Lady Shiva vs Elektra

Started by cdtm16 pages

Spidey does job a lot, but why does everyone assume he wasn't going all out against SS?

Yet, against someone like Black Tatantula, they assume he was giving his best, and simply couldn't cut it?

Steel Serpent proved strong enough to catch Spidey in mid jump kick using only one hand, swung him around, and threw him into a tree, not unlike Black Tatantula grabbing him by the foot and repeatedly smashing him against a wall. And Spidey couldn't seem to floor SS after he claimed he was taking the gloves off, and resorted to leaping in and out of his range with quick attacks.. Looked to me like SS was tanking Spidey's attacks, against the same way Black Tarantula did in their two fights.

So why the different assumptions?

Edit: Oh, and I forgot to ask:

What puts Shang Chi on the top tier? Even granting your points that Steel Serpents biggest victories are in the far past, what's Shang done lately? Beaten around Logan in a training session, is the only one I'm aware of.

Originally posted by jinzin
Good list of power DC MA's but it doesn't revert my original point which is that the focus, and level of standard Marvel MA's is typically higher than DC.

Azrael (I'm assuming we are talking non armored) would be picked apart by guys like Shang Chi, and The Cat. Even *with* armor, people like Misty Knight, (given her arm has technopathy) and Silver Samurai are likely to steal the majority from JPV. None of them are top tier level characters of the Marvel MA world.

Black Canary has a decent powerset to go with her skill but would get wtf stomped by Psylocke, Kitty Pride, or Typhoid Mary. The first two with powers on *or* off and again the none of them are top tier MA's (Psylocke should be but writers often forget how skilled or powerful she *should* be).

Drakon's insanely fast but I would wager that Mr. X edges him out despite it, simply because of his telepathy. Both characters are roughly equivalent though and you're right to put Drakon in a top tier list.

Midnighter, like Drakon is a great combination of skill and super-abilities. Still though, I don't think he could hang with the likes of Gorgon. Brass, Rapture, and Blood Shadow would all be contenders as well simply based off telepathic power sets and skill sets alone.

Grifter wouldn't hold up against Shatterstar and would likely be outmatched by someone like Night Thrasher (And that's ignoring Night Thrasher's best). Both of those Marvel characters are barely mid level 3rd tiers.

Rose (I'm assuming you're talking about pre-boot) was pretty tough on paper but couldn't hold her salt against anyone with a name any time she was in a clinch. Fantomex, Agent Zero, or Taskmaster would all likely take the majority from her. X-23 for certain.

Sensei, I would consider in the "grandmaster" level of MA's not the standard, even so, he probably isn't on the level to deal with guys like Ogun, and Mandarin. Temugin and him are *perhaps* around equal levels. He also gets put into arguable battles with Master Po, and Stick. And probably still gets beat by 2nd tier badguys guys like Junzo or Steel Serpent at their best. *shrug*

Before this back and forth gets too crazy, I will say that DC has a whole host of cosmic-like MA's that really make this discussion complex but when it comes to their earthbound MA's, Shang Chi alone can likely beat or stalemate pretty much *every* earthbound standard MA DC has to offer and he's really not near the top of the Marvel totem pole. That should really be a telling statement here. I'm not sure that any of them can stand up to Wolverine, Elektra, Captain America, or Rand at their best. Would you really argue any differently?

Those were just from the top of my head. I forgot to add one of the most haxxed MA characters aside from Karate Kid. Judomaster (Sonia) doesn't really have an aversion field, but her own will power that helps her from not getting hit.

Earth 2 Sonia seems pretty formidable from the first appearance we have seen. According to Robinson, she's top tier and was able to drop kick a legit speedster, Jay Garrick.

I wasn't talking JPV, Azrael, but Michael Lane. With the Suit of Sorrows, he is able to draw upon all the users skills who has ever put on the suit, including Batman. His swords are plot devices. The Sword of Sin is able to one shot Silver Samurai, if need be and his suit is durable as hell. He was able to tank an RPG with no scratch whatsoever and tank Fireball's heat attack, which he draws from the sun.

As for Black Canary, she has one of the most formidable attacks with her sonic scream. We have seen her one shot Mammoth a legit 70-85 class and she is able to fly with her powers no just like Banshee.

As for Psylocke, Grifter would wreck her. He was able to make Helspont scream in pain with his TP powers. The same Helspont who OWNED Superman. He was also able to fight Midnighter as well.

Midnighter recently was able to surprise Martian Manhunter, because he found his weak spot and if not for MM's shapeshifting abilities, he could have very well killed him. He was also able to take down a Red Lantern with Apollo and easily dodge gun fire. Supposedly, he can kill ANYTHING, hence the Martian Manhunter example. And it seems Deathstroke came from the same batch of super soldiers.

And I'm talking about DCnU Rose Wilson, who seems to have some telepathy powes along with good healing abilities. She was able to hang with Timber Wolf (Legion of Super-Heroes) and survive Terra from going all out. She has been improved by Harvest the Leader from NOWHERE. A secret organization.

And I wasn't talking about League of Assassin's Sensie, but Sensei from Human Race who is 300 year old grandmaster and a being of living Chi. Aside from Grail from Wetworks, Sensei is the most powerful chi user in comics. I wish we could have seen more from him.

Originally posted by cdtm
Spidey does job a lot, but why does everyone assume he wasn't going all out against SS?

Yet, against someone like Black Tatantula, they assume he was giving his best, and simply couldn't cut it?

Steel Serpent proved strong enough to catch Spidey in mid jump kick using only one hand, swung him around, and threw him into a tree, not unlike Black Tatantula grabbing him by the foot and repeatedly smashing him against a wall. And Spidey couldn't seem to floor SS after he claimed he was taking the gloves off, and resorted to leaping in and out of his range with quick attacks.. Looked to me like SS was tanking Spidey's attacks, against the same way Black Tarantula did in their two fights.

So why the different assumptions?

Edit: Oh, and I forgot to ask:

What puts Shang Chi on the top tier? Even granting your points that Steel Serpents biggest victories are in the far past, what's Shang done lately? Beaten around Logan in a training session, is the only one I'm aware of.

Oh I just don't think Spidey psychologically *can* go all out on opponents the majority of the time. Unless he's under a large amount of duress. He typically holds back. I mean, isn't that Parker's MO? (sorry I'm really tired and starting to get lost)

As far as Shang Chi goes. I guess he'd be in the second tier or low end of the first. He's not top tier though. Even his scuffle with Logan (which is a retrospective feat) doesn't really prove, he's above that. Current versions of Logan and Cap roll him over.

Fine, just ignore me.

I hate you.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Those were just from the top of my head. I forgot to add one of the most haxxed MA characters aside from Karate Kid. Judomaster (Sonia) doesn't really have an aversion field, but her own will power that helps her from not getting hit.

Earth 2 Sonia seems pretty formidable from the first appearance we have seen. According to Robinson, she's top tier and was able to drop kick a legit speedster, Jay Garrick.

I wasn't talking JPV, Azrael, but Michael Lane. With the Suit of Sorrows, he is able to draw upon all the users skills who has ever put on the suit, including Batman. His swords are plot devices. The Sword of Sin is able to one shot Silver Samurai, if need be and his suit is durable as hell. He was able to tank an RPG with no scratch whatsoever and tank Fireball's heat attack, which he draws from the sun.

As for Black Canary, she has one of the most formidable attacks with her sonic scream. We have seen her one shot Mammoth a legit 70-85 class and she is able to fly with her powers no just like Banshee.

As for Psylocke, Grifter would wreck her. He was able to make Helspont scream in pain with his TP powers. The same Helspont who OWNED Superman. He was also able to fight Midnighter as well.

Midnighter recently was able to surprise Martian Manhunter, because he found his weak spot and if not for MM's shapeshifting abilities, he could have very well killed him. He was also able to take down a Red Lantern with Apollo and easily dodge gun fire. Supposedly, he can kill ANYTHING, hence the Martian Manhunter example. And it seems Deathstroke came from the same batch of super soldiers.

And I'm talking about DCnU Rose Wilson, who seems to have some telepathy powes along with good healing abilities. She was able to hang with Timber Wolf (Legion of Super-Heroes) and survive Terra from going all out. She has been improved by Harvest the Leader from NOWHERE. A secret organization.

And I wasn't talking about League of Assassin's Sensie, but Sensei from Human Race who is 300 year old grandmaster and a being of living Chi. Aside from Grail from Wetworks, Sensei is the most powerful chi user in comics. I wish we could have seen more from him.

I'll admit, the majority of the characters you were making reference to aren't the versions I'm familiar with lol. I haven't kept up with ANY of the DCUC stuff. 😬 So I can't comment about that either.

As for Psylocke, I'd say it depends on which mental version of Psylocke shows up to the fight. As I said, she is downwritten quite often as not to end fights in one panel.

Originally posted by Mindset
Fine, just ignore me.

I hate you.

I WAS GETTING TO YOU NEXT!

I don't know what that gif was supposed to mean though... are you disappointed that I'm *not* dead?😕 lol

I don't know anymore. 😮

😂

Originally posted by cdtm
Spidey does job a lot, but why does everyone assume he wasn't going all out against SS?

Yet, against someone like Black Tatantula, they assume he was giving his best, and simply couldn't cut it?

Steel Serpent proved strong enough to catch Spidey in mid jump kick using only one hand, swung him around, and threw him into a tree, not unlike Black Tatantula grabbing him by the foot and repeatedly smashing him against a wall. And Spidey couldn't seem to floor SS after he claimed he was taking the gloves off, and resorted to leaping in and out of his range with quick attacks.. Looked to me like SS was tanking Spidey's attacks, against the same way Black Tarantula did in their two fights.

So why the different assumptions?

Edit: Oh, and I forgot to ask:

What puts Shang Chi on the top tier? Even granting your points that Steel Serpents biggest victories are in the far past, what's Shang done lately? Beaten around Logan in a training session, is the only one I'm aware of.

Like Jin said, it's his MO. Ock's been fighting SM for years, took him a mind swoop to realize Parker's been holding back all this time.

Originally posted by jinzin
I'll admit, the majority of the characters you were making reference to aren't the versions I'm familiar with lol. I haven't kept up with ANY of the DCUC stuff. 😬 So I can't comment about that either.

As for Psylocke, I'd say it depends on which mental version of Psylocke shows up to the fight. As I said, she is downwritten quite often as not to end fights in one panel.

Check out Stormwatch, Ravagers, and Grifter somehow. Not the best of books, but some of those feats are in there. Some of the characters I mentioned kind of got boosts and upgrades. Both the Azrael issues and Sensei happened pre DCnU, though. Human Race is interesting, but not great.

Also, what about 7 Deadly Brothers? Each MA has a lifetime experience of MA's.

Ducra, a near immortal, super assassin that trained Jason Todd.

Agent Centipede a cool assassin who can can basically rewind time and correct his mistakes.

Super assassin Essence who can render herself invisible and intangible. Among other abilities. Really old.

And Jin Si, a being who REPRESENTS the very essence of Martial Arts. Easily owned Batman.

Connor Hawke, who can also read movements as well. Definitely top tier.

Sensei in his prime is also uber as hell.
Redirecting a rocket with a gesture.

Owning Batman and another guy just by sticking his hands out.

Has yang ever done anything worth note? Being a *master* of a martial art is pretty standard fair for anyone cracking into the top 2 tiers. Shang Chi has fought multiple attackers who were masters of "every" martial arts style in the world according to 3rd person narrative. He himself is a master of every martial art.

For instance, Wolverine fought 7 undead samurai who were the best swordsmen of their generation, and he didn't get tagged once.

What has Ducra ever done other than train Jason and die? She's no Lazaer.

Centipede? We're really scraping the bottom of the barrel huh? You sure you're not just picking out characters who have powers that just happen to know martial arts and not necessarily martial artists who happen to have powers? Because there's a heavy discrepancy in skill there. In any case several no-name Hand masters could deal with him through mental attacks.

Essence, grandmaster level, still not impressive as Ogun.

Jin Si would be FAR more impressive if it wasn't for the fact that: She's a metahuman. Batman was busy coming up with a complex strategy for his entire JL team (which the comic went into detail about). And despite both of those first two points she still wasn't able to incapacitate him. Maybe she *should* be better but frankly given what was shown she wouldn't be about to outfight someone like Daken or Deadpool for a win.

Sensei I already replied to. But... Dude, his fight with Batman didn't prove much about him other then he can't hang with any top tier MA who has decent stamina and sure as HELL can't do that with the laundry list of Marvel MA's a healing factor. Going by that example, he'd end up in a losing battle against Moonknight. *shrug*

Originally posted by jinzin
Has yang ever done anything worth note? Being a *master* of a martial art is pretty standard fair for anyone cracking into the top 2 tiers. Shang Chi has fought multiple attackers who were masters of "every" martial arts style in the world according to 3rd person narrative. He himself is a master of every martial art.

For instance, Wolverine fought 7 undead samurai who were the best swordsmen of their generation, and he didn't get tagged once.

What has Ducra ever done other than train Jason and die? She's no Lazaer.

Centipede? We're really scraping the bottom of the barrel huh? You sure you're not just picking out characters who have powers that just happen to know martial arts and not necessarily martial artists who happen to have powers? Because there's a heavy discrepancy in skill there. In any case several no-name Hand masters could deal with him through mental attacks.

Essence, grandmaster level, still not impressive as Ogun.

Jin Si would be FAR more impressive if it wasn't for the fact that: She's a metahuman. Batman was busy coming up with a complex strategy for his entire JL team (which the comic went into detail about). And despite both of those first two points she still wasn't able to incapacitate him. Maybe she *should* be better but frankly given what was shown she wouldn't be about to outfight someone like Daken or Deadpool for a win.

Sensei I already replied to. But... Dude, his fight with Batman didn't prove much about him other then he can't hang with any top tier MA who has decent stamina and sure as HELL can't do that with the laundry list of Marvel MA's a healing factor. Going by that example, he'd end up in a losing battle against Moonknight. *shrug*

Essence survived an encounter and an attack from friggen Eclipso. A being near and sometimes on the level of Spectre. Supposedly, her powers might stem from Trigon himself. Ogun has nothing on that.

In Sensei's prime, he would stomp all over Moon Knight. Azrael would be a better fight, IMO.

You're trying to make an argument for an immortal character "surviving" an attack as being impressive? 😕

And did you forget what we're talking about? In what way is Essence anywhere near the same skill level as Ogun? All you're doing is buying into a bunch of conjecture and expecting me to buy into it too but that conjecture really has nothing to do with what we're discussing. Again, I can name tons of Marvel characters more *powerful* than Ogun who are not nearly as skilled.

As far as Sensei goes, this isn't fantasy football. What ifs don't matter here. As he is, he'd get beat by MK. You are bringing up a ton of characters with powers to argue against my original point but if you couldn't tell it isn't really working.

Lady Shiva is of the highest order of *standard* DC MA's. The premise of her character is that she's more skilled than Batman. Batman's able to contend with her based on his skill *and* physicality, and even then, their fights are inconclusive at best. Batman would be hard pressed to assert *any* sort of advantage over someone like Daredevil who isn't in the top tier of standard Marvel street level MA's by a long shot and would in all likelyhood lose in a straight fist fight because Daredevil has superhuman abilities. Daredevil has been humiliated by Elektra in short h2h exchanges despite his physical advantages over Elektra *specifically due to her skill level*.

Standard (again, standard) street level MA's in marvel are just a higher calibre than DC's. But that's just because Marvel tends to have a lot more focus on street level fair while DC tends to focus on skyfathers or any other super-characters not named Batman. It's just how it's always been. *shrug*

Originally posted by jinzin
You're trying to make an argument for an immortal character "surviving" an attack as being impressive? 😕

And did you forget what we're talking about? In what way is Essence anywhere near the same skill level as Ogun? All you're doing is buying into a bunch of conjecture and expecting me to buy into it too but that conjecture really has nothing to do with what we're discussing. Again, I can name tons of Marvel characters more *powerful* than Ogun who are not nearly as skilled.

As far as Sensei goes, this isn't fantasy football. What ifs don't matter here. As he is, he'd get beat by MK. You are bringing up a ton of characters with powers to argue against my original point but if you couldn't tell it isn't really working.

Lady Shiva is of the highest order of *standard* DC MA's. The premise of her character is that she's more skilled than Batman. Batman's able to contend with her based on his skill *and* physicality, and even then, their fights are inconclusive at best. Batman would be hard pressed to assert *any* sort of advantage over someone like Daredevil who isn't in the top tier of standard Marvel street level MA's by a long shot and would in all likelyhood lose in a straight fist fight because Daredevil has superhuman abilities. Daredevil has been humiliated by Elektra in short h2h exchanges despite his physical advantages over Elektra *specifically due to her skill level*.

Standard (again, standard) street level MA's in marvel are just a higher calibre than DC's. But that's just because Marvel tends to have a lot more focus on street level fair while DC tends to focus on skyfathers or any other super-characters not named Batman. It's just how it's always been. *shrug*

I'm not saying Essence is more skilled than a Lady Shiva, just that she can defeat MA's with powers. You're giving me meta soldiers as well, so I'm just listing some on DC's side.

Agree to disagree, since I don't think I'll change your mind and your not changing mine. I don't think DC is necessarily more skilled just that they are on the same level.

And last time I checked, DC has had more street level books than Marvel's. I counted. 😛

BTW, I'd place Richard Dragon and Bronze Tiger ahead of Shiva. And it seems White Canary is on the same level as well.

Connor Hawke would be on the same level as would Constantine. So, my top 10 list would be something like this:

1. Pre-Crisis Val.
2. Zero Hour Val (Different character)
3. Pre-Reboot Val/Jin Si
4. Prometheus (A knock off with the same abilities owned Shiva)
5. Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Bronze Tiger, White Canary around the same level
6. Batman
7. Midnighter, Deathstroke, Constantine Drakon

Do they have more street books when you take the 20 some odd batman and batman related titles off the shelves? BOOM!

And you *are* a tricksy one. I've noticed your top ten list only has seven spots... And some spots have multiple characters. 😛

Good list though, and fairly accurate IMO. I'd agree to placing Dragon and Tiger above Shiva for certain.

Originally posted by jinzin
Do they have more street books when you take the 20 some odd batman and batman related titles off the shelves? BOOM!

And you *are* a tricksy one. I've noticed your top ten list only has seven spots... And some spots have multiple characters. 😛

Good list though, and fairly accurate IMO. I'd agree to placing Dragon and Tiger above Shiva for certain.

Green Arrow, Suicide Squad, Birds of Prey, Katana, Team 7 are not in the Batman family. Plus you have the Batman family alone equals all of Marvel's streets and half of Marvel's streets aren't even traditional streets. Last time I checked Captain America and Wolverine aren't street levelers. But I counted them anyway.

BTW, I forgot Cassandra Cain, Judomaster's son (Owned Bane), and Connor Hawke on my list.

Idk, I'd consider Logan and Cap interchangeable streets/metas. Kind of like Slade.