Originally posted by NephthysLol at it being more of an interpretation. Starkiller does not do more dangerous things. He short-circuits an AT-AT, but that isn't necessarily more powerful than disintegration.
Dunno about his FL. But his TK is easily as dangerous. Probably a lot more so. The guy blew up half a frigate into tiny pieces (TFUII).
Originally posted by Nephthys
Nice comeback. Really forceful. Now I know you mean business. 👆
It wasn't ninja'd by Mizukage since he didn't actually respond to any of it.
Tol Braga duelled a Dark Council member for days before convincing him to turn to the lightside.
Furthermore he was chosen as the leader of the strike team against the Emperor, a team which two sources describe as being made up of the strongest Jedi in the galaxy.
He had been held in a high-esteem, perhaps. Of course, one does not preclude the other but you have to do much better than that, otherwise Vodo-Siosk Baas pwns all!!!
Furthermore he puts up a great fight against the Hero of Tython shortly before the Hero would defeat Vitiate (as in, right before), at one point overpowering them with a Force Push and pressing the Hero hard.
The Hero of Tython obviously barely needs supporting. You know that s/he would go on to defeat Vitiate on a Darkside Nexus.
Hero of Tython is canonically not as strong as Yoda, and still he managed to defeat Vitiate (who had been amped by DS nexus).
Thus, it is clear than that Yoda would have an easier time defeating Vitiate, and by extension Sidious (more or less Yoda’s equal) would too./thread. 😎
Thanks Neph for pointing that out.
As a padawan and on their first day on Tython they outclass Ordus Din, the most experienced Jedi in the Order, by defeating Bengal Marr with only a training saber. They defeat Lord Praven, a Sith Lord who was at the Sacking of Coruscant and defeated one of the most celebrated Jedi duelists. They then go on to fight through a Star Destroyer, defeat Darth Angral and then the Emperor possessing Kira. The Hero of Tython also defeats Lord Scourge. Naturally s/he are also part of the strongest Jedi in the galaxy quote and upon your return to the Order Satale Shan names the Hero as the Jedi's greatest champion. Of all of the strike team the Hero was likely the strongest as s/he was the one to push through the Emperor's lightning the most and get closest to him before being overwhelmed.
As I said, HoT should be powerful form what we know, and he is. But Maul and Savage are too, and do not see him outclassing them.
But he didn't do it, therefore you cannot use it as a comparison. It was utterly irrelevant.
I'm sorry, but I'm going to need to see some actual proof that Yoda attempted to block it. It may make sense to you that he would have tried, but to me it doesn't make sense that he couldn't block it there but could block it later.
He's so good that he can make his lightning move faster than normal huh? Well that is pretty good. Why it's almost unbelievable in fact.
No. For instance, you can demolish a massive temple with TK whilst cut nearly in half, dying and exhausted.
Yeah, but no. They haven't done anything on the scale of what Vitiate did. Dooku lifted some stones, great. Vitiate destroyed a huge temple. Thats about a few hundred times bigger than those stones.
Even amped its laughable to say they would outclass Vitiate.
It is very said that you dismiss Dooku and Vader’s showings, which quite frankly are every bit as impressive as Vitiate. For the sake of brevity:
Vader:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t524326.html
http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/silver2467/anakin-skywalkerdarth-vader-feats/108-456275/
Seriously, everything that Vader showed in TFU alone, puts his TK at least on the level of Vitiate’s. Now, if Vader taps in DS nexus on Dromund Kaas, Vitiate is fvcked….
Dooku:
http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/silver2467/count-dooku-feats/108-573154/
Also:
From Dark Rendezvous:
"Don't patronize me," Asajj said coldly.
Dooku looked around. "Or what?"
Her face went pale. Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain.
"Please," she said. "Don't."
"It doesn't feel very good, does it? Like sharp stones in your throat and chest."
Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor.
"It's the blood vessels I hate," Dooku said. "The way they stretch inside, like balloons about to pop."
"P-p-p-please..."
"But worse than anything is the memories," he said, more softly still. "They crowd around, like flies on meat. Every despicable thing, every petty vice, every little act of spite."
A cruel, strange quiet stretched out as Ventress panted on the stone floor. Rain ticked against the window glass, and the Count's soft voice went dark and far away.
"All the things you should have stopped, but didn't, and nothing will ever be right again. And the things you've done," he whispered. "By the pitiless stars, the things you've done..."
The comm on Dooku's desk beeped. He shook his head, like a man waking from a dream.
"The Troxan delegation is at the door."
Ventress crawled to her feet. Her face was bruised and her cheeks were wet with tears. Both pretended not to notice.
"Tell them I'll be right down," Count Dooku said."
DS amped Dooku by lifting a frikking finger absolutely paralyzes Ventress (quite similar to what Yoda did to her on Toydaria in CW season 1)
In short, yes, Dooku and Vader had showed themselves perfectly capable of dealing with Vitiate.
Yes, Sidious could definitely win a lightsaber duel, but I didn't say that Vitiate would lose an all-out fight. I mentioned those other things as possibilities of how Vitiate could mitigate Sidious' lightsaber advantage in an all-out duel.
Moreover, his amped Force-powers are not unmatched, as many would like to believe, and as I have shown even Vader and Dooku could match, if not eclipse them.
As you yourself posted, it took a Jedi less powerful than Yoda (as in Yoda ~ Sidious) to defeat Vitiate. By this token, Yoda would have easier time defeating Vitiate, as would Sidious.
All of this points to Sidious being the victor also in the Force and all-out.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Yeah, …because making a sound argument is all about quirky comebacks 👆
Do you know what separates a good debater from a superdebater?
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Good for him 😛 How good was said DC member? On pair with Maul or Savage?
As per the codex 'Anyone who becomes a Darth and lasts longer than a month has clearly earned her position through considerable power and sheer force of will.' Sajar not only became a Darth but became a Dark Council member. So lets not pretend that he was a weakling. The more impressive part is that they fought for several days straight. That's an insane feats.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
I’m sure that you’ll agree that being a leader of the “strongest” =/= being the strongest,He had been held in a high-esteem, perhaps. Of course, one does not preclude the other but you have to do much better than that, otherwise Vodo-Siosk Baas pwns all!!!
Hardly, Tol Braga had never known defeat until that point and given how much of a fight he gave the HoT and that he's bested a Dark Council member he was no noob. He was also the only one who broke Vitiate's mental domination on his own, and was given control of the forces on Corellia by the Emperor ahead of three Dark Council members.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Good feat, but it does not eclipse in any way the Brother’s showings. Maul and Savage TK still seem to have superior TK, Maul tackling a Jedi craft with ridiculous ease, while wounded, comes to mind.
Lol, putting the Hero of Tython on the defensive and getting some hits in right before the HoT defeated Vitiate is superior to pretty much any of the brothers feats. Considering Vitiate was capable of destroying a temple with his TK and he failed to overwhelm the HoT whereas Tol Braga did at one point, its a pretty impressive feat.
Also, I never said that Tol Braga eclipsed their showings. For a start I only said that he was at least on their level and that maybe he was higher.
And Maul wasn't really wounded considering it was his metal leg that was damaged.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Hmm, and as such, this feat hurts your argument more than it helps you….Hero of Tython is canonically not as strong as Yoda, and still he managed to defeat Vitiate (who had been amped by DS nexus).
Thus, it is clear than that Yoda would have an easier time defeating Vitiate, and by extension Sidious (more or less Yoda’s equal) would too./thread. 😎
Thanks Neph for pointing that out.
Wrong, buddy. That source has been invalidated for quite some time. The Hero of Tython is not canonically inferior to Yoda, and also that's a blatant ABC argument that wouldn't hold up anyway.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
All of these are good showings, though some I would still need to see how defeating Din or Marr should be seen in the greater order of things. Are they mooks, are they top-notch? But for the sake of brevity let’s skip it.As I said, HoT should be powerful form what we know, and he is. But Maul and Savage are too, and do not see him outclassing them.
You're welcome to your opinion. I think I've proven that at the time the Hero of Tython was at least on par with the Zabrak bro's, and also that Tol Braga was too. You should just admit that Vitiate's feat was superior.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Not at all. It IS relevant, for it clearly shows Sidious Force-owns them, and had he chosen to do so, he would finish them then and there.
It shows Sidious >> Maul + Savage in the Force, and given the brother’s feats this makes Sidious’s showing all the more impressive.
You've forgotten what this point is. You were talking about how he obviously could have overpowered Kit, Tiin and Kolar with the Force and acting as if him speed-blitzing them was a Force feat. It isn't, thus his defeat of those 3 is completely irrelevant when we are discussing only the Force side of the debate.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Ok, I’m not actually pressing his point, and I don’t think it is essential to make my case here. All I say is that you “don’t come into a ring and do not expect to fight”Have more faith Neph, this is Star Wars, impossible is nothing.
Cool. Concessions accepted.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
^ I’ll address this at once here.It is very said that you dismiss Dooku and Vader’s showings, which quite frankly are every bit as impressive as Vitiate. For the sake of brevity:
Vader:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t524326.htmlhttp://www.comicvine.com/myvine/silver2467/anakin-skywalkerdarth-vader-feats/108-456275/
Seriously, everything that Vader showed in TFU alone, puts his TK at least on the level of Vitiate’s. Now, if Vader taps in DS nexus on Dromund Kaas, Vitiate is fvcked….
Wrong. Vader does nothing to equal or even approach Vitiate feat of destroying the Dark Temple. The best thing he does it lift a platform. It's impressive, but the scale is completely below what Vitiate did. Do you know how freaking big the Dark Temple is? I do, I've run through it. It's enormous. Look:
Look at the size compared to the people, who are closer to the camera than it btw. Vitiate destroyed that while weakened, exhausted and dying.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Dooku:
http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/silver2467/count-dooku-feats/108-573154/Also:
From Dark Rendezvous:
"Don't patronize me," Asajj said coldly.
Dooku looked around. "Or what?"
Her face went pale. [b]Dooku lifted that one finger,
and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain."Please," she said. "Don't."
"It doesn't feel very good, does it? Like sharp stones in your throat and chest."
Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor.
"It's the blood vessels I hate," Dooku said. "The way they stretch inside, like balloons about to pop."
"P-p-p-please..."
DS amped Dooku by lifting a frikking finger absolutely paralyzes Ventress (quite similar to what Yoda did to her on Toydaria in CW season 1)[/b]
Dooku is very skillful in his TK and he is clearly not to be trifled with, yet he is still not comparable to Vitiate. That feat of pwning Ventress shows a lot of skill, but I doubt she was resisting him considering the obvious and debilitating pain she was in. Other than that I believe his most powerful TK feat was lifting those obelisks when he was training Oppress. Again, impressive, but still not close to Vitiate.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
In short, yes, Dooku and Vader had showed themselves perfectly capable of dealing with Vitiate.
In you dreams maybe. Vitiate has shown a greater capacity and ability with using TK offensively, disintegrating an armored droid with a wave of his hand, as well as more raw power in his destruction of the Dark Temple, while dying. They're simply out of their league.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
As demonstrated above and as seen in previous posts in this thread, Vitiate’s only dangerous when he is amped by DS nexus, and even then he does not display mobility needed to contend with Sidious in a saber fight.Moreover, his amped Force-powers are not unmatched, as many would like to believe, and as I have shown even Vader and Dooku could match, if not eclipse them.
As you yourself posted, it took a Jedi less powerful than Yoda (as in Yoda ~ Sidious) to defeat Vitiate. By this token, Yoda would have easier time defeating Vitiate, as would Sidious.
All of this points to Sidious being the victor also in the Force and all-out.
That hasn't been demonstrated because Vitiate has shown he is exceptionally dangerous outside of a DS nexus when he defeated the Jedi Strike Team. Furthermore theres very little (as in, theres the above and thats it) in the way of feats that he's done that people haven't dismissed as being empowered by a DS nexus. You can't demonstrate that because theres nothing outside of him being 'amped.'
In terms of Force Lightning he certainly is unmatched. In terms of his TK though I won't argue that. He is though undoubtedly superior to Vader and Dooku. And strong enough that I doubt Sidious will hold a decisive advantage in that arena.
Well since that's not true, I guess not.
Nah.