Originally posted by jinzin
Good..... F***ing. Lord...
This thread... The blatant ignorance and rampant stupidity on virtually every. single. page of this thread is beyond mind boggling. It's been quite some time since I've been exposed to such a facepalm inducing debacle that I hardly know where to begin.Hmmm Okay... How about here: WHY IN THEE BLUE BALLS is Bullseye being brought up in this thread and what does he prove to ANYONE exactly?
First off, Bullseye *is* about a B-level villain and was running in the B+ ranks when he beat Elektra. The one legit win he has over Elektra happened decades ago before multiple upgrades concerning her training among other things. When it comes to Elektra specifically, Bullseye has trained for MONTHS to fight her (specifically) using footage, holographic training sequences, and insider info from the hand. He automatically had a mental edge over her seeing as he had killed her in the past. The minute she got over that little mental hump, she utterly, utterly stomped him in about 30 seconds in a one-sided beatdown that could've only been more embarrassing had Elektra been poisoned, fatigued from being on the run, and laced from head to toe with wounds and injuries from both mental and physical tortures internal and external... Oh wait.. That's right, that's what happened the *next* time they fought. 😐
The only other impressive thing that Bullseye has done against Elektra was fighting her and DD at the same time, which was retconned into her being a skrull... Which incidentally was proven to be ridiculously inferior to the original by comparison (as they always are).
So we look at her fights with Bullseye? Okay, what are we supposed to get from that? He has no bearing on anything remotely Elektra related past the early to mid 80's.
(And while we're at it, bringing up a Bullseye loss against f***ing Brock Rumlow in an attempt to downplay Elektra through Lester is beyond ridiculous. Crossbones is insanely skilled [TM praised him as being his best student at one point], nearly as strong as Cap in a fight, and has Punisher like durability/damage soak, so GTFO with that shit.)
Okay, how about Black Widow? B-lister in skills?... Maybe. We know she was apparently on a level skilled enough to compete with a classic version of Wolverine when she was just a child having direct training under him. She's also ridiculously enhanced. She's blitzed a room consisting of Psylocke, Jean Grey, Viper, Spider Woman, Yukio, Rogue, and Tyger Tiger. She has humiliated other high grade B listers in combat making them look silly. Having a little bit of a stalemate-like scenario with Black Widow (in frankly lax combat), is far from an example that would put her comfortabily under Shiva and even then, it's still arguably a low showing for her (Elektra) anyways.
Hercules.. *sigh* Hercules has already been stated and proven to be > Thor in CQC. Even if he was only *as* good as Thor that would be more than enough to consider him a h2h specialist, it's what he does. He's no slouch by *any* means in that regard and to use his ability to parry a couple of Elektra's half-hearted attacks in a *fight* where both parties are attempting to talk each other down as a measure to lowball Elektra? I could give myself brain damage from the level of facepalm that induces. Seriously... Absurd.
People claiming Daredevil as another reason that brings the calibre of Elektra down; clearly just another example in this thread of people having no clue what the hell they are talking about. First off, Matt Murdock is not only the byproduct of the same training undergone by Elektra so he's intimately familiar with a large degree of her playbook, but he's also got a superpower that gives him sensory levels completely beyond anything human and something that keeps him on a reflexive level close to F-ing Spiderman. His agility is on par with Nightwing (and in all likelyhood superior,) and his strength levels allow him to handle a 400 pound barbell like a bo-staff, bound 25 feet into the air, and send Classic Sabretooth through multiple brick walls during combat with punches (a version of Creed who both Silver Sable *and* an enhanced Black Cat said was like hitting a brick wall himself.). Then we have his sheer skill which is on the mid to lower end of the A-list tier.
Now... Not only does Elektra have a mental handicap when it comes to Murdock, but it's to such an excessive level that even seeing someone entirely different *use* his fighting style was enough to give her a mental breakdown.
AND EVEN THEN... She has regularly humiliated DD by short comparison, including confrontations when he's enraged and she's holding back.Daredevil has straight up incapacitated Spider-man in a purely physical confrontation. He would wreck Batman in a straight up fist fight. That alone is more than enough reason to suggest that Shiva isn't on Elektra's level and that isn't even getting into the real bread and butter of her character or abilities.
..........Aside from the fact that Elektra has put high level characters like Daredevil, Taskmaster, Bullseye, Silver Samurai, Paladin, Zaran, Razorfist, and yes even The Beast on the defensive end of CQC battles........
WOLVERINE. Really, that's all I even REMOTELY need to say in this thread to give the nod to Elektra's credentials. She's beaten Wolverine in a straight fight, she's stalemated him while she was being mind controlled, and she's started to secure an advantage against him while he was being mind controlled himself.
In terms of the MA tier list on Marvel Earth, there's almost no character who has a win column as long or as impressive as his. He's tooled high ranking third and second tiers like Shatterstar, and Blade. He's beaten handily first tiers like DD, and Shang Chi. He's gotten the better of top tiers like Iron Fist and Captain America. And he's utterly humiliated uber tiers like Ogun, and Stick. Wolverine is always impressed with Elektra, even threatened by her. There's a reason for that, and it isn't because she's a B-lister.I understand that Shiva's *supposed* to have this spellbindingly enigmatic MA reputation, but against someone of Elektra's calibre who considers techniques that leave guys like Shang Chi wiped out "simple" or "easy", Shiva is just reaching out of her league. Elektra would win.
👆
KMC Wars: Episode VI - Return of Jinzin
Originally posted by Golgo13
What has Elektra done with her TP?
well, just to name a couple--she's taken outright control of some ninjas, she's mind controlled shield agents, shown telepathy with stick, and used her tp to make herself invisible. she's not prof x, but she is pretty skilled. certainly skilled enough to make a difference here if all powers are in play. i don't necessarily think she needs tp--her physical skills and power are enough to make this fight a question based on what i've seen of shiva--but factoring it in, elektra would certainly seem to have the upperhand imo.
Originally posted by Golgo13
Val has good will power. He has fought off tp from Saturn girl before. What makes Marvels standard MAs more skilled than DC?
Marvel MAs aren't necessarily better than DC's. The top tiers in Marvel are, in my opinion on the same level as theire DC equivalents. I reckon that Elektra vs Lady Shiva would be 5/5.
Originally posted by Golgo13
Val has good will power. He has fought off tp from Saturn girl before. What makes Marvels standard MAs more skilled than DC?
In a word? Powers.
Pretty much *every* elite Marvel MA has powers or abilities that dwarf their DC counterpart. Cassandra is as much of a threat as she is to DC top tiers in part because of her cognitive abilities and body reading skill set. She's obviously still quite skilled without that but definitely at a comparative disadvantage.
In Marvel all sorts of people have similar abilities to Cass and are still low level on the totem poll at best (Echo).
In Marvel, almost every single MA has some superhuman abilities to go along *with* their MA training and skill. The skill level of every MA contending for the Marvel top spots has to be at boss levels just to compete in those conditions.
For instance, a third stringer like Shatterstar still has enhanced speed, reflexes, agility, and a cognitive ability that allows him mastery over any cqc weapon, He has insane feats of skill, overcoming superhuman opponents with those attributes that would make him a heavy hitter in DC's MA tier list, and he can't even contend with people in the first tier of Marvel MA for more than 3 panels. 😬
As such, the higher the skill level the more anime-like abilities Marvel MA's are generally granted. Iron-Fist's Iron Fist is a byproduct of his training. It's not really a superpower. He can also use chi like spiritual pressure to cut through opponents at a range.
Shang Chi has similar abilities and even random Hand ninja have skill-induced telepathy, TK, strength augmentation, unbreakable skin etc etc...
I mean, let's look at one example...
Batman gets paired up with Cap quite often but Cap frankly has more experience, and is augmented as a flat out superhuman across the board. Batman is at a huge disadvantage in unarmed combat.
So Daredevil would make a better analogy for Batman, but as I suggested before Daredevil's agility skill-set, compounded with his radar sense makes that an uphill battle for bruce too in strict h2h.
In all likelyhood Batman is far better matched up by someone like Moonknight. And despite some high showings, Moonknight is likely 3rd or 2nd tier vs. Marvel's top MA's.
I mean that's just one example but it illustrates the point. For almost every top DC ma, there's a marvel 2nd or 3rd string guy that can beat them, or give them a run for their money.
The same can't be said the other way around unless you compare every Marvel MA to pre-boot Val. *shrug*
With the *no powers* rule in effect it *might* become harder to tell, but most of the Marvel MA's who *have* powers got them through MA training... like Elektra.
Originally posted by Golgo13
What has Elektra done with her TP?
She's blocked Jean Grey from being able to identify who she was. Telepathically communicated with Logan (which would mean she had to get past his TP blockers to do so), and put Nick Fury under an illusion for half a comic iirc. That's just stuff off the top of my head. But Leonidas wrote some examples as well.
Originally posted by iceman24567
Why does tp matter in a strictly h2h fight? Shiva wins
If Elektra assaulted Shiva mentally or clouded her mind while throwing punches at her face, I imagine that TP would begin to matter. If Elektra reads Shiva's mind ala Mr. X, I imagine that would also matter.
But you're right, I would hesitate to say the tp matters as much as Elektra's superior speed, strength, durability, and chi amping.
Originally posted by jinzin
In a word? Powers.Pretty much *every* elite Marvel MA has powers or abilities that dwarf their DC counterpart. Cassandra is as much of a threat as she is to DC top tiers in part because of her cognitive abilities and body reading skill set. She's obviously still quite skilled without that but definitely at a comparative disadvantage.
In Marvel all sorts of people have similar abilities to Cass and are still low level on the totem poll at best (Echo).
In Marvel, almost every single MA has some superhuman abilities to go along *with* their MA training and skill. The skill level of every MA contending for the Marvel top spots has to be at boss levels just to compete in those conditions.
For instance, a third stringer like Shatterstar still has enhanced speed, reflexes, agility, and a cognitive ability that allows him mastery over any cqc weapon, He has insane feats of skill, overcoming superhuman opponents with those attributes that would make him a heavy hitter in DC's MA tier list, and he can't even contend with people in the first tier of Marvel MA for more than 3 panels. 😬
As such, the higher the skill level the more anime-like abilities Marvel MA's are generally granted. Iron-Fist's Iron Fist is a byproduct of his training. It's not really a superpower. He can also use chi like spiritual pressure to cut through opponents at a range.
Shang Chi has similar abilities and even random Hand ninja have skill-induced telepathy, TK, strength augmentation, unbreakable skin etc etc...
I mean, let's look at one example...
Batman gets paired up with Cap quite often but Cap frankly has more experience, and is augmented as a flat out superhuman across the board. Batman is at a huge disadvantage in unarmed combat.
So Daredevil would make a better analogy for Batman, but as I suggested before Daredevil's agility skill-set, compounded with his radar sense makes that an uphill battle for bruce too in strict h2h.
In all likelyhood Batman is far better matched up by someone like Moonknight. And despite some high showings, Moonknight is likely 3rd or 2nd tier vs. Marvel's top MA's.I mean that's just one example but it illustrates the point. For almost every top DC ma, there's a marvel 2nd or 3rd string guy that can beat them, or give them a run for their money.
The same can't be said the other way around unless you compare every Marvel MA to pre-boot Val. *shrug*With the *no powers* rule in effect it *might* become harder to tell, but most of the Marvel MA's who *have* powers got them through MA training... like Elektra.
I can give you super soldiers/MA with powers as well. DC has 4 Karate Kids that would dwarf your standard Marvel MA's.
Originally posted by jinzin
She's blocked Jean Grey from being able to identify who she was. Telepathically communicated with Logan (which would mean she had to get past his TP blockers to do so), and put Nick Fury under an illusion for half a comic iirc. That's just stuff off the top of my head. But Leonidas wrote some examples as well.
I'm talking about giving her the advantage in battle. Has she ever read top tier MA's movements? Mind wiped someone?
Originally posted by Golgo13
I can give you super soldiers/MA with powers as well. DC has 4 Karate Kids that would dwarf your standard Marvel MA's.
Sure you can, but then they fall flat on skill level. In terms of sheer skill, Deathstroke isn't on the level of his counterparts either, Cap and Wolverine would destroy him skill for skill *and* have better enhancements anyways.
As I already said, DC pretty much *has* to defect to Karate Kid, but then we aren't talking about a standard anymore, no?
As for Elektra's TP. I think she's done something like that once iirc. Other than that she's never try tried far as I know.
Originally posted by jinzin
Sure you can, but then they fall flat on skill level. In terms of sheer skill, Deathstroke isn't on the level of his counterparts either, Cap and Wolverine would destroy him skill for skill *and* have better enhancements anyways.As I already said, DC pretty much *has* to defect to Karate Kid, but then we aren't talking about a standard anymore, no?
As for Elektra's TP. I think she's done something like that once iirc. Other than that she's never try tried far as I know.
Guys like Sensei, Rose Wilson, Midnighter, Grifter, Azrael, Constantine Drakon, Black Canary are at the top of my list, personally. And are quite a bit more powerful than a lot of Marvel's MA'.
It was implied that she read Wolverine's movements in Imperfects telepathically. She mind wiped a shield agent into thinking he killed her in her old ongoing. He even wrote a field report about it. She has Fury believing she was defeated and captured while he was many miles away watching the fight on a cam feed. She switched brains for 4 months with that woman in Elektra: Assassin. Killed a man in the same series via psychic feedback.
Good list of power DC MA's but it doesn't revert my original point which is that the focus, and level of standard Marvel MA's is typically higher than DC.
Azrael (I'm assuming we are talking non armored) would be picked apart by guys like Shang Chi, and The Cat. Even *with* armor, people like Misty Knight, (given her arm has technopathy) and Silver Samurai are likely to steal the majority from JPV. None of them are top tier level characters of the Marvel MA world.
Black Canary has a decent powerset to go with her skill but would get wtf stomped by Psylocke, Kitty Pride, or Typhoid Mary. The first two with powers on *or* off and again the none of them are top tier MA's (Psylocke should be but writers often forget how skilled or powerful she *should* be).
Drakon's insanely fast but I would wager that Mr. X edges him out despite it, simply because of his telepathy. Both characters are roughly equivalent though and you're right to put Drakon in a top tier list.
Midnighter, like Drakon is a great combination of skill and super-abilities. Still though, I don't think he could hang with the likes of Gorgon. Brass, Rapture, and Blood Shadow would all be contenders as well simply based off telepathic power sets and skill sets alone.
Grifter wouldn't hold up against Shatterstar and would likely be outmatched by someone like Night Thrasher (And that's ignoring Night Thrasher's best). Both of those Marvel characters are barely mid level 3rd tiers.
Rose (I'm assuming you're talking about pre-boot) was pretty tough on paper but couldn't hold her salt against anyone with a name any time she was in a clinch. Fantomex, Agent Zero, or Taskmaster would all likely take the majority from her. X-23 for certain.
Sensei, I would consider in the "grandmaster" level of MA's not the standard, even so, he probably isn't on the level to deal with guys like Ogun, and Mandarin. Temugin and him are *perhaps* around equal levels. He also gets put into arguable battles with Master Po, and Stick. And probably still gets beat by 2nd tier badguys guys like Junzo or Steel Serpent at their best. *shrug*
Before this back and forth gets too crazy, I will say that DC has a whole host of cosmic-like MA's that really make this discussion complex but when it comes to their earthbound MA's, Shang Chi alone can likely beat or stalemate pretty much *every* earthbound standard MA DC has to offer and he's really not near the top of the Marvel totem pole. That should really be a telling statement here. I'm not sure that any of them can stand up to Wolverine, Elektra, Captain America, or Rand at their best. Would you really argue any differently?
Davos, second tier?
Wouldn't he be above Shang Chi, if for no other reason then that he has legitimate wins over Iron Fist and Spidey? The Cat, by contrast, couldn't really last against an all out Danny, and back in the day Cat and Shang Chi were treated as so close, they'd probably have killed each other if they'd fought...
He has legit wins over Iron Fist from some time ago. Has he beaten Danny recently though? (keeping in mind Danny has had significant skill upgrades since) And I would hardly say you need to be a top tier MA to get the best of Spidey in a h2h when he's not going all out. Silver Samurai beat him easily twice and nearly did it a third time and he's nowhere near top tier, though he does have superhuman stats.