Vitiate vs ROTS Sidious

The Hero of Tython and Tol Braga are easily equal to the brothers, the presence of two more Jedi identified to be among the strongest in the galaxy means that Vitiate's feat eclipses Sidious'. Besides which is his feat of his lightning being greatly more powerful than Nyriss' (yes, 'infinitely more powerful' is hyperbole, but its unambiguous that the meaning is that his lightning is far more powerful than hers), which was enough to break through a Force Shield and disintegrate a being. Before you point out that Dromund Kaas is a Force Nexus, I will point out that that is irrelevent since Nyriss' Force Shield would have been equally boosted by a nexus, cancelling out any boost to the Force Lightning.

There is no doubt in my mind that Vitiate has the greatest proficiency with Force Lightning in the mythos thus far demonstrated. And his TK is in my mind no less powerful than Sidious' own. Thus why I say that Vitiate can take Sidious in a contest of the Force.

You started your argument with a nice leap in logic……

The Hero of Tython and Tol Braga are easily equal to the brothers,

To my knowledge, both Maul and Savage have demonstrated superior Force and saber showings, and they are not exactly lacking the hype either.

For the record, I’m not saying it is impossible that Braga and JK are comparable to Savage or Maul. I’m rather sympathetic to this notion, especially regarding JK who should be powerful from what we get from TOR. But it is your job to list feats / hype that make them so, one sweeping sentence from you is not enough.

presence of two more Jedi identified to be among the strongest in the galaxy means that Vitiate's feat eclipses Sidious'.

So no, Vitiate’s feat does not eclipse Sidious’s.

Which brings me to my next point, and this is crucial.
You completely fail to understand the DS nexus boost and how it relates to Vitiate’s feats.

Vitiate was fighting the Jedi team when his powers were boosted. Thus, in any other setting he will not be as impressive. Period.

Besides which is his feat of his lightning being greatly more powerful than Nyriss' (yes, 'infinitely more powerful' is hyperbole, but its unambiguous that the meaning is that his lightning is far more powerful than hers), which was enough to break through a Force Shield and disintegrate a being.

Moreover, Revan “only” struggled with Vitiates’s lightning, while said Vitiate was boosted by a DS nexus.

By contrast, Sidious’s lightning rendered Yoda unconscious, while Sidious was not boosted by DS nexus, and while he was fighting a Jedi more powerful than Revan.

Thus, it is clear that Sidious is more powerful in that regard.

Before you point out that Dromund Kaas is a Force Nexus, I will point out that that is irrelevent since Nyriss' Force Shield would have been equally boosted by a nexus, cancelling out any boost to the Force Lightning.

It is extremely relevant. Just imagine Sidious/Bane/Dooku/ or any other darksider boosted by Dromund Kass DS nexus,…Their powers would be beyond what they demostrate on a neutal setting, and what they demonstrate on a neutral setting rivals or, dare I say, sometimes eclipses Vitiate’s showing while he was boosted.
This is that simple and I don’t think this point needs to be reiterated.

There is no doubt in my mind that Vitiate has the greatest proficiency with Force Lightning in the mythos thus far demonstrated. And his TK is in my mind no less powerful than Sidious' own. Thus why I say that Vitiate can take Sidious in a contest of the Force

Not to mention Palpatine, but Galen Marek’s lightning and TK immediately come to mind.

Yoda, Vader, hell even arguably Dooku showed more impressive TK and this list is not complete at all. And neither one of them displayed these abilities while boosted by a Force nexus. Your point is moot.

There is simply no reason why in a neutral setting Vitiate will be as powerful as when he was when boosted by Dromund Kass nexus. And even then his combat prowess does not exceed Sidious's, rather the opposite is true.

I can see that you did not address all of my points, for example about Sidious virtually peerless combat speed that will grant him a solid advanateg over Vitiate.
I take then that you agree with this premise.

As said before, Sidious wins. 🙂

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Hero of Tython and Tol Braga are easily equal to the brothers,

Based on what?

Originally posted by Nephthys
the presence of two more Jedi identified to be among the strongest in the galaxy means that Vitiate's feat eclipses Sidious'.

I'd need to see some feats and accolades for all before making my judgment, but they managed to repulse some of Vitiate's attack whereas the brothers were absolutely and utterly helpless despite their own attested prodigious powers.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Before you point out that Dromund Kaas is a Force Nexus, I will point out that that is irrelevent since Nyriss' Force Shield would have been equally boosted by a nexus, cancelling out any boost to the Force Lightning.

I'm glad to see you finally conceded the point about Dromund Kaas. Nevertheless, Nyriss paused to channel her energies (sensed by Scourge) to summon the lightning whereas her shield was conjured almost immediately to repulse the lightning. It is no surprise that the sudden shield was torn apart by her gathered energies and is perhaps indicative of a weakness in that respect.

Originally posted by Nephthys
There is no doubt in my mind that Vitiate has the greatest proficiency with Force Lightning in the mythos thus far demonstrated.

Based on?

Originally posted by Nephthys
And his TK is in my mind no less powerful than Sidious' own.

What about in the real world, son?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thus why I say that Vitiate can take Sidious in a contest of the Force.

I disagree. Sidious enjoys an advantage in both feats and accolades. Vitiate's only prayer is to subdue the Emperor psychically and that notion has been soundly debunked. Vitiate will put up a great fight, but the smarter, stronger, and more successful Sith Master will ultimately prevail.

Didn't a burst of lightning from Sidious wiped out a few hundred stormtroopers without hitting his own royal guards who were near him.

It was less than 50 stormtroopers, but yes.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
You started your argument with a nice leap in logic……

Hardly a leap, I've established as much in previous threads. You can't expect me to relist every accomplishment every time.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Okay.... prove it tehn.

To my knowledge, both Maul and Savage have demonstrated superior Force and saber showings, and they are not exactly lacking the hype either.

For the record, I’m not saying it is impossible that Braga and JK are comparable to Savage or Maul. I’m rather sympathetic to this notion, especially regarding JK who should be powerful from what we get from TOR. But it is your job to list feats / hype that make them so, one sweeping sentence from you is not enough.

Tol Braga duelled a Dark Council member for days before convincing him to turn to the lightside. Furthermore he was chosen as the leader of the strike team against the Emperor, a team which two sources describe as being made up of the strongest Jedi in the galaxy. Furthermore he puts up a great fight against the Hero of Tython shortly before the Hero would defeat Vitiate (as in, right before), at one point overpowering them with a Force Push and pressing the Hero hard.

The Hero of Tython obviously barely needs supporting. You know that s/he would go on to defeat Vitiate on a Darkside Nexus. As a padawan and on their first day on Tython they outclass Ordus Din, the most experienced Jedi in the Order, by defeating Bengal Marr with only a training saber. They defeat Lord Praven, a Sith Lord who was at the Sacking of Coruscant and defeated one of the most celebrated Jedi duelists. They then go on to fight through a Star Destroyer, defeat Darth Angral and then the Emperor possessing Kira. The Hero of Tython also defeats Lord Scourge. Naturally s/he are also part of the strongest Jedi in the galaxy quote and upon your return to the Order Satale Shan names the Hero as the Jedi's greatest champion. Of all of the strike team the Hero was likely the strongest as s/he was the one to push through the Emperor's lightning the most and get closest to him before being overwhelmed.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Kolar, Tiin and Fisto were also noted as “one of the best warriors Jedi order ever produced” or something in that fashion, and in contrast to the “mooks” that accompanied JK and Braga, they actually have feats.

So no, Vitiate’s feat does not eclipse Sidious’s.

Which brings me to my next point, and this is crucial.
You completely fail to understand the DS nexus boost and how it relates to Vitiate’s feats.

Vitiate was fighting the Jedi team when his powers were boosted. Thus, in any other setting he will not be as impressive. Period.

Sidious did not overpower them with the Force, but with his superior speed. I am discussing purely Vitiate's and Sidious' respective feats with the Force.

Vitiate didn't overpower them on a nexus. 😉

The fight happens aboard his fortress in space.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
The fact tha Nyriss is described as less powerful than Vitiate indicates that, and only that, that she is less powerful.

No, it indicates that Vitiate is vastly more powerful, which is what the quote actually says. Which is impressive seeing as Nyriss easily curbstomped Scourge and the Exile at the same time and has the aforementioned extremely potent Force Lightning.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Moreover, Revan “only” struggled with Vitiates’s lightning, while said Vitiate was boosted by a DS nexus.

By contrast, Sidious’s lightning rendered Yoda unconscious, while Sidious was not boosted by DS nexus, and while he was fighting a Jedi more powerful than Revan.

Thus, it is clear that Sidious is more powerful in that regard.

Whats clear is that your logic sucks. Yoda showed no indication of blocking Sidious' lightning meaning that Sidious basically just rendered a defenceless frail, ancient midget unconscious. For about 5 seconds. When Yoda actually had the opportunity to resist he did so admirably. By contrast when Revan did the same thing against Vitiate he was zapped in submission and overwhelmed. And Revan's skill with Tutaminis is close to if not equal to Yoda's.

And this was 300 years before TOR. Who knows how much more powerful Vitiate could have become.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
You dismissing DS nexus boost as irrelevant is ….well, astonishing... to say the least..

It is extremely relevant. Just imagine Sidious/Bane/Dooku/ or any other darksider boosted by Dromund Kass DS nexus,…Their powers would be beyond what they demostrate on a neutal setting, and what they demonstrate on a neutral setting rivals or, dare I say, sometimes eclipses Vitiate’s showing while he was boosted.
This is that simple and I don’t think this point needs to be reiterated.

You've missed my point completely, friend.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Really? I think you’ve got carried away, my friend.

Not to mention Palpatine, but Galen Marek’s lightning and TK immediately come to mind.

Yoda, Vader, hell even arguably Dooku showed more impressive TK and this list is not complete at all. And neither one of them displayed these abilities while boosted by a Force nexus. Your point is moot.

There is simply no reason why in a neutral setting Vitiate will be as powerful as when he was when boosted by Dromund Kass nexus. And even then his combat prowess does not exceed Sidious's, rather the opposite is true.

I can see that you did not address all of my points, for example about Sidious virtually peerless combat speed that will grant him a solid advanateg over Vitiate.
I take then that you agree with this premise.

As said before, Sidious wins. 🙂

Really, Vader and Dooku have demolished huge temples whilst dying and cut in half? They've disintegrated metal with casual waves of their hands? Yeah didn't think so. I believe it is you who has gotten carried away here.

Yeah, I've acknowledged that Sidious has a significant lightsaber advantage over Vitiate, to the point where I would be hesitant to call Vitiate the victor in overall combat. I will however point out that he's dealt with opponents attempting to rush him with a lightsaber 3 times, in his every appearance and that he has shadowclone no jutsu and bubble-shields to protect him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm glad to see you finally conceded the point about Dromund Kaas. Nevertheless, Nyriss paused to channel her energies (sensed by Scourge) to summon the lightning whereas her shield was conjured almost immediately to repulse the lightning. It is no surprise that the sudden shield was torn apart by her gathered energies and is perhaps indicative of a weakness in that respect.

I concede nothing, I just knew you'd bring it up so I was pre-emptive in my argument. And that doesn't refute my point, nothing suggests that a nexus empowers you more if you're more powerful, or if you use more powerful attacks. The effect should have consistently boosted the shield and the lightning by the same degree. If it exists at all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I concede nothing, I just knew you'd bring it up so I was pre-emptive in my argument.

Sure, sure. excellent

Originally posted by Nephthys
And that doesn't refute my point, nothing suggests that a nexus empowers you more if you're more powerful, or if you use more powerful attacks. The effect should have consistently boosted the shield and the lightning by the same degree.

No, my point was that a charged attack tearing through last-second defenses isn't surprising.

Originally posted by Nephthys
[B]The Hero of Tython and Tol Braga are easily equal to the brothers, the presence of two more Jedi identified to be among the strongest in the galaxy means that Vitiate's feat eclipses Sidious'. Besides which is his feat of his lightning being greatly more powerful than Nyriss' (yes, 'infinitely more powerful' is hyperbole, but its unambiguous that the meaning is that his lightning is far more powerful than hers), which was enough to break through a Force Shield and disintegrate a being. Before you point out that Dromund Kaas is a Force Nexus, I will point out that that is irrelevent since Nyriss' Force Shield would have been equally boosted by a nexus, cancelling out any boost to the Force Lightning.

Also prove mid-game Hero of Tython is stronger than Darth Maul who is easily superior to all but the most elite Jedi Council members of the age. He has no Dark Council kills up to that point. Darth Angral wasn't on the Council.

Tol Braga defeated a Dark Council member, but so what? Savage was able to demolish a Jedi Council member.

The other two mooks are just that, mooks, with inferior feats to Tol and HoT.

May I ask why dueling a featless Dark Council member is more impressive than defeating Adi Gallia, who has proved GG's equal?

There is no doubt in my mind that Vitiate has the greatest proficiency with Force Lightning in the mythos thus far demonstrated. And his TK is in my mind no less powerful than Sidious' own. Thus why I say that Vitiate can take Sidious in a contest of the Force.

Meh, that there was resistance makes it an exceptional feat. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall it being implied the shield was weak or hastily made. Revan did mouth off before he fired it back, so she had time to react. Either way it is still one of the best lightning feats, and for Vitiate to greatly exceed it on top of his curbstomp of the strike team indicates to me that he is the best. Better than all the rest. He is simply the be-eeee-eeeest.

Mizukage_Yoda
Except Revan also boosted it with his own power.

No he doesn't.

Nyriss’s eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her. She tried to throw up another Force shield, but the bolts ripped it apart and continued on unabated. The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Meh, that there was resistance makes it an exceptional feat. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall it being implied the shield was weak or hastily made.
Revan did mouth off before he fired it back, so she had time to react. Either way it is still one of the best lightning feats, and for Vitiate to greatly exceed it on top of his curbstomp of the strike team indicates to me that he is the best. Better than all the rest. He is simply the be-eeee-eeeest.

The text very clearly depicts Nyriss as conjuring the shield after Revan's brief smack talk; the attack carried on "unabated." There is no indication there was resistance at all.

Also sorry to burst your bubble Neph, but the Emperor's Space Station is cloaked in orbit of Dromund Kaas. He still had the boost.

It is later moved to Ilum by Darth Malgus.

Man, **** responding to 3 of you at once. **** that noise.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
No he doesn't.

Nyriss’s eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her. She tried to throw up another Force shield, but the bolts ripped it apart and continued on unabated. The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash.

Point conceded, my other point still stands though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Man, **** responding to 3 of you at once. **** that noise.

GG

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Point conceded, my other point still stands though.

👆

Fair enough, I'm just trying to lend my beleaguered sex slave a hand (wink, wink). The truth is that Nephthys's painfully limited intellect is rapidly straining under the stress of attempting to combat my inexorable victory. The presence of yourself and axel_jovan only compounds his struggle. Still, I must commend him for his effort. Alas, the fact that Sidious is smarter, stronger, more powerful and skilled than any other Sith Lord continues to thwart even his most sincere efforts.

Hence his profound fear of me. Fortunately, what he lacks in brains he makes up for in an inviting anal cavity. 313

I'm on my brother's crappy weed-covered, virus-infected notebook atm. It's hard enoug hto refresh the page, let along respond. It's not for lack of ability, I assure you.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm on my brother's crappy weed-covered, virus-infected notebook atm. It's hard enoug hto refresh the page, let along respond. It's not for lack of ability, I assure you.

My lady doth protest too much.

I grant you permission to retreat into your cave of insecurity and inadequacy. Later, I will plunder another cave of yours with an unprecedented tenacity. excellent

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm on my brother's crappy weed-covered, virus-infected notebook atm. It's hard enoug hto refresh the page, let along respond. It's not for lack of ability, I assure you.

You getting high without me Neph? 😉