ROTS Mace Windu Vs AOTC/ROTS Count Dooku

Started by The_Tempest35 pages
Originally posted by Vensai
I'd make it 50/50 if Dooku didn't in canon beat Windu in sparring

At an undetermined point in their professional past.

Originally posted by Vensai
and went up against both him and Kenobi at once during the CW.

Which means what?

We know Dooku was aided to some degree by half a dozen MagnaGuards of unknown skill and station and we do not know how long the contest lasted.

That aside, what does Dooku facing Obi-Wan and Mace and surviving mean? Savage Opress squared off with Obi-Wan and Anakin simultaneously twice in "Witches of the Mist." That didn't stop him from losing an arm to Obi-Wan alone in "Revival."

I am yet to see an argument involving Tempest that did not end up in similar fashion. But in this case I have to to take his side and go for Windu.

Seriously, I see both sides as evenly matched based on arguments. I'd make it 50/50 if Dooku didn't in canon beat Windu in sparring and went up against both him and Kenobi at once during the CW.

Dooku and Yoda are stated to be the only ones who have "ever" been able to defeat him. It doesn't mean that they were above him. If equal opponents fight, one will still win another depending on circumstances and luck. So this quote at most proves that there was parity between them, not that thay were above him.

Another fact is that Windu is given level 9 saber prowess for RotS, which is the highest level. It means that Dooku cannot be above him. And possibly below, since there is no level given to Dooku.

Even if we assume that Dooku and Windu are equals in sabers, Windu would still win in most cases because Dooku gets tired faster. When fighting Yoda, Dooku's attacks became "slow and feeble" as result of fatigue, it can be confirmed by script, novel and comic. Same is evidenced, when he fought Anakin.

On the other hand Dooku has unqestionably better Force capabilities but that's still not enough to Force handle Windu. As example Jacen had far superior powers to Mara and Jaina, yet, they could still resist his attacks. Windu in particular resisted Sidious' TK and lightning, so it is most likely that trying to Force handle him would not achieve desired result and only exhaust Dooku faster.

As of the feat against Windu and Kenobi, it is certainly impressive but still doesn't put him above Windu. We already know that he can keep Kenobi on distance with Force, so Kenobi is not much of a factor. And Dooku ran away anyway, which means that he would lose eventually and most likely started getting tired like against Yoda.

Overally there is enough evidence to believe that Dooku is equal to Yoda and Windu in sabers. I am willing to argue that Dooku is equal even to Yoda in terms of Force capabilities. But Windu still takes it. When two opponents with close skill and capabilities fight, the one with better stamina tends to win, unless there are some exceptional circumstances. And Windu has stamina in abundance as demonstrated against Kar Vastor and Sidious.

Originally posted by Arhael
I am yet to see an argument involving Tempest that did not end up in similar fashion. But in this case I have to to take his side and go for Windu.

Dooku and Yoda are stated to be the only ones who have "ever" been able to defeat him. It doesn't mean that they were above him. If equal opponents fight, one will still win another depending on circumstances and luck. So this quote at most proves that there was parity between them, not that thay were above him.

Another fact is that Windu is given level 9 saber prowess for RotS, which is the highest level. It means that Dooku cannot be above him. And possibly below, since there is no level given to Dooku.

Even if we assume that Dooku and Windu are equals in sabers, Windu would still win in most cases because Dooku gets tired faster. When fighting Yoda, Dooku's attacks became "slow and feeble" as result of fatigue, it can be confirmed by script, novel and comic. Same is evidenced, when he fought Anakin.

On the other hand Dooku has unqestionably better Force capabilities but that's still not enough to Force handle Windu. As example Jacen had far superior powers to Mara and Jaina, yet, they could still resist his attacks. Windu in particular resisted Sidious' TK and lightning, so it is most likely that trying to Force handle him would not achieve desired result and only exhaust Dooku faster.

As of the feat against Windu and Kenobi, it is certainly impressive but still doesn't put him above Windu. We already know that he can keep Kenobi on distance with Force, so Kenobi is not much of a factor. And Dooku ran away anyway, which means that he would lose eventually and most likely started getting tired like against Yoda.

Overally there is enough evidence to believe that Dooku is equal to Yoda and Windu in sabers. I am willing to argue that Dooku is equal even to Yoda in terms of Force capabilities. But Windu still takes it. When two opponents with close skill and capabilities fight, the one with better stamina tends to win, unless there are some exceptional circumstances. And Windu has stamina in abundance as demonstrated against Kar Vastor and Sidious.

Dooku is a peer to Yoda and Windu in sabers. Dooku has a recorded win against Windu in sparring, Windu doesn't. There is nothing to suggest Dooku isn't at least his equal. Dooku also held off Yoda for an impressive time considering Yoda managed to disarm Sidious fairly early into their duel.

Originally posted by Vensai
Dooku is a peer to Yoda and Windu in sabers. Dooku has a recorded win against Windu in sparring, Windu doesn't. There is nothing to suggest Dooku isn't at least his equal. Dooku also held off Yoda for an impressive time considering Yoda managed to disarm Sidious fairly early into their duel.

Dooku bested Windu in a sparring match at some unquantifiable point it time, while Dooku was still a Jedi. Thus Windu’s most powerful weapon, Vaapad, will not be in its full effect. The same Vaapad that helped Windu match Dooku’s superior, Sidious.

Dooku held off Yoda for about 30 seconds on Geneosis, after that he felt the need to flee. On Vjun even DS ampted Dooku was still no match for Yoda. In both cases Yoda did not mean to kill Dooku.

As Arhael pointed out astutely, Dooku will most certainly tire out more quickly than Windu, given that Windu will be using both his and Dooku’s power.

Windu has an edge over Dooku, he wins.

All this is bases off of the thought that Sidious is superior to Dooku in lightsaber combat which I've yet to see proof of.

Originally posted by axel_jovan

Dooku held off Yoda for about 30 seconds on Geneosis, after that he felt the need to flee.

After 2 other fights and an exhaustive force contest.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
On Vjun even DS ampted Dooku was still no match for Yoda. In both cases Yoda did not mean to kill Dooku.

Yoda outright stated he would kill him, while clearly implying that he was always willing to.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
As Arhael pointed out astutely, Dooku will most certainly tire out more quickly than Windu, given that Windu will be using both his and Dooku’s power.

I'm not buying it. Just because he tired against Peak Skywalker and Yoda on both occassions after fighting other combatants does not mean he's going to so easily tire in a one on one fair fight against Windu.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
All this is bases off of the thought that Sidious is superior to Dooku in lightsaber combat which I've yet to see proof of.

👆

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
After 2 other fights and an exhaustive force contest.

AotC novel states that Dooku replenished his Force reserves at whim just after Anakin/Obi-Wan fight. He was as good as new. 🙂
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yoda outright stated he would kill him, while clearly implying that he was always willing to.

Quote/source?

I recall Yoda telling Dooku in Dark Rendezvous: “I don’t want to harm you” (loose paraphrase). My memory can be rusty though…

Well, Yoda never actually attacked Dooku in the Force. He only pushed aside Dooku’s Force attacks and redirected Dooku’s own lightning at him. I doubt it was so exhausting for the good Count. It was rather their saber fight that tired Dooku.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I'm not buying it. Just because he tired against Peak Skywalker and Yoda on both occassions after fighting other combatants does not mean he's going to so easily tire in a one on one fair fight against Windu.

Sure he will. It’s not simply only a matter of Mace’s and Dooku’s Force reserves. Mace will also tap into Dooku’s own darkness.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Dooku bested Windu in a sparring match at some unquantifiable point it time, while Dooku was still a Jedi. Thus Windu’s most powerful weapon, Vaapad, will not be in its full effect. The same Vaapad that helped Windu match Dooku’s superior, Sidious.
Dooku held off Yoda for about 30 seconds on Geneosis, after that he felt the need to flee. On Vjun even DS ampted Dooku was still no match for Yoda. In both cases Yoda did not mean to kill Dooku.
As Arhael pointed out astutely, Dooku will most certainly tire out more quickly than Windu, given that Windu will be using both his and Dooku’s power.

AotC novel does not say he replenished himself.

^ hmm...strange, I recall reading it for 100%

EDIT: ah, ok. I confused it with RotS novel. Sorry.
Still, I don't see how beating padawan Anakin and tolling AotC Kenobi "exhausted" Dooku.
If anything, it was a good warm-up for the Count. In contrast, poor Yoda had to go into battle without such an aid 🙂

Dooku stabbed ahead and slashed out suddenly, intercepting not Anakin's green blade, but the Padawan's arm, at the elbow. Half of Anakin's arm flew to the side, his hand still gripping the lightsaber.

Anakin dropped to the ground, grabbing his severed arm in agony.

Dooku gave another of his resigned shrugs. "And so it ends," he said for the second time.

Even as he spoke, though, the great hangar doors of the tower slid open, smoke from the battle outside pouring in. And through that smoke came a diminutive figure, but one seeming taller than all of them at that moment.

"Master Yoda," Dooku breathed.

"Count Dooku," said Yoda.

Dooku's eyes widened and he stepped back, turning to face Yoda directly. He brought his lightsaber up to his face, shut down the blade, then snapped it to the side in formal salute. "You have interfered with our plans for the last time."

A wave of Dooku's free hand sent a piece of machinery flying at the diminutive Jedi Master, seeming as if it would surely crush him.

^ Yeah, no mention of Dooku being exhausted there.

Also: How the notion of Dooku being exhausted after fighting padawan Anakin and AotC Kenobi helps the argument that he will not tire out against Mace, whose stamina is impressive?

Fighting Yoda to almost a stalemate while being exhausted would've been even more impressive.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
AotC novel states that Dooku replenished his Force reserves at whim just after Anakin/Obi-Wan fight. He was as good as new. 🙂

So really it was just peak Anakin who tired him down. Just because Peak Anakin did doesn't mean Mace will. Anakin's biggest strength was his raw power.

Also replenishing force reserves at whim just helps the case for Dooku's stamina.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Quote/source?

I recall Yoda telling Dooku in Dark Rendezvous: “I don’t want to harm you” (loose paraphrase). My memory can be rusty though…

Source Dark Rendezvous. My own loose paraphrasing: "Even here in this dark place love you enough to kill you I do."

Even though he's saying he loves Dooku, it's that same love that makes him willing to kill Dooku to free him of the dark side.

The fact that he says "Even here" is a clear implication that he was willing to do the same on Geonosis.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Well, Yoda never actually attacked Dooku in the Force. He only pushed aside Dooku’s Force attacks and redirected Dooku’s own lightning at him. I doubt it was so exhausting for the good Count. It was rather their saber fight that tired Dooku.

Yes but Dooku was going all out with his force attacks. Which was after 2 other fights. Doesn't matter that those 2 were not great challenges for him (although Padawan Anakin is noted to be pushing him). They were still fights. Yoda came to the fight completely fresh.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Sure he will. It’s not simply only a matter of Mace’s and Dooku’s Force reserves. Mace will also tap into Dooku’s own darkness.

Well that didn't help Sora Bulq reach Dooku's level of power. So clearly the power comes from Mace himself. He will simply use Dooku's darkness to perform at his own peak level.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
^ Yeah, no mention of Dooku being exhausted there.

Also: How the notion of Dooku being exhausted after fighting padawan Anakin and AotC Kenobi helps the argument that he will not tire out against Mace, whose stamina is impressive?

Funny thing is it's YODA who is described as being "Exhausted" after their fight. AOTC Novel states the "Exhausted Yoda" walks to Obi-Wan and Anakin after the fight.

Dooku is a peer to Yoda and Windu in sabers. Dooku has a recorded win against Windu in sparring, Windu doesn't. There is nothing to suggest Dooku isn't at least his equal. Dooku also held off Yoda for an impressive time considering Yoda managed to disarm Sidious fairly early into their duel.

I am not against the idea that Dooku might be equal to Windu. I just pointed out that it is not a fact.

Yoda managed to disarm Sidious under favorable circumstances, Sidious nearly fell from platform and dropped his lightsaber. I don't see Yoda disarming Sidious on even ground.

In any case I said that the main factor is stamina, not skill. Dooku ran away from Yoda not because of inferior skill, he did that because he started getting tired.
From novel
"It went on and on for many moments, but eventually Dooku's flurry began to slow, and the Count, recognizing the Futility of this attempt to overwhelm, stepped back fast".
From script:
"For the first part of the contest, he parries every cut and thrust that Dooku aims. Nothing the great swordsman tries gets through. His energy drains. His strokes become feebler, slower".

If this example doesn't convince you, here is another example of how stamina matters, when two combatants have more or less equal skill:
He had found a fresh reserve of strength during his meditation, and now he was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied. With quick, hard strokes of his lightsaber, he bored into his adversary, deliberately engaging in close-quarters combat, refusing to let the other bring his double-bladed weapon to bear. He drove Darth Maul backward about the rim of the overhang, keeping the Sith Lord constantly on the defensive, pressing in on him steadily. Qui-Gon Jinn might no longer be young, but he was still powerful. Darth Maul's ragged face took on a frenzied look, and the glitter of his strange eyes brightened with uncertainty.

Good, Master, Obi-Wan thought, urging him on voicelessly, anticipating Qui-Gon's sword strokes as if they were his own.

Then Darth Maul back-flipped across the melting pit, giving himself some space in which to recover, gaining just enough time to assume a new battle stance. Qui-Gon was on him in an instant, covering the distance separating them in a rush, hammering into the Sith Lord anew. But he was beginning to weary now from carrying the battle alone. His strokes were not so vigorous as before his face bathed with sweat and taut with fatigue.

Slowly, Darth Maul began to edge his way back into the fight, becoming the aggressor once more.

In both cases Yoda did not mean to kill Dooku.

He actually did:
Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through
...
Just as he was about to launch a counter, though, Yoda was gone, leaping high and turning a somersault to land right behind Dooku, in perfect balance, striking hard.
Dooku reversed his grip and stabbed out behind him, intercepting the blow
.

If Yoda held back, this naration simply wouldn't make any sence. On top of that, if one character holds back, another doesn't have hard time defending like Dooku did.

Regardless, even if Yoda didn't intend to kill, it doesn't mean that his combat prowess was lower. Disarming and crippling techniques are more effective than killing ones.

As Arhael pointed out astutely, Dooku will most certainly tire out more quickly than Windu, given that Windu will be using both his and Dooku’s power.

Thanks for supporting my point but I think it's better to keep Vaapad out of equation as it is rather contradictive subject. Keep in mind that Vaapad is a physical combat style and mental state, while using actual power of opponent is a Force application, which can be either Force absorb or drain, Vaapad is neither.

Funny thing is it's YODA who is described as being "Exhausted" after their fight. AOTC Novel states the "Exhausted Yoda" walks to Obi-Wan and Anakin after the fight.

Lol. Yoda wasted his reserves on that huge pillar. 😄

Originally posted by Arhael

Lol. Yoda wasted his reserves on that huge pillar. 😄

Could be that. But if it was then Dooku force owning Obi-Wan then throwing a platform on him must have contributed to him getting tired.

Still Dooku had 2 fights before Yoda so he should get tired first. So both these evidences of him getting tired have a context to them. The ROTS script actually has Obi-Wan getting tired against Dooku which is kind of weird as he only fights him for a few seconds and with help even.

Also I don't take the exact nature of the Yoda-Dooku Saber fight from the novel and script, as it's clear that by the time that fight made it to the screen Lucas altered it to show a greater level of parity than originally intended.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
All this is bases off of the thought that Sidious is superior to Dooku in lightsaber combat which I've yet to see proof of.

How about the fact that Sidious has better saber feats than Dooku. When has Dooku ever cut down jedi swordsmasters in a matter of seconds?

Please tell me how Sidious is not superior to Dooku. And please do not bring up Dooku's two fights with Yoda if you're going to ignore the context of those duels.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Fighting Yoda to almost a stalemate while being exhausted would've been even more impressive.

Exhausted?

If fighting AOTC Kenobi and Anakin was enough to exhaust him, then how do you assume that he is a peer to someone who can slaughter masters in seconds, and casually walk all over Maul and Savage while hardly even trying?

Also, I am curious why you think that just because Dooku held his own against Yoda for about 30 seconds, means that he stalemated him. The AOTC novel makes it clear that Yoda was the superior fighter, which is why Dooku was forced to flee. But if you want to go by how it looked to you in the movie, then you also should take under consideration that Yoda may have likely been pulling his punches. Hell, their fight in the movie looked more even then how their fight is depicted in DR, despite Dooku having his powers boosted by the dark side nexus on Vjun during DR, which would either mean that Dooku without a boost > Dooku with a boost, or Yoda was holding back in AOTC. Somehow the latter makes more sense, especially since there is evidents to support it. Just because Yoda can't blitz someone like Dooku, and Dooku is capable of holding Yoda off for a bit, does not mean he is equal to Yoda in saber combat, it just means he is good enough to provide a decent challenge, unlike most.

Dooku might rival Sidious and Yoda in sheer technical skill, but both Yoda's and Sidious's force enhanced physicality (speed, strength, etc.) is what separates them from Dooku.

Originally posted by Arhael
I am not against the idea that Dooku might be equal to Windu. I just pointed out that it is not a fact.

Yoda managed to disarm Sidious under favorable circumstances, Sidious nearly fell from platform and dropped his lightsaber. I don't see Yoda disarming Sidious on even ground.

What are you talking about? It was on even ground. Sidious nearly fell from the platform because Yoda drove him back.

"YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts."

There would have been no edge to almost go over had they fought on even ground. Sidious barely had any room to move around, whereas Yoda did, because of his small size.

Mace wins... is this settled now?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
There would have been no edge to almost go over had they fought on even ground. Sidious barely had any room to move around, whereas Yoda did, because of his small size.

If it was so then Sidious would have known, it was him who chose to jump up on the pod.