He's faced both brothers TWICE before with a Single saber. The first time he got completely stomped. The second time he ran for his life.

Please explain to me why he was only able to defeat them with 2 Sabers. And why he switched styles from 1 Saber to 2 when in for the fight of his life.

Even if this is true (which I don't believe it is) how can you deny that 2 Sabers helped him. Going from "Plausible to eventually beating them both," to "Stomping one of them whilst besting the other in under a minute."

You don't think that's a huge difference?

But I don't buy it, simply because Even Sidious didn't exactly "Saber" stomp both brothers together. And even Sidious CHOSE to use 2 Sabers when fighting them both.

I don't know why people can't see this. The indication intended is perfectly clear in those episodes.

Either give a Reasonable explantaion on why BOTH Kenobi and Sidious chose to face both Brothers wielding Dual Sabers, or stop arguing the point.

The chances of that happening are no greater than Mace killng one of them very quickly thanks to Shatterpoint and Vaapad... That is just as likely as him being surrounded.

I think he used two more because they wanted to fight to look flashy and cool. I think more than anything that was the reason why... and not he NEEDED two or else he had no chance. Nobody is denying that it would be more difficult with just one saber Darth.. but being more difficult isn't the name as needing two.. nor is it the same as impossible with one.

To go further on cinematic effect... We all know sids didn't need ANY sabers at all to defeat them. He could simply force pwn them with ease... Yet, he didn't do that.. they had him fight a saber fight for purposes of flash and to add drama. This could also be the case with Kenobi.. not NEEDING two sabers but it shure made it look cooler.

I think I answered your question already... Having two made it easier for him to go on the offensive and more dramatic effect. Those would be the reasons why two were shown to be used. Yet, that doesn't mean Mace needs two.. They have two completly different styles. Mace is more offensive and more powerful with his strikes... Kenobi being able to beat them with two.. doesn't mean Mace needed two. Style make fights..

Please stop bringing up Sids NEEDING two sabers.. He didn't even NEED ONE SABER to beat them. This actually hurts your argument more than it's helping it.. I don't know if you realize that yet, but it's not helping you here. It only reinforces the premises that it was done more for effect than it was because it was needed.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ok then your ignoring how Maul has completely mastered Juyo and how his combat skills have always been said to be unrivaled.

How very sad indeed.

Vapaad made him Sidious's equal. And since Sidious wasn't exactly Saber Stomping both brothers together, I'm not sure why I should believe that Mace will when he's restricted to 1 Saber.

Shatterpoint has never been a guaranteed victory.

Believe it or not, Mace had both Vapaad and Shatterpoint at the time when a less powerful Dooku used to outspar him.

First sparring is just that.. sparring. that is why people don't care about boxers sparring in the gym or sparring in MMA.. it's not a real fight. However, I would like to see the narration stating Mace had mastered both Shatterpoint and Vaapad during said sparring session.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ok then your ignoring how Maul has completely mastered Juyo and how his combat skills have always been said to be unrivaled.

How very sad indeed.

What the hell, DP.

So, because it has always been said that his skills are unrivaled Maul is the better combatant? Seriously? That's your logic?

Vapaad made him Sidious's equal. And since Sidious wasn't exactly Saber Stomping both brothers together, I'm not sure why I should believe that Mace will when he's restricted to 1 Saber.

First of all, no, Vaapad didn't make him Sidious equal. I'm sure you recall he actually defeated Sidious. By using Vaapad he actually overpowered Sidious. One of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time. What does that tell you? That he'll be defeated by two much, much less powerful individuals? C'mon.

This is not using A>B>C. This is called using common sense and logic.

The one using A>B>C logic here is you. You're saying that since Sidious 'wasn't exactly saber stomping both brothers together' (which happens to be completely wrong because he was), then Mace can't do it, either.

Shatterpoint has never been a guaranteed victory.

Believe it or not, Mace had both Vapaad and Shatterpoint at the time when a less powerful Dooku used to outspar him.

As mentioned before, sparring is just that. Sparring . It is in no way an indicator of how both duelists would fare had the fight been real. That's a terrible argument.

And you clearly don't know how Vaapad works, and have clearly ignored my explanations on this matter.

Vaapad is literally designed to fight against dark siders, not light siders. That is exactly why he managed to defeat Sidious. It channels the user's inner darkness as he accepts the opponent's rage and inherent darkness. So, even if your 'sparring' argument made any sense, it actually doesn't. Because Dooku was a Jedi at that time. A light sider, which means Vaapad was not as effective.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
What the hell, DP.

So, because it has always been said that his skills are unrivaled Maul is the better combatant? Seriously? That's your logic?

No. Was making a point which you obviously missed.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
First of all, no, Vaapad didn't make him Sidious equal. I'm sure you recall he actually defeated Sidious. By using Vaapad he actually overpowered Sidious. One of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time. What does that tell you? That he'll be defeated by two much, much less powerful individuals? C'mon.

For a guy who claims to know about Vapaad you have a poor recollection of how the fight was described in the ROTS novel.

Mace and Sidious were described as fighting as equals with Vapaad in place. His edge was Via Shatterpoint. Some will claim he won by gaining the tactical advantage since he won when Sidious turned some of his Force Speed into Force Grip out near the window ledge.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
You're saying that since Sidious 'wasn't exactly saber stomping both brothers together' (which happens to be completely wrong because he was),

Oh really? Please point me to the part of the fight where he was "Saber Stomping" Both brothers together.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
As mentioned before, sparring is just that. Sparring . It is in no way an indicator of how both duelists would fare had the fight been real. That's a terrible argument.

What because he's sparring he can't use Shatterpoint? Yeah right. Even Yoda considers Mace as Dooku's equal in Sabers as of the Clone Wars.

So prove Shatterpoint is some kind of guaranteed victory in Lightsaber combat against any opponent.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
And you clearly don't know how Vaapad works, and have clearly ignored my explanations on this matter.

Why would I listen to you when you deny Mace and Sidious were equals which the novel makes perfectly clear.

(The script actually shows that if anyone was doing the overpowering it was Sidious until Mace kicked him.)

Should I just say no to most of that? I'll just let my last post stand.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Should I just say no to most of that? I'll just let my last post stand.

I think you should respond to it...

Just saying

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

I think he used two more because they wanted to fight to look flashy and cool. I think more than anything that was the reason why...

Omg. Kenobi's in for the fight of his life and he decides to look flashy. I'm done on this point.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Please stop bringing up Sids NEEDING two sabers.. He didn't even NEED ONE SABER to beat them. This actually hurts your argument more than it's helping it.. I don't know if you realize that yet, but it's not helping you here. It only reinforces the premises that it was done more for effect than it was because it was needed.

I don't think Sidious NEEDED 2. But if it helped Kenobi I don't see why it wouldn't help Sidious.

Anyway your right it was just all for show. Kenobi can stomp the Brothers with one Saber. Forget all the evidence from the novel I presented that Kenobi was clearly going to lose in the outside battle.

Compare Obi-Wan's smackdown of the Brothers to Dooku vs Opress and Ventress and I think it's pretty clear Obi-Wan >>> Dooku.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
First sparring is just that.. sparring. that is why people don't care about boxers sparring in the gym or sparring in MMA.. it's not a real fight. However, I would like to see the narration stating Mace had mastered both Shatterpoint and Vaapad during said sparring session.

Read Shatterpoint. He's been amazing at using that since he was a child. You don't think he had fully mastered it by TPM era?

And Mizukage Yoda has the source that shows Mace had already invented Vapaad in that time period.

And hey it's not just the sparring matches. Dark Rendezvous calls Dooku and Mace equal in Saber combat in the Clone Wars time period.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Should I just say no to most of that? I'll just let my last post stand.

What now?

You think Mace stomped Sidious or something?

I have to wonder, then... Are we arguing that Obi-Wan is a more accomplished duelist with two sabers than with one?

Originally posted by -Pr-
I have to wonder, then... Are we arguing that Obi-Wan is a more accomplished duelist with two sabers than with one?

I was arguing the episode, novel and commentary seemed to indicate he could only defeat Both brothers with 2. Im not saying it gives a special advantage against one opponent.

But I'm done with the point. It makes no difference which just means Kenobi's performance against Brothers > Dooku's performance against Ventress and Opress.

One good performance doesn't change the average, so it's not like it's a big deal.

Originally posted by -Pr-
One good performance doesn't change the average, so it's not like it's a big deal.

Then people shouldn't assume Mace would stomp just because Kenobi beat them once.

It's why I try to consider full context of fights. Force powers used, weapons style/form used, the environment, tactics e.t.c.

Because it all makes a difference, so it's not as simple as Mace beat Sidious therefore he stomps here.

I don't think people seriously assume Mace will win because Kenobi did so well. They assume he'll win because he's a vastly superior duelist and force user to Maul/Oppress/Obi-Wan, according to the books/movies/shows.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Then people shouldn't assume Mace would stomp just because Kenobi beat them once.

It's why I try to consider full context of fights. Force powers used, weapons style/form used, the environment, tactics e.t.c.

Because it all makes a difference, so it's not as simple as Mace beat Sidious therefore he stomps here.

Well I agree with your last post.. and I don't think I said otherwise. No one doesn't mean the other is a certainty.. Fair enough? However, mace beating Sids.. and sids beating this duo.. is certainly an good indicator that Mace stands a good chance to win. Nobody is saying he would stomp here.. is that why you have your feathers ruffled here? Okay, he won't stomp them. However, it's my belief that Mace is a peer of Sids in most ways.. which thus will allow him, like sids, to win after a good fight? Good enough?

Further, you misrepresented what I said about for visual effect. I'M NOT SAYING KENOBI DID SO FOR VISUAL EFFECT. The DIRECTOR did so for visual effect is what I'm saying. I also concended that Yes, even with that, two Sabers clearly allow Kenobi to go more on the offensive than with one. That should be obvious and why he was able to win. With one saber.. it would look like a much different fight. So if that is what you're saying.. we're in a agreement. My only point is, he didn't neccesarily NEED two sabers to eventually win.