Lady Shiva vs Elektra

Originally posted by cdtm

Hmm..

Originally posted by cdtm

Hmm..

They both have good bullet feats.

Same old cdtm.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
So even Daredevil commenting he's too dangerous, giving Cap problems, to killing someone that stalemates Daredevil. This is a C to you back then. Now a days your right and he has gone down. But back then. I disagree with you.

While she loses to top names Elektra has stalemated them or won back in the rematch.

Shiva.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes. He's dangerous due to projectiles. He's always been a C lister MA. Evn back then Punisher who is himself a C lister MA destroyed him in h2h. DD commented that on his aiming skills and he practically ambushed Cap damaging both his vision and leg. Not impressive.

Impressive to me. Steve is not joe, your talking about a Super Soldier here ab. Plus what did you want Bullseye to do? Walk right up to him in the dark.....and then say out loud we will start fighting at exactly 1 minute?

That was a impressive all considering.

Being a threat and being a capable MA isn't the same. GA is more dangerous than Nightwing due to his arrows. Doesn't mean he's a better MA.

This I agree but for me it's a moot point. Bullseye skills are with weapons.... any weapon or anything he can grab to use. Like a flash light to even a tooth pick. To even use a gun at times. His skills with weapons is why I have him at A-list back then. A-list doesn't just mean HtH. He's definitely not a C-list.

Also in DD 141 Bullseye stalemated Daredevil as well. He later outsmarted DD and takes him out via sneakery air planet but before that that fight was pretty even.

He has some losses for sure like Shiva but he makes up for it as well.

Like stalemating DD and Elektra at the same time. Of his stalemating Deadpool or IIRC having the advantage on Deadpool.

Also here Bullseye defeats DD in V2. Borrowed these links from vine. Unfortunately I don't have the full book with me but I don't remember DD being injured.(anyone know the issue number for these?)
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/11/113563/2450853-Daredevilv2005-14.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/11/113563/2450854-Daredevilv2005-15.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/11/113563/2450855-Daredevilv2005-16.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/11/113563/2450856-Daredevilv2005-17.jpg

And? Its ****ing hercules. If that happened to a DC MA you would've been touting it as the most relevant fight ever. Most characters don't go for killing at start.

It isn't Elektra's best highlight thats for sure but it's a stalemate.

She was mortally wounded and still stalemated Elektra. A B list MA while missing a vital organ stalemated her. Ponder on that.

It was mostly a skill fight. She was heavily wounded too.

She was wounded. I admit but it was a fight and in that fight it's a enhanced character with nano tech in her system. Again not her best showing but a stalemate.

Its not like this happened. A stalemate but Shiva took a thrashing and got knocked down.

http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/3654/1511682shivavshuntresss.jpg

Not in pure skills, they are not. All other versions were revealed as another prometheus not the original one in Cry for Justice or some such.

Prom is hit and miss on effectiveness. I mean even the version that took out Shiva was then put down by Huntress and the the other bird of prey finished him off.

Even the original Prom that was considered the most competent, Batman was gaining an edge on him at one time. IIRC he had to use gas or a gas gun to get away from Batman. To other versions have had trouble with Green Arrow or Roy Harper at times.

Yeah, she was. Nothing to be ashamed about.

Well everyone losses that's for sure. But it's the way she lost IMO.

Under Grodd's mind control, it is always the case. Dismissed.

How so? I'll drop if it there's a reference it that particular story? As mind control is not always the case.

Like cap being troubled by a C lister after his vision was disabled, its not that a bad showing.

IIRC it was a stalemate with someone as dangerous as Bullseye and considering his exotic weapons skills. Definitely not a C-list.

Shang is no dragon, not even close. Like I said, you would be saying Captain america or wolverine are KK level next. Cass dropped unconscious after the first loss and in other Shiva flat out killed her. Its not much to see the second loss was flat out bad writing.

From memory Dragon had the advantage on Shiva, Bronze Tiger(but he noted Bronze age is catching up to him) and stalemated Connor and Batman. Is that really superior to Shang's? Plus he lacks a lot of Shang's exoctic feats in martial arts. Not close......not to far if you ask me.

Nope, being killed by a C lister is not irrelevant because you later beat him. A mortally wounded B lister stalemated her. Its embarrassing. Its still embarrassing. C'mon. You really think that's how comics work?

It's your right to believe so. But being killed by Bullseye, considering Elektra herself has always stalemated Daredevil. It speaks more for Bullseye.

Embarrassing stalemated BW(while wounded) isn't that bad considering she is enhanced not your normal person anyhow.

Shiva has only lost to A listers not being killed by a C lister. You can try to excuse that showing as much you want, it would still be more humiliating than all of shiva's losses combined. A C lister MA directly outfought her and killed her with her own sai, what is more humiliating than that?

Exactly my point she has lost to A listers while Elektra has stalemated or defeated A listers.

Accept Bullseye is no C-lister and his weapons skills are practically A or even S category. No C-lister is going to hold off Daredevil and Scroll Elektra at the same time nor stalemate DD nor defeat Daredevil himself.

That's nothing to with being biased. I called you biased because you are touting low showings for one character which aren't actually low showings and then are trying to excuse actual low showings for another character.

See, this is why you're biased. Later showings don't erase the earlier showings.

Past showing don't always show current level of skills. Characters, change and improve and evolve. Lets pretend your right and Bullseye is a C-lister. Elektra has fought him and defeated him to the point that the next time she beat him while in so much of a handicap. She showed she it that much better then him.

Of course the past fights count but that fight does not diminish her currently on who is the better fighter.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Impressive to me. Steve is not joe, your talking about a Super Soldier here ab. Plus what did you want Bullseye to do? Walk right up to him in the dark.....and then say out loud we will start fighting at exactly 1 minute?

That was a impressive all considering.

Of course the past fights count but that fight does not diminish her currently on who is the better fighter.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
To my knowledge Bullseye only beat Elektra conclusively "once" and in the beginning.

Elektra defeated Bullseye the other times.

The one that you claim she beat was not even the real Elektra.

So history shows that Elektra>>>>Bullseye. Bullseye good but lets not be telling lies now.

3 Elektra vs Bullseye fights I can think of.

1. Classic DD + Elektra fight where he had plot armor and she died.

2. Bullseye also specifically trained FOR Elektra in their second big fight in Elektra v2. Fighting holograms of her in action for an extended period of time with lots of prep and then she still beat him by fighting in an unorthodox style he didn't expect while protecting civilians.

3. Dark Reign, where he had huge advantages and she kicked his ass.

Why is this guy so obsessed with her ONE loss to Bullseye that happened decades ago?

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Which there fight is a stalemate and exactly what I stated. Shang is a prominent fighter so, I doubt you can take much out of that. Especially since they were using lethal weapons to try and impale one another. Indeed Elektra stalemated him like I stated.

http://s593.beta.photobucket.com/user/elektrarespectthread/media/Elektra_Fights_Elektra_v1_16_06.jpg.html
http://s593.beta.photobucket.com/user/elektrarespectthread/media/Elektra_Fights_Elektra_v1_16_07.jpg.html

They weren't both using lethal weapons either [only Elektra was, unless you want to suggest that Shang Chi's sticks were impaling weapons?]

Don't be absurd. Your argument is thin as it is, you don't want me to start making fun of it.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
That goes vice a versa. As Elektra has a soft spot for DD as well as she did have DD at sai point in once encounter that you forget. They give DD fights Puni or Bullsey but DD normaly defeats them in the end. So my statement still stands with Elektra and DD both stalemating one another. Unlike with DD vs Puni or Bullseye.

Yes, Daredevil normally defeats them in the end. But that says nothing about Elektra, who gets into stalemates with B-list Black Widow, or exchanges wins with Bullseye. Punisher? Yes, she proved to be faster than him. So did Black Widow. The same Black Widow who stalemated Elektra recently. The same Black Widow who lost to Bullseye. The same Bullseye who lost to Punisher. The same Punisher who beat Bullseye.

Rock. Paper. Scissors.

With Daredevil being the Ultimate Nullifier. Because he is A-list, and they're B-list.

(if you don't get the reference, read FF)

Originally posted by Daredevil1
And yet he has had the upperhand on Cap but inclusive fights with him in the end. Defeated the Cat(Shang's rival easily), even defeated Elektra herself once, but Elektra beat him back "easily."

Originally posted by Daredevil1
You can disagree just like I disagree that Shiva isn't the top notch like she once was, as her final showings were anything but stellar. In terms of skill and over all record Shiva has gone down more then Elektra. Shiva is not winning this but you can disagree.

Originally posted by Konton

Why is this guy so obsessed with her ONE loss to Bullseye that happened decades ago?

Same reason "that guy" is obsessed with Shiva' s low ends, probably. 🙁

Although calling a humiliation by Cassandra Cain a low-end feat on the level of a loss to Bullseye says as much about his low opinion of Cass as it does anything else..

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, its not. Damaging steve's leg and impairing his sight to hold him off for some moments is not impressive. Its mediocre at best.

Considering Steve is one of the best and is a super soldier its a good showing for both since it was a stalemate.

He outfought elektra in skills, not in weapons. In MA he's always been a C lister. Anybody who gets destroyed in h2h by ****ing punisher is C list by default.

He out fought Elektra the first time true. But he used a slicing card on her neck before he used her sai as well IIRC. Lets say your right and he is a C list by default. But his inante skills our always with weapons anyways.

Because he has learned about DD, not that he's skilled enough to stalemate him.

DD had a chance now to adapt to him as well. Besides it was a stalemate.

You are comparing Shiva to Bullseye now?

To a certain extent but to different degrees. Your yourself put Bullseye at a C because he lost to Pun(B-list) in hth.

So by your logic Shiva lost to Cass(A list) so by your logic Shiva, and then lost terribly to her the next time. So going that route B-list Shiva.

That was due to him having learned all the moves of theirs, not due to skills. Deadpool is just too variable to use as a reference. At best he's a B level MA.

Bullseye did very well and stalemated Daredevil who had aid from Elektra the both know Bullseye abilities well to. I agree with you Deadpool is a variable but considering his power-set. Not to shabby.

He was weakened due to constantly fighting through the enemies for days before that and was out of his mind because he was drugged by Mysterio and his senses were scrambled. The next time they met Matt beat the shit out of Bullseye in moments.

He was drugged as to be protective/paranoid about the infant. I just got done looking at the back issues briefly and DD was not really injured nor mental drained badly. In fact Dr. Strange had cured DD from the drug. As he seemed good to go.

A very impressive victory for Bullseye the so called C-lister.

Its not the best, its the worst. Stalemated by phucking hercules? LOL.

Yes it is Hercules. Despite his name it's not such a terrible showing.

She was MORTALLY wounded. Doesn't means anything if she is enhanced or not, being mortally wounded would hamper her much. Its embarrassing.

Noted that she was wounded severely but doesn't change what BW is.

So she blinded shiva and was commenting how she can't beat shiva and you think that's a bad showing? Hercules anyone?

Yes she blinded her in the fight using her own blood spit, as then she hit Shiva enough times to knock her down and gain a advantage.

Herc seemed to have the better weapons for combat and all he got was a stalemate.

I don't think that's what happened. TBF its been a long time since I read that story, scans would be appreciated.

I was incorrect on the finished him "off" part. But the rest was right. Gypsy dodged his punch and avoided him.(while shiva lost in 3 secs) Huntress blocked his attack with her cross bows but was kicked down on the ground and then attacked again and was hurt. Prom got close to him and Huntress punched him in the groin and he went down like Frazier. Gypsy took advantage of it and hit him with his own weapon.

But he was up again and reclaimed his weapon. After that Huntress told him to just leave because they can't stop him. He agreed but stated that Huntress herself gave him more problems then Superman. (They both compliment one another)

But Huntress individually and Gypsy seemed more on point then even Shiva.

The Batgod of Morrison would do that to anyone. Prom flat out humiliated him though and he was beating a prepared batman again.

Batgod....eh....... So you don't think Batman should have done that good against Prom?

Bad writing. That's what we call PIS in the forums.

Oh and would you call PIS to the moments your trying to use for Elektra I wonder?

Yeah, superman noticed that. Grodd's victims always underperform though, so that's not the case here.

But it was Grodd who notice how well they could be even the weaker ones as, as Nightshade or some lady in Black(I forget her name). Batman had to save Superman from her. As Superman noted it would not be easy against Mongul until he took the dials up.

If there is a comment in that arch that stated they were underperformed? What number?

Nope, just like you showed even a less skilled fighter can stalemate a more skilled one if his vision is disabled.

Difference is catching someone with spit, is more unexpected then your normally of being incredible with any weapon in your hands.

Besides Bullseye also not only killed Elektra, but defeated DD, and stalemated DD another time as well to boot.

Anybody who can dismiss Batman as a "Promising Amateur" is far beyond Shang-chi. Batman is not bullseye, he's a standard of fighters as much as superman is for strength. Marvel fanboys might think that every street level character from marvel is more skilled than him (I've seen people giving punisher wins over him) it wouldn't be true.

I don't see why you view Richard above Shang. He's record doesn't seem superior nor his skill feats for sure. Punisher is good with prep and has incredible damage soak. But I agree that Batman would win the majority if not every time.

ABC logic doesn't work here. Elektra being killed by bullseye is her and only her humiliating defeat by a C lister MA.

Accept that C lister has defeated Daredevil, Elektra, and held them both off at another time by himself. Definitely not a C lister.

She was mortally wounded, its embarrassing.

Stalemated a enhanced agent. It's not like she took the type of thrashing that Shiva got. There both not so good feat correct. But Shiva looks the worse because what happened to her.

The only loss worth mentioning is from the second fight with Cass who fell unconscious after that. A true stalemate if there was one. Who are all these A listers who have been defeated by Elektra BTW?

More stalemates then defeats. IIRC she defeated Taskmaster and Silver Samurai who was upgraded IIRC.

He's a C lister from start and his skills with weapons wouldn't change anything. Context with the fight with DD and Elektra and the fight with DD. Elektra is herself a B lister, so I don't get surprised for that.

Elektra is a A-lister as she has stalemated or had advantages on A listers. Context doesn't help you on Bullseye defeating Daredevil in vol 2#5(though he is better) nor Bullseye holding his own against DD/Scrull Elektra.

Yeah and that means what exactly? She got killed by a C lister and then beat him. Its not much ti bragg about. If you get beat by a child in fist fight and then beat him later, it wouldn't do good for your reputation.

Disagree and covered above.

Elektra is a better fighter than Bullseye, Shiva is FAR better than Elektra though.

I disagree and think Elektra is better then Shiva.

Originally posted by Philosophía
That wasn't a fight. They each threw something at eachother and blocked it.It doesn't say anything about how an actual fight would go between them, much less about their skill level - other than the fact that they're good enough to block projectiles (Shang Chi using a table to do so).

http://s593.beta.photobucket.com/user/elektrarespectthread/media/Elektra_Fights_Elektra_v1_16_06.jpg.html
http://s593.beta.photobucket.com/user/elektrarespectthread/media/Elektra_Fights_Elektra_v1_16_07.jpg.html

They weren't both using lethal weapons either [only Elektra was, unless you want to suggest that Shang Chi's sticks were impaling weapons?]

Don't be absurd. Your argument is thin as it is, you don't want me to start making fun of it.

Shang did use weapons. He used both Elektra sais and kicked them right back at her. They both showed to be equal to one another and it was indeed a stalemate even there talents were matched with both doing something on the fly. Like I stated.

Shang threw his chop sticks as Elektra easily countered them.

Elektra threw her sais as Shang counter blocked using the table.

Shang kicked the sais back at Elektra and Elektra easily caught them.

As I repeat they both used deadly force. You can make fun of me if you want. But it would be irrelevant.

If you feel you have a fight where Elektra beat Daredevil fair and square, please post it. If it's another one where she lays traps, Daredevil's feelings are clearly stated as impending in judgement or something similar, don't bother. I've read them all.

So have I. But my point stands that before the circumstance played in they had stalemated one another. Either way.

Yes, Daredevil normally defeats them in the end. But that says nothing about Elektra, who gets into stalemates with B-list Black Widow, or exchanges wins with Bullseye. Punisher? Yes, she proved to be faster than him. So did Black Widow. The same Black Widow who stalemated Elektra recently. The same Black Widow who lost to Bullseye. The same Bullseye who lost to Punisher. The same Punisher who beat Bullseye.

Rock. Paper. Scissors.

With Daredevil being the Ultimate Nullifier. Because he is A-list, and they're B-list.

Your rock,paper, scissors is off a bit since Bullseye has stalemated and defeated Daredevil as well. Both DD/Elektra are A-list.

What part of "he is all over the place" was miscommunicated? Taskmaster can go from getting beaten by B-lists, to humiliating them, to outfighting Captain America. If consistency was a character, he'd be his evil brother.

I can agree with this but Shiva has her ups and downs as well. Especially the latter portion of her career. If you want to analyze TM.

Not at all, Shiva is consistently A-list. Elektra's A-list showings, on the other hand, are there only if you squint.

Sure Shiva is a A-list if you close your eyes on some of her showings.

While Elektra does this to TM.
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/2678/elektra0718.jpg

Prom(who is varies up/down like TM) does this to Shiva.

While Elektra does stalemates Shang.
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/4351/elektra1605.jpg
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/7238/elektra1606.jpg
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/5513/elektra1607.jpg

Shiva has to be saved by her henchmen against Dragon.

Elektra getting her own sai in her by Bullseye was her past.

While Shiva getting defeated flawless by Cass and put up on a hook became her future unfortunately.

Is it really so wrong to admit Shiva has lost a bit of a step?

Showing a few of Shivas shortcomings does nothing to change the fact that she is a better and more skilled fighter than Elektra. Admit that

Originally posted by namorsubby
Showing a few of Shivas shortcomings does nothing to change the fact that she is a better and more skilled fighter than Elektra. Admit that

And Cass would wtfrapestomp Elektra and Bullseye anyways.

If we go by feats, Elektra wins.

She has dodged sniper rifle gunfire AFTER it was shot, using only the muzzle flash as a warning. She's got bullet timer feats up the wazoo, Shiva doesn't.

Strength feats? She has Shiva beat there too. While drugged she tore her way out of a straight jacket. She's kicked down massive steel doors, thrown her sai with such force and accuracy that it not only plugged her opponents gun, but also ripped his hand off. She throws grown men around into the air like they were made of paper. She was strong enough to cut through the toughest materials SHIELD could gather in the form of a psychotic android. Remember when she broke out of that SHIELD facility by spitting her tooth (while completely restrained) down Paladin's throat before ramming a blunt pole through his abdomen? Paladin has superhuman durability, by the by.

Speed? She moves so fast that cameras can't see her. Punisher couldn't stop her from taking his gun and killing his targets before he gets to them. She blitzed the X-Mansion and kidnapped Polaris.

Endurance? Elektra, while drugged, starved, and delirious is faster than a cobra. Also faster than Bullseye under near the same conditions, plus poisoned.

Durability? Elektra got right back up after being slammed into a mail box by Luke Cage. She took on multiple Super Skrulls at the same time, only going down after taking MULTIPLE blows from Skrull Colossus, which is CRAZY.

Plus, she has her silent scream, enhanced healing, complete anatomical control (can stop pain and blood loss just by focusing), her telepathic feedback is enough to cause brain hemorrhaging, etc.

Shiva's done what? All I remember her doing is beating up Robin and suckerpunching Bronze Tiger. Richard Dragon was winning in their fight until Shiva's goons got in the way. Got owned by Prometheus. Lost to her daughter a few times. She has a better reputation than she has track record.

Originally posted by Konton

thrown her sai with such force and accuracy that it not only plugged her opponents gun, but also ripped his hand off.

Oh, and that's not all. She threw it hard enough to rip off his hand and propel it through a layer of kevlar, through his body, and out the other side.

Also impressive:

Originally posted by jinzin
Elektra shows decent strength easily snapping chains that hold her to the ground even without the leverage of her feet.

Elektra's explosive power as she easily kicks down/ caves in two massive golden doors.

Crushes a man's head with her grip strength.

Easily hoists a man into the air with one arm after carrying him up a later and having been on the run for 1 hour.

More incredibly explosive strength as she's able to swiftly move UNDERWATER faster than the ey can follow killing multiple Hand members around her before they could even defend themselves.

That's some weird stuff.

bump