Originally posted by socool8520
You're not the sole authority on what's correct so who cares. lol
Nothing states his chakra reserves are low or would be much lower than Jiraya's as Asbestos believes.Doesn't matter if he overpowered him, he beat him plain and simple. He destroyed most of the paths of pain. That much he could have done on his own.
You could say that, and without us knowing Mito's full capabilities, I couldn't tell you that you're wrong. Besides I never said Hinata would wtf pwn Sakura, just that I think she could beat her.
Says you. uhuh
I don't know about his chakra reserves being lower than Jiraiya's, but they would certainly be lower than what they are in canon, if he did not have Kurama sealed inside him. It is outright stated in the manga that the Kyuubi's chakra continually merges with his own chakra.
Context is not your friend.
Nope. He did it with help from the Toads, knowledge on what exactly most of the Paths could do; he would never have even done that much had Deva had his powers. That was made abundantly clear once Deva quickly and easily took the Toads and Naruto out.
You're right. Bad example. I think Sasuke could wtfpwn Hashirama.
I never said you said Hinata would wtfpwn Sakura, just that Mito could wtfpwn Minato, and now, Sasuke could wtfpwn Hashirama.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Says you. uhuh
I don't know about his chakra reserves being lower than Jiraiya's, but they would certainly be lower than what they are in canon, if he did not have Kurama sealed inside him. It is outright stated in the manga that the Kyuubi's chakra continually merges with his own chakra.Context is not your friend.
Nope. He did it with help from the Toads, knowledge on what exactly most of the Paths could do; he would never have even done that much had Deva had his powers. That was made abundantly clear once Deva quickly and easily took the Toads and Naruto out.You're right. Bad example. I think Sasuke could wtfpwn Hashirama.
I never said you said Hinata would wtfpwn Sakura, just that Mito could wtfpwn Minato, and now, Sasuke could wtfpwn Hashirama.
I agree with you that his reserves would not be as high without Kuraama. My only disagreement was that it was implied they would be low. Imo , given his bloodline, and the high chakra demands that sage mode supposedly requires, Naruto would still be one of the more chakra heavy characters in the series, barring a Jinchuuriki, Kisame, and a few others.
Even Sasuke vs Hash is a bad example. Sasuke has tons of feats to go from, and Hash by virtue of besting the most powerful Uchiha to date is better. I could see your angle if Sasuke actually had less feats to go off of. lol
Originally posted by socool8520
I agree with you that his reserves would not be as high without Kuraama. My only disagreement was that it was implied they would be low. Imo , given his bloodline, and the high chakra demands that sage mode supposedly requires, Naruto would still be one of the more chakra heavy characters in the series, barring a Jinchuuriki, Kisame, and a few others.Even Sasuke vs Hash is a bad example. Sasuke has tons of feats to go from, and Hash by virtue of besting the most powerful Uchiha to date is better. I could see your angle if Sasuke actually had less feats to go off of. lol
Eh, for 16 years his chakra reserves kept increasing. So we don't know if he would be able to use Sage Mode if he never had Kurama. One thing though is that he wouldn't be able to use Tajuu Kage Bunshin which iirc, he could only use due to Kurama, so he wouldn't be able to master the Rasenshuriken.
Actually, we don't know all of Sasuke's capabilities at this point. stoned
He could use several more than anyone else in the series barring the people I already stated. He would still learn these techniques, just not quite as rapidly. Instead of weeks, maybe months? Besides, I was under the impression that Kurama was limiting in this training as the more of his personal chakra he used, the less he had to actually combat Kurama.
Well, then your statement is still up in the air then isn't it? lol
After reading this is've noticed people have a lot of good points.
Before I make a full attempt at reasoning through this ingot a few questions.
1. Why doesn't naruto have the nine tails?
Did Minato decide eh to hell with it I'm gonna seal all of the nine tails into me and take him with me into the shinigami after all I'm not going to live long enough after doing for it to matter. Or did Madera not do anything and the nine tails is still In Kushina? Or was someone else born on the same day at the same time and it was sealed into them?
For after all the circumstances would have a big effect on everything and everyone else.
2. If I understand things correctly chakra is somewhat hereditary i.e. if to people with alot of chakra have a kid then that kid would also have alot of chakra, right? Because a babys Chakra network begins to semi form from the parents right?
3. Seeing as Kushina is a jinchruuki when she got pregnant with naruto wouldn't some of kuramas Chakra mix with the babys?
Seeing as some of the bijuus trait is carried on to the kid.
If I could get an answer to those questions first before I answer yours that would be helpful.
Originally posted by firewolf
After reading this is've noticed people have a lot of good points.
Before I make a full attempt at reasoning through this ingot a few questions.
1. Why doesn't naruto have the nine tails?
Did Minato decide eh to hell with it I'm gonna seal all of the nine tails into me and take him with me into the shinigami after all I'm not going to live long enough after doing for it to matter. Or did Madera not do anything and the nine tails is still In Kushina? Or was someone else born on the same day at the same time and it was sealed into them?
For after all the circumstances would have a big effect on everything and everyone else.
2. If I understand things correctly chakra is somewhat hereditary i.e. if to people with alot of chakra have a kid then that kid would also have alot of chakra, right? Because a babys Chakra network begins to semi form from the parents right?
3. Seeing as Kushina is a jinchruuki when she got pregnant with naruto wouldn't some of kuramas Chakra mix with the babys?
Seeing as some of the bijuus trait is carried on to the kid.
If I could get an answer to those questions first before I answer yours that would be helpful.
1. It was my understanding that he entrusted the 9 tails to Naruto because he believed that Naruto would be able to handle it and that he would later be able to use the 9 tails's power to save the viallage.
2. I can't think of a situation where this isn't the case.
3. I'm not sure. It was a separate entity when it coincided with Kushina so I would think that Naruto would not have been affected until Kurama was actually a part of him.
Originally posted by socool8520
1. It was my understanding that he entrusted the 9 tails to Naruto because he believed that Naruto would be able to handle it and that he would later be able to use the 9 tails's power to save the viallage.2. I can't think of a situation where this isn't the case.
3. I'm not sure. It was a separate entity when it coincided with Kushina so I would think that Naruto would not have been affected until Kurama was actually a part of him.
But wasn't kuramas Chakra already mixed with Kushina's so wouldn't some of that mix with naruto's cuz last I checked that was part of the reason naruto had the "whiskers"? And that still doesn't answer the first question because there has to be a reason why the nine tails is not sealed in naruto or I'm going to have to go with the scenario that madras never tried anything and naruto's parents are alive or that kurama killed them all that night.
Originally posted by yungz22errr, his destiny would have been cut short if not for the nine tails saving his ass way back part 1 of the series... unless you're asserting that Asura would have somehow intervened when Naruto's life was about to end.
No naruto would not be weak because he still has destiny on his side. Hes the reincarnation of ashura badically a demigod
Originally posted by marwash22
errr, his destiny would have been cut short if not for the nine tails saving his ass way back part 1 of the series... unless you're asserting that Asura would have somehow intervened when Naruto's life was about to end.
Everything that occurred in naruto's life was prewritten his destiny is to survive and shape the world.
Wasn't alot of early Naruto retconned between the fact that Uzumaki's have huge amounts of Chakra & a hf, his parents sealing a portion of their own chakra in him, and being a reincarnated Ashura?
You could attribute his high Chakra to any of these, we have no idea how much Chakra the 9 nine tails was leaking and then remember it was only at half power.
Well of course he'd be weak. Hell, the only thing that's keeping him alive right now is the light powers from Hagaromo and his Biju mode.
Naruto would be pretty much useless if he hadn't gotten the nine tails or learned sage mode. Kind of pointless though to ask something like that, because it's so obvious and he DOES have them.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Well of course he'd be weak. Hell, the only thing that's keeping him alive right now is the light powers from Hagaromo and his Biju mode.Naruto would be pretty much useless if he hadn't gotten the nine tails or learned sage mode. Kind of pointless though to ask something like that, because it's so obvious and he DOES have them.
It's really hard to say that as we don't know how he would have evolved had he not had those abilities. We have already seen fairly strong ninja without these gifts. Hell, Gai just got a major bump and he doen't even use ninjutsu.
His chakra control more than likely would have been a lot better without Kurama screwing it up. With that, he could have mastered other techniques and became a fairly strong ninja. He still has high chakra reserves as an Uzumaki and increased vitality. He still has his ability to learn quickly in battle. His work ethic and training is still on his side.
Would he be what he is now? Of course not, but basically no one would be.
Originally posted by SSJGGogetaIt's not that pointless if you yourself believe Naruto would be "useless" without these essentially god-given powers when one of the manga's central themes is (Or was) no matter who you are or where you came from you can make something of yourself if you work hard and never give up. Naruto himself was meant to be a sort of underdog character to showcase this theme, but that's frankly always been undercut by the fact that he has a demon fox pumping him chakra, and has only been diminished further over time by prophecies and God coming down from Heaven to give him demigod powers, etc.
Well of course he'd be weak. Hell, the only thing that's keeping him alive right now is the light powers from Hagaromo and his Biju mode.Naruto would be pretty much useless if he hadn't gotten the nine tails or learned sage mode. Kind of pointless though to ask something like that, because it's so obvious and he DOES have them.
Originally posted by socool8520
It's really hard to say that as we don't know how he would have evolved had he not had those abilities. We have already seen fairly strong ninja without these gifts. Hell, Gai just got a major bump and he doen't even use ninjutsu.His chakra control more than likely would have been a lot better without Kurama screwing it up. With that, he could have mastered other techniques and became a fairly strong ninja. He still has high chakra reserves as an Uzumaki and increased vitality. He still has his ability to learn quickly in battle. His work ethic and training is still on his side.
Would he be what he is now? Of course not, but basically no one would be.
Well, not really if you think about it. If Naruto never had the fox, then it's safe to say that it would be because Minato and Kushina didn't seal it in him, which could be because of one of two reasons. Either A. Kushina died during pregnancy, which would mean Minato would have fought Obito until he won, Obito ran off, and he went to stop the fox from destroying the village. If this happened, it's likely that he would have been able to fight off the fox, and the village would have rebuilt, and the akatsuki would have all the tailed beasts. Or B. The third hokage would have used the reaper death seal to seal it into someone else, or possibly Minato.
In either scenario, Naruto grows up with a father, but no mother. In this case, Naruto would have been trained by the best people possible, such as personal training from Kakashi, Gai, Minato, Jiraiya from a young age, etc. This would lead to him becoming a very powerful ninja, possibly with Hiraishin passed down from Minato as well as rasengan still, but still only being around Minato's level or slightly higher. He would still be able to be around Kage level, but he would never be able to evolve past that, simply because he wouldn't have both Senju and Uchiha chakra, and because he wouldn't have the nine tails, and therefor wouldn't receive the light powers from Hagaromo later on.
In all of these scenario's, Naruto becomes very strong, and there's a possibility that Sasuke and his clan survive, but either way, it would be useless against the Akatsuki. He needs GODLY strength to fight the ten tails, the ten tails jinchuriki, and Kaguya. Without it, he falls faster than Minato himself did. There's a possibility he could get sage mode from Jiraiya still, but it's not enough to win here. He'd be strong as hell, but Kaguya or the Jyuubi host would still stomp, meaning the ninja world falls to Infinite Tsukiyomi.
Originally posted by NemeBro
It's not that pointless if you yourself believe Naruto would be "useless" without these essentially god-given powers when one of the manga's central themes is (Or was) no matter who you are or where you came from you can make something of yourself if you work hard and never give up. Naruto himself was meant to be a sort of underdog character to showcase this theme, but that's frankly always been undercut by the fact that he has a demon fox pumping him chakra, and has only been diminished further over time by prophecies and God coming down from Heaven to give him demigod powers, etc.
Eeeh, I see Gai and Lee as more of those kind of characters. Even Kakashi too, actually, considering his latest feats of god-level tier.
Naruto would still be incredibly strong, but not even close to the level he's at now. Unless he maybe learned the eight gates from Gai, as well as sage mode from Jiraiya, and Hiraishin, and rasengan from Minato, lol.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Well, not really if you think about it. If Naruto never had the fox, then it's safe to say that it would be because Minato and Kushina didn't seal it in him, which could be because of one of two reasons. Either A. Kushina died during pregnancy, which would mean Minato would have fought Obito until he won, Obito ran off, and he went to stop the fox from destroying the village. If this happened, it's likely that he would have been able to fight off the fox, and the village would have rebuilt, and the akatsuki would have all the tailed beasts. Or B. The third hokage would have used the reaper death seal to seal it into someone else, or possibly Minato.In either scenario, Naruto grows up with a father, but no mother. In this case, Naruto would have been trained by the best people possible, such as personal training from Kakashi, Gai, Minato, Jiraiya from a young age, etc. This would lead to him becoming a very powerful ninja, possibly with Hiraishin passed down from Minato as well as rasengan still, but still only being around Minato's level or slightly higher. He would still be able to be around Kage level, but he would never be able to evolve past that, simply because he wouldn't have both Senju and Uchiha chakra, and because he wouldn't have the nine tails, and therefor wouldn't receive the light powers from Hagaromo later on.
In all of these scenario's, Naruto becomes very strong, and there's a possibility that Sasuke and his clan survive, but either way, it would be useless against the Akatsuki. He needs GODLY strength to fight the ten tails, the ten tails jinchuriki, and Kaguya. Without it, he falls faster than Minato himself did. There's a possibility he could get sage mode from Jiraiya still, but it's not enough to win here. He'd be strong as hell, but Kaguya or the Jyuubi host would still stomp, meaning the ninja world falls to Infinite Tsukiyomi.
Originally posted by firewolf
for your first scenario how did you get that? The reason the nine tails escaped was due to madra wouldn't it also be eaa
sy to assume that he decided to terrorize some other villige like killer bees? And instead it was the hacibi that went nuts and because he never messed with kushina she would have live? And the senju and Uchiha Chakra did not come from the ninetails. Also Minato did the seal not the third and he sealed half of the nine tails into himself via that seal killing himself the third had nuthin to due with it. He could have forcibly sealed all of the nine tails into him via that seal and died having naruto grow up with no dad or mum but still there are other possible scenarios to consider witch would have changed everything. Still don't get your reason for the light powers though.
The nine-tails didn't escape the village, genius. Minato sealed it into Naruto and himself. If you mean how it escaped from Kushina, then you're still wrong. The reason it escaped was because Kushina was weakened from child-birth. In any scenario, she dies from losing the nine-tails while birthing Naruto.
Kushina would have been the jinchuriki in ANY case. She was only brought to Konoha in the first place because she was to be the jinchuriki.
Naruto doesn't have both Senju and Uchiha DNA. That was my point. Since he can't get the rinnegan through awakening it, his only hope to meeting Hagaromo would be through having Kurama, and becoming friends with all the biju, like he actually did.
I know the third didn't use it, obviously. I was saying that if Minato was fighting the nine tails, the third Hokage would have sealed it into someone because Kushina wasn't alive to restrain it. Again, it might have ironically been sealed into Minato.
The reason Naruto doesn't get the light powers is because he wouldn't have died from having the nine-tails extracted in the first place. Him and Sasuke might have never met, and if they did, they still wouldn't be able to meet Hagaromo because Naruto would have died at a different time.