Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, someone thought he was Batgirl level. Not surprised at how marvel MA's are wanked here.Someone who defeated Elektra twice.
So "Plot strikes again"? Would you stop whining about anything that doesn't paints Elektra in a good light. So now getting stalemated by hercules is like getting beaten by Prometheus, huh? LMAO.
Really? Did you by any means forget the shadowdragon fight or Supergirl fight?
Also want to know what she does to bullet-timers? Ask Katana
all along i've been asking for some displayed feats for shiva. still not seeing the superhuman level stuff displayed by elektra. i willingly acknowledge a ltd knowledge regarding shiva, so i'd like to see more. the above i don't find very helpful--katana was (a) beat up (b) caught unawares and (c) obviously had no clue what she was facing in terms of level of opponent, so i don't find that scene telling at all.
did you post the supergirl stuff you mentioned? that sounds impressive. or the shadowdragon stuff? still not sure how she would overcome elektra's tp advantage either.....
Yeah, uh, she beat up an invisible Shadowdragon with a stick she found. The same Shadowdragon whose armor can take hits from Superman. I shouldn't even have to say anything. It's in her respect thread. He's also ftl IIRC.
Shiva "used Supergirl's strength against her" and deflected her bum rush. She should have been paste.
abc logic if you think Shiva fighting Katana makes her fast enough to dodge a bullet. The problems with the encounter have already been spelled out by another poster.
But yeah, Kurawhatsit. The guy from Elektra v2? He never fought anybody else so whose to say he isn't an elite MA?
Originally posted by operator616
shiva wins easily
It's like I'm talking to rocks sometimes.
Originally posted by Konton
Yeah, uh, she beat up an invisible Shadowdragon with a stick she found. The same Shadowdragon whose armor can take hits from Superman. I shouldn't even have to say anything. It's in her respect thread. He's also ftl IIRC.Shiva "used Supergirl's strength against her" and deflected her bum rush. She should have been paste.
abc logic if you think Shiva fighting Katana makes her fast enough to dodge a bullet. The problems with the encounter have already been spelled out by another poster.
But yeah, Kurawhatsit. The guy from Elektra v2? He never fought anybody else so whose to say he isn't an elite MA?
It's like I'm talking to rocks sometimes.
so you're saying what? the shadowdragon scene is pis? i'll look and see if i can find it in the respect thread. the katana scene is pretty close to useless imo. still haven't seen anyone counter elektra's tp edge either.....
Originally posted by Philosophía
A little info on Shadowdraon, a martial artist wearing a technological armour enhacing his every physicall atribute. Confronts Superman. Notice how besides the heartbeat, he is invisible to Superman's senses, and uses a thunderclap to find him. And most of all, notice the insane speed he has, making Superman even say that he is not used fighting somebody faster than he is:
Originally posted by Philosophía
She detects him even while in his invisible mode. Then she goes physicall against him, until she finds his weak spot. Just using a goddamn stick, and before he can even react, disables his whole armour, but in the end spares him. Insane feat. 🙂
She dodged gunfire! ...or whatever that was.
hrm. that scene again isn't exactly the way i'd heard it. SD says he didn't even want to fight her and all they did was exchange some blows. using abc logic to suggest he was fighting her at 'superman' level speeds......? that makes no sense.
ah well, whatever. i don't really care about this fight, but i'd heard so much about shiva. now that i've seen some stuff for myself i'm happy to some to my own conclusions. thanks.
No time to sift the thread now, but if no one mentioned already, SD also claimed in his first showings that simply using the armor was taxing on his body, which would make sense if he was moving at insanely high speeds.
And since he never took a hit, then there's not really any other reason why his body would be damaged from using it, beyond super speed.
Originally posted by cdtm
No time to sift the thread now, but if no one mentioned already, SD also claimed in his first showings that simply using the armor was taxing on his body, which would make sense if he was moving at insanely high speeds.And since he never took a hit, then there's not really any other reason why his body would be damaged from using it, beyond super speed.
i'm not at all sure what you're trying to say here. he didn't imply his body was damaged at all in that scene with shiva.....he turned off the stealth because it didn't seem to help, but that's all he did. he didn't seem taxed in the least imo.
Originally posted by leonidas
i'm not at all sure what you're trying to say here. he didn't imply his body was damaged at all in that scene with shiva.....he turned off the stealth because it didn't seem to help, but that's all he did. he didn't seem taxed in the least imo.
Not his fight with Shiva, his first fight against Superman way back in the early to mid 90's. He made mention that using the suit puts a strain on his body. Something about how even avoiding getting hit, still does damage.
Good..... F***ing. Lord...
This thread... The blatant ignorance and rampant stupidity on virtually every. single. page of this thread is beyond mind boggling. It's been quite some time since I've been exposed to such a facepalm inducing debacle that I hardly know where to begin.
Hmmm Okay... How about here: WHY IN THEE BLUE BALLS is Bullseye being brought up in this thread and what does he prove to ANYONE exactly?
First off, Bullseye *is* about a B-level villain and was running in the B+ ranks when he beat Elektra. The one legit win he has over Elektra happened decades ago before multiple upgrades concerning her training among other things. When it comes to Elektra specifically, Bullseye has trained for MONTHS to fight her (specifically) using footage, holographic training sequences, and insider info from the hand. He automatically had a mental edge over her seeing as he had killed her in the past. The minute she got over that little mental hump, she utterly, utterly stomped him in about 30 seconds in a one-sided beatdown that could've only been more embarrassing had Elektra been poisoned, fatigued from being on the run, and laced from head to toe with wounds and injuries from both mental and physical tortures internal and external... Oh wait.. That's right, that's what happened the *next* time they fought. 😐
The only other impressive thing that Bullseye has done against Elektra was fighting her and DD at the same time, which was retconned into her being a skrull... Which incidentally was proven to be ridiculously inferior to the original by comparison (as they always are).
So we look at her fights with Bullseye? Okay, what are we supposed to get from that? He has no bearing on anything remotely Elektra related past the early to mid 80's.
(And while we're at it, bringing up a Bullseye loss against f***ing Brock Rumlow in an attempt to downplay Elektra through Lester is beyond ridiculous. Crossbones is insanely skilled [TM praised him as being his best student at one point], nearly as strong as Cap in a fight, and has Punisher like durability/damage soak, so GTFO with that shit.)
Okay, how about Black Widow? B-lister in skills?... Maybe. We know she was apparently on a level skilled enough to compete with a classic version of Wolverine when she was just a child having direct training under him. She's also ridiculously enhanced. She's blitzed a room consisting of Psylocke, Jean Grey, Viper, Spider Woman, Yukio, Rogue, and Tyger Tiger. She has humiliated other high grade B listers in combat making them look silly. Having a little bit of a stalemate-like scenario with Black Widow (in frankly lax combat), is far from an example that would put her comfortabily under Shiva and even then, it's still arguably a low showing for her (Elektra) anyways.
Hercules.. *sigh* Hercules has already been stated and proven to be > Thor in CQC. Even if he was only *as* good as Thor that would be more than enough to consider him a h2h specialist, it's what he does. He's no slouch by *any* means in that regard and to use his ability to parry a couple of Elektra's half-hearted attacks in a *fight* where both parties are attempting to talk each other down as a measure to lowball Elektra? I could give myself brain damage from the level of facepalm that induces. Seriously... Absurd.
People claiming Daredevil as another reason that brings the calibre of Elektra down; clearly just another example in this thread of people having no clue what the hell they are talking about. First off, Matt Murdock is not only the byproduct of the same training undergone by Elektra so he's intimately familiar with a large degree of her playbook, but he's also got a superpower that gives him sensory levels completely beyond anything human and something that keeps him on a reflexive level close to F-ing Spiderman. His agility is on par with Nightwing (and in all likelyhood superior,) and his strength levels allow him to handle a 400 pound barbell like a bo-staff, bound 25 feet into the air, and send Classic Sabretooth through multiple brick walls during combat with punches (a version of Creed who both Silver Sable *and* an enhanced Black Cat said was like hitting a brick wall himself.). Then we have his sheer skill which is on the mid to lower end of the A-list tier.
Now... Not only does Elektra have a mental handicap when it comes to Murdock, but it's to such an excessive level that even seeing someone entirely different *use* his fighting style was enough to give her a mental breakdown.
AND EVEN THEN... She has regularly humiliated DD by short comparison, including confrontations when he's enraged and she's holding back.
Daredevil has straight up incapacitated Spider-man in a purely physical confrontation. He would wreck Batman in a straight up fist fight. That alone is more than enough reason to suggest that Shiva isn't on Elektra's level and that isn't even getting into the real bread and butter of her character or abilities.
..........Aside from the fact that Elektra has put high level characters like Daredevil, Taskmaster, Bullseye, Silver Samurai, Paladin, Zaran, Razorfist, and yes even The Beast on the defensive end of CQC battles........
WOLVERINE. Really, that's all I even REMOTELY need to say in this thread to give the nod to Elektra's credentials. She's beaten Wolverine in a straight fight, she's stalemated him while she was being mind controlled, and she's started to secure an advantage against him while he was being mind controlled himself.
In terms of the MA tier list on Marvel Earth, there's almost no character who has a win column as long or as impressive as his. He's tooled high ranking third and second tiers like Shatterstar, and Blade. He's beaten handily first tiers like DD, and Shang Chi. He's gotten the better of top tiers like Iron Fist and Captain America. And he's utterly humiliated uber tiers like Ogun, and Stick. Wolverine is always impressed with Elektra, even threatened by her. There's a reason for that, and it isn't because she's a B-lister.
I understand that Shiva's *supposed* to have this spellbindingly enigmatic MA reputation, but against someone of Elektra's calibre who considers techniques that leave guys like Shang Chi wiped out "simple" or "easy", Shiva is just reaching out of her league. Elektra would win.
So much lulz in one post. Its not even funny how they are falling at each other to defend elektra. "Gaiz, Widow blitzed X,Y,Z. Why is anybody bringing Bullseye killing elektra? Don't you know she beat him later? Herc is more SKILLED than THOR! Don't you get it? Thor! That makes him near Bronze tiger level! I'mma cite some random DD feat and declare that he would wreck ****ing batman in fist fight, he incapacitated Spider-man! Its not like Batman has knocked out Meta-humans or anything? That's all PIS, I tell ya." Bottom line is Shiva getting beaten in a PIS fight with someone who she killed in one fight and in another fought to a double KO and who is one of the best fighters in street category is a low showing but Elektra getting stalemated by a mortally wounded Black widow is not. Rachel ****ing summers oneshotted Widow by just punching her just recently, but "Gaiz, gaiz". Like I said Karate Kid is around Daredevil level on KMC. ****ing lulz.
Originally posted by abhilegend
So much lulz in one post. Its not even funny how they are falling at each other to defend elektra. "Gaiz, Widow blitzed X,Y,Z. Why is anybody bringing Bullseye killing elektra? Don't you know she beat him later? Herc is more SKILLED than THOR! Don't you get it? Thor! That makes him near Bronze tiger level! I'mma cite some random DD feat and declare that he would wreck ****ing batman in fist fight, he incapacitated Spider-man! Its not like Batman has knocked out Meta-humans or anything? That's all PIS, I tell ya." Bottom line is Shiva getting beaten in a PIS fight with someone who she killed in one fight and in another fought to a double KO and who is one of the best fighters in street category is a low showing but Elektra getting stalemated by a mortally wounded Black widow is not. Rachel ****ing summers oneshotted Widow by just punching her just recently, but "Gaiz, gaiz". Like I said Karate Kid is around Daredevil level on KMC. ****ing lulz.
From what little bit of a piss poor argument you've been conjuring, it seems rather fitting to use abc logic here. Since that's all you're doing. And really, all you *can* do given Elektra's feats outside of her fights are utterly insane and make it look like a one sided flop in her favor over Shiva.
Yes. DD would beat Batman in a straight fist fight. DD is more agile, and has a radar sense. Batman would have to be much MUCH better than DD in hand to hand to have a chance at winning. He isn't.
Knocking out meta-humans is one thing. Being able to incap Spidey in a fist fight is another. And frankly it's something that DD has done, and that Batman would be hard-pressed to follow with hands and feet alone. Pfffft, he could barely contend with KGBeast in fisticuffs. I acknowledge this and I'm a Batman fan. The Marvel MA street level is just superior to most of what DC has to offer.
Now, I'm not sure what you think your ranting is going to accomplish here other than exposing your ignorance or sheer stupidity, but acting like Thor or Herc are such bafoons in CQC that it's unreasonable for them to parry or block a couple of half-hearted attacks in what's virtually a non-fight is making me think that what you just posted isn't you throwing a tantrum, but the actual level of your cognitive skills in action.
And yes, Widow stalemating Elektra is a LOW SHOWING. Pretty much every appearance Elektra has where she isn't being displayed as a super strong, super powerful, super durable, telepathic, psionic, super skilled, quasi mystic, AND, at the same time, *is* a low showing for her.
We're talking about the woman who single handedly fought off The Beast in it's true form.
Not sure what your butt-hurt little tangent about Karate Kid has to do with anything, but this thread is about Shiva, so let's just stick to the discussion about how Elektra beats dat-ass. 😎
Originally posted by jinzin
From what little bit of a piss poor argument you've been conjuring, it seems rather fitting to use abc logic here. Since that's all you're doing. And really, all you *can* do given Elektra's feats outside of her fights are utterly insane and make it look like a one sided flop in her favor over Shiva.Yes. DD would beat Batman in a straight fist fight. DD is more agile, and has a radar sense. Batman would have to be much MUCH better than DD in hand to hand to have a chance at winning. He isn't.
Knocking out meta-humans is one thing. Being able to incap Spidey in a fist fight is another. And frankly it's something that DD has done, and that Batman would be hard-pressed to follow with hands and feet alone. Pfffft, he could barely contend with KGBeast in fisticuffs. I acknowledge this and I'm a Batman fan. The Marvel MA street level is just superior to most of what DC has to offer.
Now, I'm not sure what you think your ranting is going to accomplish here other than exposing your ignorance or sheer stupidity, but acting like Thor or Herc are such bafoons in CQC that it's unreasonable for them to parry or block a couple of half-hearted attacks in what's virtually a non-fight is making me think that what you just posted isn't you throwing a tantrum, but the actual level of your cognitive skills in action.
And yes, Widow stalemating Elektra is a LOW SHOWING. Pretty much every appearance Elektra has where she isn't being displayed as a super strong, super powerful, super durable, telepathic, psionic, super skilled, quasi mystic, AND, at the same time, *is* a low showing for her.
We're talking about the woman who single handedly fought off The Beast in it's true form.
Not sure what your butt-hurt little tangent about Karate Kid has to do with anything, but this thread is about Shiva, so let's just stick to the discussion about how Elektra beats dat-ass. 😎
😂 👆
and i STILL haven't heard how shiva gets around elektra's tp advantage.....
Originally posted by jinzin
From what little bit of a piss poor argument you've been conjuring, it seems rather fitting to use abc logic here. Since that's all you're doing. And really, all you *can* do given Elektra's feats outside of her fights are utterly insane and make it look like a one sided flop in her favor over Shiva.Yes. DD would beat Batman in a straight fist fight. DD is more agile, and has a radar sense. Batman would have to be much MUCH better than DD in hand to hand to have a chance at winning. He isn't.
Knocking out meta-humans is one thing. Being able to incap Spidey in a fist fight is another. And frankly it's something that DD has done, and that Batman would be hard-pressed to follow with hands and feet alone. Pfffft, he could barely contend with KGBeast in fisticuffs. I acknowledge this and I'm a Batman fan. The Marvel MA street level is just superior to most of what DC has to offer.
Now, I'm not sure what you think your ranting is going to accomplish here other than exposing your ignorance or sheer stupidity, but acting like Thor or Herc are such bafoons in CQC that it's unreasonable for them to parry or block a couple of half-hearted attacks in what's virtually a non-fight is making me think that what you just posted isn't you throwing a tantrum, but the actual level of your cognitive skills in action.
And yes, Widow stalemating Elektra is a LOW SHOWING. Pretty much every appearance Elektra has where she isn't being displayed as a super strong, super powerful, super durable, telepathic, psionic, super skilled, quasi mystic, AND, at the same time, *is* a low showing for her.
We're talking about the woman who single handedly fought off The Beast in it's true form.
Not sure what your butt-hurt little tangent about Karate Kid has to do with anything, but this thread is about Shiva, so let's just stick to the discussion about how Elektra beats dat-ass. 😎
Yeah, come back here when Elektra beats people faster than superman and physically wreck supergirl level beings and not get assraped by bullseye, Kuruyama and Gorgon who IF stalemated and Matt oneshotted. We can play high end games all day long.
Pfft, talk to me when he can beat punisher in a fist fight who batman beat in a casual manner in a canon comic. Also batman has physically incapacitated metahumans too who are stronger than spidey. Heck, he's beaten stronger people than spidey under mindcontrol like hawkman. DD being more agile? Yeah, BS on that. Nightwing couldn't even touch bruce when he wanted. Also lulz @KGBeast, talk to me when matt beats punisher convincingly.
Yeah, that's just rubbish. Take ANY marvel MA against Val Armorr and see what happens. I'm not even a street levelers fan but I can see double standards when I can see it.
Just making an observation, seeing you're too deep in your own ego to see someone else's point.
Aren't you the same guy who argued that Gorgon takes the majority over Wonder Woman because he's faster for 25 pages? Thank you very much for your assessment of my cognitive skills. Wolverine fans are notorious for it.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Like I said Karate Kid is around Daredevil level on KMC. ****ing lulz.
abhi I hope you don't view all marvel fans like this. I don't view Daredevil as KK level that's for sure. I view DD and Bat in hth can go just about either way....with me rooting for DD that is and giving my premise as to why he would win.
Originally posted by abhilegendAre you being purposely dense here? What ONE of those things is an excuse? All of those are facts. Maybe you have the two terms confused?
You are the one who's making excuses like nobody's business. Herc>Thor anybody? Widow blitzing? She beat bullseye?
Otherwise, I can argue like you and all I have to say is that Batman tooled Shiva while fighting/having to worry about other opponents at the same time. CONTEXT IS FOR THE WEAK!
Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, come back here when Elektra beats people faster than superman and physically wreck supergirl level beings and not get assraped by bullseye, Kuruyama and Gorgon who IF stalemated and Matt oneshotted. We can play high end games all day long.
I'm sorry, and maybe this is news to you, but Superman and the superfam get shat on all the time when dealing with street level threats as not to end the comic in one panel. In that same era, Deathstroke made comments about being *too fast and agile* for Superman while Supes followed close behind him. But guess what... He isn't.
Shadowdragon was faster than Superman while he was assessing his opponent and holding back his speed. At no point do we have Superman saying "Zounds! He dodged my fastest punch!" We have him stating that he doubled his speed to tag Shadowdragon, doubled it from what? We don't know. But knowing Supes, probably from a speed that was still deliberately being held back to such a degree as not to turn a likely human opponent into paste on the end of his fist, or send him out the damn stratosphere.
Then we have Shadowdragon who is an outliner as he can increase and decrease the effects of his suit in combat. If Shiva engaged him and he was saying something like "Whao! She's faster than Superman was!" THEN you might have a leg to stand on. But he wasn't. He didn't even *want* to fight. Which tells us that he was holding back on her, and he was. He doesn't prove anything for Shiva here. She got stomped by a character who was holding back on her, which is supposed to look more impressive than it is because he fought a superman who was holding back on him. Coooool I guess.
Being able to respond to a super-rush? Uhhh Batman does that all the time. Is HE TOO faster than Superman? This is absurd. Okay, Wolverine is shocked by Elektra's sheer speed, and he's been able to tag Gladiator going at super speeds! Yay, for stupid abc arguments I guess. *shrug*
Now back to Bullseye? Yeah, that's already an example that's been invalidated utterly and completely. Konton's right, you *are* like talking to a wall. Bullseye doesn't bring anything to this discussion except to show that even someone who is as skilled and dangerous as he is, and prepped specifically for Elektra, and up against the worst possible version of Elektra with multiple handicaps.... STILL doesn't have a prayer of beating her in a fight.
Kuruyama... Never fought anyone else. Doesn't bring anything to this discussion.
Gorgon... Was not stalemated by Iron Fist. Their fight was interrupted as Gorgon was arguably prepping to land a kill shot. 😕
Daredevil KOing Gorgon, is PIS at it's best. Unless you would like to explain to me how a man that took rockets blowing up in his face, getting the roof dropped on him, getting hit by an Adamantium battering ram going hundreds of miles an hour, and crashing from skyscraper heights onto a concrete floor (and was able to spring back from that and just utterly punish Wolverine in CQC) getting knocked out by a jump-kick somehow *isn't* writing that's utterly ridden with stupidity. 😐
Gorgon as he was written in Enemy of the State would utterly tool Shiva. And even outside of Millar's version, unlike her, he actually has bullet feats, fight feats at super speeds against speedsters using said speed, and other feats showing his ability to have complex telepathic dialogues in the time it takes the (enhanced) human brain to register him in the room.
Yes... Gorgon versus Shiva... Make that thread and try not to get laughed out of it. 😂
Originally posted by abhilegend
Pfft, talk to me when he can beat punisher in a fist fight who batman beat in a casual manner in a canon comic.
Okay... let's use your ABC nonsense. Punisher was able to put Daken through a tooth-and nail-slugfest with a broken femur. Daken would casually dismiss Batman more easily than he did Deadpool. And, crossovers are not canon. I shouldn't even have to begin to explain that.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Also batman has physically incapacitated metahumans too who are stronger than spidey. Heck, he's beaten stronger people than spidey under mindcontrol like hawkman. DD being more agile? Yeah, BS on that. Nightwing couldn't even touch bruce when he wanted. Also lulz @KGBeast, talk to me when matt beats punisher convincingly.
And yes, DD is more agile. It's a byproduct of the sense of balance he had to develop as a BLIND PERSON, in combination with what is essentially a F-ing SUPERPOWER in his radar sense. Batman necessarily simply *can't* be more agile than Daredevil. This isn't that hard to figure out.
Matt has already beaten the Punisher. Several times. Not sure what you're going on about. OR what you think that repeating the names of these characters does for your argument. Elektra is > Daredevil. And >>>> Punisher. And both statements have been shown in comics.
Originally posted by abhilegendVal would be hard pressed to contend with Ogun who can possess him, hypnotize him, fight him on a mental plane, is immortal through sheer training, can possess technology, achieve a lifetime of training in 2 weeks etc etc..
Yeah, that's just rubbish. Take ANY marvel MA against Val Armorr and see what happens. I'm not even a street levelers fan but I can see double standards when I can see it.Just making an observation, seeing you're too deep in your own ego to see someone else's point.
Aren't you the same guy who argued that Gorgon takes the majority over Wonder Woman because he's faster for 25 pages? Thank you very much for your assessment of my cognitive skills. Wolverine fans are notorious for it.
But even then Val is again an outliner. The STANDARD for street level MAs in DC is simply not on the level of Marvel MA's. Which is fine. It's comics. Who cares?
Heh, yeah, I erroneously argued in favor of Gorgon, but I think my argument had more to do with the fact that he's a ninja/telepath/speedster who would be putting her on the defensive using his stare to force her to fight blind. Even then, I'll admit I severely undercredited Wonder Woman's speed in that thread and spent a hefty amount of time catching up on her. I would still argue she doesn't typically use her speed in combat and lowers her defense and offense while fighting low level opponents... Y'know.. kind of like Superman did with Shadowdragon.
Me being a Wolverine fan doesn't make Shiva lose in THIS fight any less.
She can't contend with someone like Elektra. Tell me how she's supposed to deal with something like the silent scream.... Yeah... She isn't.
