ROTS Mace Windu Vs AOTC/ROTS Count Dooku

Agree that Dooku got tired quicker because of Force handling Kenobi.

Agree that before fighting Yoda Dooku spent energy on Anakin and Kenobi and even more on lightning and collapsing rocks.

Agree that info from script and novel cannot be taken for granted. In there Yoda at first passively defends and then on opposite fully forced Dooku on the defensive, while in film they are perfectly even whole fight. But that means that if Dooku can fight Yoda on equal terms, getting tired is the only possible reason for running away. And in their second fight Dooku fought longer and more offensively, yet, he still ran away, which means that even on darkside nexus Yoda could outlast him.

Windu is not as powerful as Yoda either, so you have a point. Apparently it is not going to be as easy to prove that Windu's stamina is better than Dooku's.

In fight with Sidious Windu was on the defensive whole time (which conserves energy) and didn't use Force attacks, so it doesn't prove that his stamina is better than Dooku's.

Perhaps I need to check how exactly Windu's fights with Kar Vastor went to make better evaluation of his Force reserves.

How about the fact that Sidious has better saber feats than Dooku. When has Dooku ever cut down jedi swordsmasters in a matter of seconds?

Please tell me how Sidious is not superior to Dooku. And please do not bring up Dooku's two fights with Yoda if you're going to ignore the context of those duels.

Indeed, no need to ignore context of fights with Yoda. Where he states that he is willing to kill Dooku despite his love for him. Last time I checked intention to kill means a lot to you. 😉
And where he states that Dooku would have been on parr with Windu on even ground. 😄

What are you talking about? It was on even ground. Sidious nearly fell from the platform because Yoda drove him back.

Also, Yoda driving back Sidious at some point during the fight doesn't mean that he is above Sidious, even if we ignore that it was on uneven platform. It is normal for one or another combatant to gain temporary advantage even if they are perfectly even.

As example look at Marek vs Vader fight:

The intensity of Darth Vader's attack redoubled. "I have no father."

The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near, but he felt no pain. He, on the other hand, had definitely struck a nerve.
...
Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith lightning. That broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath.
...
With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. "You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you." A strip of Darth Vader's cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. "You are his creature just as I was yours-but you've never had the strength to rebel. That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster and if I have my way I'll make sure you don't, either."

Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.

As you see at one point it is Marek barely surviving and using lightning to "stand and catch his breath". And at other - on opposite he "forced Darth Vader onto his back foot" and continued pressing advantage preventing Vader to regain balance by "keeping him on the back foot".

Damn, do I really agree With S66 on something? 😄

Mace wins... can we stop the madness now. Sure, Dooku will put up a very good fight, but in the end, Mace will win and win convincingly.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
How about the fact that Sidious has better saber feats than Dooku. When has Dooku ever cut down jedi swordsmasters in a matter of seconds?

Please tell me how Sidious is not superior to Dooku. And please do not bring up Dooku's two fights with Yoda if you're going to ignore the context of those duels.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Exhausted?

If fighting AOTC Kenobi and Anakin was enough to exhaust him, then how do you assume that he is a peer to someone who can slaughter masters in seconds, and casually walk all over Maul and Savage while hardly even trying?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, I am curious why you think that just because Dooku held his own against Yoda for about 30 seconds, means that he stalemated him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The AOTC novel makes it clear that Yoda was the superior fighter, which is why Dooku was forced to flee.

I never implied otherwise.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
But if you want to go by how it looked to you in the movie, then you also should take under consideration that Yoda may have likely been pulling his punches. Hell, their fight in the movie looked more even then how their fight is depicted in DR, despite Dooku having his powers boosted by the dark side nexus on Vjun during DR, which would either mean that Dooku without a boost > Dooku with a boost, or Yoda was holding back in AOTC.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Somehow the latter makes more sense, especially since there is evidents to support it. Just because Yoda can't blitz someone like Dooku, and Dooku is capable of holding Yoda off for a bit, does not mean he is equal to Yoda in saber combat, it just means he is good enough to provide a decent challenge, unlike most.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Dooku might rival Sidious and Yoda in sheer technical skill, but both Yoda's and Sidious's force enhanced physicality (speed, strength, etc.) is what separates them from Dooku.

Besides, he has good strength feats, such as blocking overhand-striked by Anakin and Kenobi at the same time on RotS or manhandling Grievous in the OCW.

Originally posted by Arhael
Right, I guess Sidious has better saber feats than anyone. For instance I can't remember Windu, Yoda and Luke ever cutting down three celebrated Sith in seconds. 😆.

Yes, because fighting evenly with or defeating someone who can blitz masters in seconds, is not a comparable feat, right?

facepalm*facepalm*facepalm*

Also, if you're trying to use Windu as a way to compare Dooku to Sidious, then just remember: Windu had to be fully submerged in vaapad in order to match Sidious, which required a little bit of time. Such time was not required during his duel with Dooku; him and Dooku were pretty much equals from the beginning of their duel, whereas during the beginning of his duel with Sidious, he lost his friends and was forced back into the chancellor's office.

Originally posted by Arhael
Indeed, no need to ignore context of fights with Yoda. Where he states that he is willing to kill Dooku despite his love for him.

He said that in DR. I was talking about their duel in AOTC.

Originally posted by Arhael
Last time I checked intention to kill means a lot to you. 😉

And it does to you too, but you just like to argue for the sake of it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
But if you want to go by how it looked to you in the movie, then you also should take under consideration that Yoda may have likely been pulling his punches. Hell, their fight in the movie looked more even then how their fight is depicted in DR, despite Dooku having his powers boosted by the dark side nexus on Vjun during DR, which would either mean that Dooku without a boost > Dooku with a boost, or Yoda was holding back in AOTC.

Firstly if there's an inconsistency between G-Canon and C-Canon then it's G-Canon that takes priority.

Secondly Dooku did not look better in AOTC than he did on Vjun. He was holding his own both times and the only clue to Yoda's superiority both times was Dooku fleeing.

So if anything should be in question here it's the enhancement Dooku gained on Vjun.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

He said that in DR. I was talking about their duel in AOTC.

In DR he said "Even here," which is essentially confirming that he was always willing to kill him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Firstly if there's an inconsistency between G-Canon and C-Canon then it's G-Canon that takes priority.

Secondly Dooku did not look better in AOTC than he did on Vjun. He was holding his own both times and the only clue to Yoda's superiority both times was Dooku fleeing.

So if anything should be in question here it's the enhancement Dooku gained on Vjun.

ok

😆

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In DR he said "Even here," which is essentially confirming that he was always willing to kill him.

Your inability to grasp context is never surprising. The only thing Yoda was confirming was that, despite the strong dark side nexus (negative energy) that filled the air on Vjun, he still had love for Dooku. As in: even there, the dark side had no affect on him. That quote had nothing to do with his previous fight with Dooku, as it would have made sense even if they had no previous fight.

Certainly, if Yoda was actually trying to kill Dooku, he wouldn't have neglected to use the force offensively.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
ok

😆

Your inability to grasp context is never surprising. The only thing Yoda was confirming was that, despite the strong dark side nexus (negative energy) that filled the air on Vjun, he still had love for Dooku. As in: even there, the dark side had no affect on him. That quote had nothing to do with his previous fight with Dooku, as it would have made sense even if they had no previous fight.

Certainly, if Yoda was actually trying to kill Dooku, he wouldn't have neglected to use the force offensively.

Yoda should have been willing to kill him on Vjun since its, you know, a war.

Mace wins,this duel....And Vaapad is the reason of this win.you can't take it out of the equation.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
ok

😆

Notice how your the only one laughing.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Your inability to grasp context is never surprising. The only thing Yoda was confirming was that, despite the strong dark side nexus (negative energy) that filled the air on Vjun, he still had love for Dooku. As in: even there, the dark side had no affect on him. That quote had nothing to do with his previous fight with Dooku, as it would have made sense even if they had no previous fight.

Certainly, if Yoda was actually trying to kill Dooku, he wouldn't have neglected to use the force offensively.

Lol @ my "inability to grasp context." Coming from a guy who constantly makes up his own context to suit his argument.

The context was simple, plain and clear. Yoda says "EVEN HERE" in this dark place he loves Dooku enough to kill him.

This is Yoda stating clearly that he was always willing to kill him. The reason being? Because he loves his former padawan and Yoda knows full well that "Once you step down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny."

So as far as Yoda's concerned that's the merciful thing to do.

As for not using the Force offensively, let's not forget in the first half of the Force fight Yoda was still trying to determine if Dooku was a Darksider. Hence the line "Powerful you have become Dooku. The Dark Side I sense in you."

After that Dooku is relentless with FL and Yoda's busy defending himself but still manages to shoot him offensively once.

Your argument would make more sense if Yoda was on the defense the whole Saber fight as well. But he clearly wasn't. He was on the offensive almost the entire Saber fight.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yes, because fighting evenly with or defeating someone who can blitz masters in seconds, is not a comparable feat, right?

facepalm*facepalm*facepalm*

Also, if you're trying to use Windu as a way to compare Dooku to Sidious, then just remember: Windu had to be fully submerged in vaapad in order to match Sidious, which required a little bit of time. Such time was not required during his duel with Dooku; him and Dooku were pretty much equals from the beginning of their duel, whereas during the beginning of his duel with Sidious, he lost his friends and was forced back into the chancellor's office.

Also, don't forget that Windu fought Magnaguards before engaging with Dooku, which means he had enough time to submerge in Vaapad. :banana:

He said that in DR. I was talking about their duel in AOTC.

This:
"With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance. Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through."

This quote states that Yoda's bladework was so mighty that it "outshone" even both Anakin's lightsabers. That simply does not sound like holding back AT ALL. Moreover, the same quote states that, if Dooku did not "brilliantly" block those attacks, "Yoda's strikes would have driven right through". Lethal intent of Yoda's attacks is rather obvious.

And this:
"Yoda was gone, leaping high and turning a somersault to land right behind Dooku, in perfect balance, striking hard.

Dooku reversed his grip and stabbed out behind him, intercepting the blow."

Yoda jumped right behind Dooku and attacked. Doesn't sound like pulling punches or holding back. And your assumption that he held back in any way is farther destroyed by the fact that he was "striking hard" even, when Dooku wasn't facing him.

And it does to you too, but you just like to argue for the sake of it.

Your inability to grasp context is never surprising. The only thing Yoda was confirming was that, despite the strong dark side nexus (negative energy) that filled the air on Vjun, he still had love for Dooku. As in: even there, the dark side had no affect on him. That quote had nothing to do with his previous fight with Dooku, as it would have made sense even if they had no previous fight.

"And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me... love you enough to destroy you I do."

Love you enough to let go. Hate you enough to kill. Hungry enough to steal. Meaning is rather obvious. "Even here" implies that Yoda had enough love to destroy Dooku even in other places. And the only other place of their encounter was Geonosis.

Certainly, if Yoda was actually trying to kill Dooku, he wouldn't have neglected to use the force offensively.

To me DR was personal to Yoda just as bringing Depa back alive was personal to Mace.
Yoda was willing to kill Dooku,Mace was not willing to kill Depa.

It was best that Yoda went to confront Dooku than Mace.
Not that Mace was gonna win or lose but the factor of Vjun being a dark side nexus,
The darkness of the jungle is one thing but A dark side nexus is another.

How Mace and Vaapad would do. Is hard to say honestly,meditate and research on this I will.
until I find proof return I will and debate.

Dark Rendezvous sounds like a good read. I 'll buy this book next and get back to yall on what I think.
everything on this thread has been covered by either KT or Arhael or the other guys.
I don't have much to say,I agree with some of everybodys' views but

In an all out Dooku will tire and retreat before Mace can deliver the death blow.
sparring is sparring its not a real fight.
Mace humbles himself to Yoda and Dooku.
They had his respect.

Now until Yoda and Mace sever their attachment to Dooku, they will never be able to kill Dooku.
How did Yoda react when he heard Anakin killed Count Dooku?
If Anakin overpowers Dooku with Djem So,
What makes you think Mace couldn't do the same with Vaapad?

Dooku's TK?
Dooku's Force Lightning it won't help him, tire him out quickly,and slow Mace down
but won't stop him.
If Dooku's Makashi can match Djem So, and Vaapad in power and in stamina
you got a match.Since it has been proven that Makashi can't match Djem So, and Vaapad in that field then the win goes to Mace just as the win went to Anakin.

Even with all that hype of Dooku's TK,Mastery of Makashi,and Force lightning,
Anakin still beat Dooku and just like Anakin, Mace can beat Dooku....

Originally posted by Arhael
Of course it is as is fighting evenly with someone who can defeat the one who can blitz masters is seconds. Dooku fought Yoda twice and even Windu+Kenobi, these are nothing less than comparable feats.

Dooku never fought evenly with Sidious though, so what is your point? He never even fought evenly with Yoda, despite having his powers amped on Vjun.

And don't bring up the time he fought Windu and Kenobi. Evidently Dooku had some help during that encounter, and was also outmatched, which is why he fled, so Idk why that means anything. Furthermore, we don't even know the full context of that encounter.

Originally posted by Arhael
Also, don't forget that Windu fought Magnaguards before engaging with Dooku, which means he had enough time to submerge in Vaapad. :banana:

Magnaguards do not complete the superconductive loop of vaapad, so no he didn't. Windu was fighting at a level he had never fought in in his life when he fought Sidious.

Originally posted by Arhael
Before we continue, provide proof that Yoda held back.

There is no point in continuing anything with you. It's like arguing with someone that the sky is blue. You just hate to be wrong.

Originally posted by Arhael
You assume it that he did on first place and never provided a single evidence.

I did, but all you're doing is saying stuff like "well nuh uh 'cause Yoda can't kill Dooku with the force so he has no need to use it and the novel says Yoda was swinging hard and his blade work was better than Anakin's and Kenobi's"

But hey, you're also the one who says that the hyperbolic statement "whirlwind of destruction" means one is fighting their absolute hardest. 😆

Originally posted by Arhael
This:
"With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, [b]his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance. Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through."

This quote states that Yoda's bladework was so mighty that it "outshone" even both Anakin's lightsabers. That simply does not sound like holding back AT ALL. Moreover, the same quote states that, if Dooku did not "brilliantly" block those attacks, "Yoda's strikes would have driven right through". Lethal intent of Yoda's attacks is rather obvious.

And this:
"Yoda was gone, leaping high and turning a somersault to land right behind Dooku, in perfect balance, striking hard.

Dooku reversed his grip and stabbed out behind him, intercepting the blow."[/B]

First of all, why are you using a source which shows that Yoda was getting the best of Dooku to support your argument that they were fighting evenly? Second of all the fight is told through Dooku's perspective, I believe.

Originally posted by Arhael
No, it doesn't. Intention to kill is not needed to demonstrate top combat prowess. Windu, Kenobi and Luke explicitly demonstrated it.

I already went over this argument:

Palpatine ended three jedi masters with fatal blows, Maul ended Qui Gon with a fatal blow, Obi Wan ended Maul with a fatal blow, and I'm pretty sure dark side Anakin cut down a few jedi with fatal blows. (note: all these examples are from the movies alone.) Hmm, I wonder why they didn't just go for the wrists, ya know, since it's so much easier? Perhaps it's because it wasn't an option at the time, so they landed a strike on an opening that was available at the time. That's what you do when you're not limiting yourself.

Yes it is needed, as you would not be limiting yourself as much as you would be if you're not trying to kill. When you're not trying to kill your opponent, you're limiting yourself to certain targets only. Stop arguing against common sense.

Originally posted by Arhael
"And yet, even here on Vjun, [b]where the dark side whispers and whispers to me...love you enough to destroy you I do."[/B]

Stop trying to twist context. The quote doesn't say "even here, I'm still willing to kill you." It's not Yoda admitting that he was always willing to kill Dooku, considering that just moments before, he was telling Dooku how he does not wish to hurt him. It was Yoda admitting that even there on Vjun, where the dark side is trying to tempt him, he still loves Dooku, and that if he does kill Dooku, it will not be out of hate or anger (dark side emotions). The quote was in response to Dooku trying to get Yoda to use hate emotions by taunting Yoda saying: ""Feel me. Feel the treason. All those years of teaching me, raising me. Trusting me. And here am I, the favored son, butchering your precious Jedi, one by one. Hate me Yoda. You know you want to.".

So again, the quote had nothing to do with their previous fight; it was in response to Dooku's taunts.

Originally posted by Arhael
Certainly, if Yoda didn't try to kill Dooku, he would attempt to use Force attacks as they are far less harmful than lightsaber. In any case Force attacks would be very unlikely to succeed on Dooku.

Yoda used the force offensively during his fight with Sidious. He pushed Sidious over his desk, and almost crushed him with a redirected senate pod. Yes, the force can be used to disable your opponent, or at least gain an upperhand, especially if you're actually trying to kill them. Yoda did not attempt to throw any of the stuff that Dooku was throwing at him. The only time Yoda used the force offensively was when he redirected an attack that Dooku knew how to counter.

Why is it that you believe that when someone is trying to kill their opponent, that they can't use anything less than a killing strike? That is just silly, they don't have to limit themselves to fatal attacks only. The only time one limits himself, is when he is NOT trying to kill.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Dooku never fought evenly with Sidious though, so what is your point? He never even fought evenly with Yoda, despite having his powers amped on Vjun.

He did fight evenly with Yoda both on Geonosis and Vjun. That's just fact that Dooku held his own both times. Both times Yoda's superiority is only suggested with Dooku fleeing.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And don't bring up the time he fought Windu and Kenobi. Evidently Dooku had some help during that encounter, and was also outmatched, which is why he fled, so Idk why that means anything. Furthermore, we don't even know the full context of that encounter.

Well you love bringing up DR fight which makes it clear Mace and Dooku are peers in Sabers.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
But hey, you're also the one who says that the hyperbolic statement "whirlwind of destruction" means one is fighting their absolute hardest. 😆

Well it's not exactly the sort of description you give to someone whose holding back. Especially not to the extent you make out.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
First of all, why are you using a source which shows that Yoda was getting the best of Dooku to support your argument that they were fighting evenly?

Perhaps because even THAT source makes it clear Yoda wasn't holding back when it came to the Saber fight.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I already went over this argument:

Yes it is needed, as you would not be limiting yourself as much as you would be if you're not trying to kill. When you're not trying to kill your opponent, you're limiting yourself to certain targets only. Stop arguing against common sense.

No Arhael's point stands much stronger on this one.

Maul bested Qui-Gon with a physical attack. If he didn't wish to kill him he could have easily chopped an arm off instead.

Obi-Wan bested Maul with a surprise attack. He could have easily went for an arm instead but decided to do one seriously sick mutilation.

Point is going for the kill does not give a huge advantage over someone who is not going for the kill (as long as they are willing to chop shit off). And you've shown Zero evidence that it does.

On the other hand not wanting to harm at all does put one at a serious disadvantage as shown with the Obi-Wan and Anakin vs Brainwashed Ashoka fight on Mortis.

Yoda and Dooku's fight on Vjun (Yoda: DR)

"Do something for you?" His eyes flicked to Yoda and the lightsaber at the Jedi Master's belt. "Of course I'll do something for you."

With a flick of his hand, he picked up the heavyset woman with the Force and hurled her through the window casement. Yoda's eyes went wide with shock.

"You might want to help her," Dooku said.

With a bound, Yoda was at the casement. Whirry was windmilling down through the black air, screaming and tumbling toward the flagstones. Narrowing his eyes, Yoda reached out through the Force and caught her not three meters from the ground. Instantly he was in the air himself, spinning away from Dooku's vicious attack before he was even consciously aware it was coming. The blinding scarlet blur of Dooku's lightsaber split the air, slashing a burning line along Yoda's side before chopping his desk in half. Yoda whipped out his blade while trying to set Whirry gently down on the cobblestones below.

"Wish to hurt you, I do not!"

"That's odd," Dooku remarked. "I intend to enjoy killing you."

As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.

"I've hurt you!" Dooku cried.

"Many times," Yoda said. He considered his pain: let it drop. Now he had nothing but Dooku to focus on, and his lightsaber gleamed with the same fierce green light that flickered from under his heavy-lidded eyes. "But killed me you did not, when you had the chance. A mistake, that was. More than eight hundred years has Yoda survived, through dangers you could not dream."

"I know how to kill," Dooku hissed.

Yoda's eyes opened wide, like balls of green fire.

"Yes-but Yoda knows how to live!"

Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green and red: but the green burned hotter. Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.

"Yes," Dooku whispered. "Feel me. Feel the treason. All those years of teaching me, raising me. Trusting me. And here am I, the favored son, butchering your precious Jedi, one by one. Hate me Yoda. You know you want to. "

Count Dooku lashed out with his lightsaber. Yoda took a quick step back and felt the heat of the red blade as it sliced the air centimeters from his tunic. He jumped, spun, and struck at Dooku's back before he landed. Dooku turned aside at the last moment, whipping his blade across the space where Yoda was seconds earlier. Facing each other again, their blades met, clashed, froze.

"Cunning, are you," Yoda said, breathing hard.

"I've had excellent teachers," Dooku said.

Yoda dropped and rolled to the side, his lightsaber blazing, reaching for Dooku's ankles. Dooku leapt up and flipped backwards landing lightly to face Yoda squarely. On his feet again, Yoda whirled and struck at Dooku, his green blade meeting Dooku's and pushing him back. Dooku attacked with reckless abandon fueled with hatred. Their blades hummed together, hissing and sparking. Dooku brought his blade down toward the diminutive Jedi Master and Yoda parried, locking his blade against Dooku's. Yoda breathed, calming himself.

"And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me... love you enough to destroy you I do."

Pushing Dooku back yet again, blades flashed and flared stutters of light, blood red and sea green. Sweat ran in streams through Dooku's beard as he countered Yoda's every move, and his lips were white. Holobattles raged around them as the consoles showed Obi-Wan and Anakin clashing with wave after wave of battle droids. Dooku shot a quick glance at the red button on his desk and, with a Force push, he punched it in. Yoda cocked his head.

"A choice made, have you, Count?"

"I notice I am no longer your apprentice," Dooku said between breaths. "There was always a chance you could overpower me, of course."

Yoda attacked: Dooku parried.

"So I put a missile in high orbit, slaved to this location. It's falling now. Gathering speed."

Dooku stepped warily back to the open window casement.

"Can you feel it dropping? A thorn, a needle, an arrow. Faster all the time." He paused to get his breath. "Obi-Wan and your precious Skywalker and your little Padawans will be wiped out when the missile hits. So what you need to decide is, what means more to you, Master Yoda? Saving their lives-or taking mine?"

And with that he leapt backward, out the window. Yoda bounded after him. In the dark Vjun air it was all he could do not to leap after Dooku, to fall on him like a green thunderbolt and annihilate him utterly.... But already he could feel the missile, too, dropping in a red scream through the atmosphere, two hundred armored kilos of explosive aimed for Chateau Malreaux.

This duel does not portray Dooku and Yoda as equals in saber combat. Yoda was the better swordsman. Not only was Dooku being forced back, but he was struggling considerably just to block Yoda's attacks. He put up a good fight no doubt, but he was not fighting "evenly" with Yoda. Dooku was outmatched and forced to flee despite the fact that he had his powers augmented by the dark side nexus on Vjun.

And for anyone who wants to question Dooku's special enhancement from the dark side nexus, there are quotes throughout the novel about how strong the dark side was on the planet. Here are a few:

"The planet was heavy with the dark side, which made the study of the Sith ways easier."

"Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light."

There are more quotes. One in particular that comes to mind was when it said something about the dark side on Vjun being so strong that it seemed as if it were going to burst into flames, but I can't find that quote (I'll look more thoroughly later, maybe). Anyways, the implication is clear: the dark side was very strong on Vjun, and Dooku benefited from it considerably.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yoda and Dooku's fight on Vjun (Yoda: DR)

"Do something for you?" His eyes flicked to Yoda and the lightsaber at the Jedi Master's belt. "Of course I'll do something for you."

With a flick of his hand, he picked up the heavyset woman with the Force and hurled her through the window casement. Yoda's eyes went wide with shock.

"You might want to help her," Dooku said.

With a bound, Yoda was at the casement. Whirry was windmilling down through the black air, screaming and tumbling toward the flagstones. Narrowing his eyes, Yoda reached out through the Force and caught her not three meters from the ground. Instantly he was in the air himself, spinning away from Dooku's vicious attack before he was even consciously aware it was coming. The blinding scarlet blur of Dooku's lightsaber split the air, slashing a burning line along Yoda's side before chopping his desk in half. Yoda whipped out his blade while trying to set Whirry gently down on the cobblestones below.

"Wish to hurt you, I do not!"

"That's odd," Dooku remarked. "I intend to enjoy killing you."

As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.

"I've hurt you!" Dooku cried.

"Many times," Yoda said. He considered his pain: let it drop. Now he had nothing but Dooku to focus on, and his lightsaber gleamed with the same fierce green light that flickered from under his heavy-lidded eyes. "But killed me you did not, when you had the chance. A mistake, that was. More than eight hundred years has Yoda survived, through dangers you could not dream."

"I know how to kill," Dooku hissed.

Yoda's eyes opened wide, like balls of green fire.

"Yes-but Yoda knows how to live!"

Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green and red: but the green burned hotter. [b]Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.

"Yes," Dooku whispered. "Feel me. Feel the treason. All those years of teaching me, raising me. Trusting me. And here am I, the favored son, butchering your precious Jedi, one by one. Hate me Yoda. You know you want to. "

Count Dooku lashed out with his lightsaber. Yoda took a quick step back and felt the heat of the red blade as it sliced the air centimeters from his tunic. He jumped, spun, and struck at Dooku's back before he landed. Dooku turned aside at the last moment, whipping his blade across the space where Yoda was seconds earlier. Facing each other again, their blades met, clashed, froze.

"Cunning, are you," Yoda said, breathing hard.

"I've had excellent teachers," Dooku said.

Yoda dropped and rolled to the side, his lightsaber blazing, reaching for Dooku's ankles. Dooku leapt up and flipped backwards landing lightly to face Yoda squarely. On his feet again, Yoda whirled and struck at Dooku, his green blade meeting Dooku's and pushing him back. Dooku attacked with reckless abandon fueled with hatred. Their blades hummed together, hissing and sparking. Dooku brought his blade down toward the diminutive Jedi Master and Yoda parried, locking his blade against Dooku's. Yoda breathed, calming himself.

"And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me... love you enough to destroy you I do."

Pushing Dooku back yet again, blades flashed and flared stutters of light, blood red and sea green. Sweat ran in streams through Dooku's beard as he countered Yoda's every move, and his lips were white. Holobattles raged around them as the consoles showed Obi-Wan and Anakin clashing with wave after wave of battle droids. Dooku shot a quick glance at the red button on his desk and, with a Force push, he punched it in. Yoda cocked his head.

"A choice made, have you, Count?"

"I notice I am no longer your apprentice," Dooku said between breaths. "There was always a chance you could overpower me, of course."

Yoda attacked: Dooku parried.

"So I put a missile in high orbit, slaved to this location. It's falling now. Gathering speed."

Dooku stepped warily back to the open window casement.

"Can you feel it dropping? A thorn, a needle, an arrow. Faster all the time." He paused to get his breath. "Obi-Wan and your precious Skywalker and your little Padawans will be wiped out when the missile hits. So what you need to decide is, what means more to you, Master Yoda? Saving their lives-or taking mine?"

And with that he leapt backward, out the window. Yoda bounded after him. In the dark Vjun air it was all he could do not to leap after Dooku, to fall on him like a green thunderbolt and annihilate him utterly.... But already he could feel the missile, too, dropping in a red scream through the atmosphere, two hundred armored kilos of explosive aimed for Chateau Malreaux.

This duel does not portray Dooku and Yoda as equals in saber combat. Yoda was the better swordsman. Not only was Dooku being forced back, but he was struggling considerably just to block Yoda's attacks. He put up a good fight no doubt, but he was not fighting "evenly" with Yoda. Dooku was outmatched and forced to flee despite the fact that he had his powers augmented by the dark side nexus on Vjun.

And for anyone who wants to question Dooku's special enhancement from the dark side nexus, there are quotes throughout the novel about how strong the dark side was on the planet. Here are a few:

"The planet was heavy with the dark side, which made the study of the Sith ways easier."

"Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light."

There are more quotes. One in particular that comes to mind was when it said something about the dark side on Vjun being so strong that it seemed as if it were going to burst into flames, but I can't find that quote (I'll look more thoroughly later, maybe). Anyways, the implication is clear: the dark side was very strong on Vjun, and Dooku benefited from it considerably. [/B]

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yoda and Dooku's fight on Vjun (Yoda: DR)

"Do something for you?" His eyes flicked to Yoda and the lightsaber at the Jedi Master's belt. "Of course I'll do something for you."

With a flick of his hand, he picked up the heavyset woman with the Force and hurled her through the window casement. Yoda's eyes went wide with shock.

"You might want to help her," Dooku said.

With a bound, Yoda was at the casement. Whirry was windmilling down through the black air, screaming and tumbling toward the flagstones. Narrowing his eyes, Yoda reached out through the Force and caught her not three meters from the ground. Instantly he was in the air himself, spinning away from Dooku's vicious attack before he was even consciously aware it was coming. The blinding scarlet blur of Dooku's lightsaber split the air, slashing a burning line along Yoda's side before chopping his desk in half. Yoda whipped out his blade while trying to set Whirry gently down on the cobblestones below.

"Wish to hurt you, I do not!"

"That's odd," Dooku remarked. "I intend to enjoy killing you."

As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.

"I've hurt you!" Dooku cried.

"Many times," Yoda said. He considered his pain: let it drop. Now he had nothing but Dooku to focus on, and his lightsaber gleamed with the same fierce green light that flickered from under his heavy-lidded eyes. "But killed me you did not, when you had the chance. A mistake, that was. More than eight hundred years has Yoda survived, through dangers you could not dream."

"I know how to kill," Dooku hissed.

Yoda's eyes opened wide, like balls of green fire.

"Yes-but Yoda knows how to live!"

Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green and red: but the green burned hotter. Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.

"Yes," Dooku whispered. "Feel me. Feel the treason. All those years of teaching me, raising me. Trusting me. And here am I, the favored son, butchering your precious Jedi, one by one. Hate me Yoda. You know you want to. "

Count Dooku lashed out with his lightsaber. Yoda took a quick step back and felt the heat of the red blade as it sliced the air centimeters from his tunic. He jumped, spun, and struck at Dooku's back before he landed. Dooku turned aside at the last moment, whipping his blade across the space where Yoda was seconds earlier. Facing each other again, their blades met, clashed, froze.

"Cunning, are you," Yoda said, breathing hard.

"I've had excellent teachers," Dooku said.

Yoda dropped and rolled to the side, his lightsaber blazing, reaching for Dooku's ankles. Dooku leapt up and flipped backwards landing lightly to face Yoda squarely. On his feet again, Yoda whirled and struck at Dooku, his green blade meeting Dooku's and pushing him back. Dooku attacked with reckless abandon fueled with hatred. Their blades hummed together, hissing and sparking. Dooku brought his blade down toward the diminutive Jedi Master and Yoda parried, locking his blade against Dooku's. Yoda breathed, calming himself.

"And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me... love you enough to destroy you I do."

Pushing Dooku back yet again, blades flashed and flared stutters of light, blood red and sea green. Sweat ran in streams through Dooku's beard as he countered Yoda's every move, and his lips were white. Holobattles raged around them as the consoles showed Obi-Wan and Anakin clashing with wave after wave of battle droids. Dooku shot a quick glance at the red button on his desk and, with a Force push, he punched it in. Yoda cocked his head.

"A choice made, have you, Count?"

"I notice I am no longer your apprentice," Dooku said between breaths. "There was always a chance you could overpower me, of course."

Yoda attacked: Dooku parried.

"So I put a missile in high orbit, slaved to this location. It's falling now. Gathering speed."

Dooku stepped warily back to the open window casement.

"Can you feel it dropping? A thorn, a needle, an arrow. Faster all the time." He paused to get his breath. "Obi-Wan and your precious Skywalker and your little Padawans will be wiped out when the missile hits. So what you need to decide is, what means more to you, Master Yoda? Saving their lives-or taking mine?"

And with that he leapt backward, out the window. Yoda bounded after him. In the dark Vjun air it was all he could do not to leap after Dooku, to fall on him like a green thunderbolt and annihilate him utterly.... But already he could feel the missile, too, dropping in a red scream through the atmosphere, two hundred armored kilos of explosive aimed for Chateau Malreaux.

I've underlined ALL the relevant parts not being biased. Yes Dooku was "sweating", but Yoda was actually cut and was also specifically noted to be breathing hard.

If giving ground "slowly, slowly" means he's losing then I guess Mace was getting his ass kicked by Sidious for most the fight. And Dooku was also getting his ass kicked by Skywalker in "Crisis on Naboo."

If someone's giving a lot of ground then I would say it's probably because they are inferior, but giving ground slowly hardly means anything.

I've also underlined how the Dark air on Vjun was making Yoda more viscous than usual and how it's hinted that Dooku may have also held back against going for the Kill against Yoda. And yet Yoda still outright stated he will kill Dooku.

At one point in the novel Sidious even accuses Dooku of still having love for Yoda.

So this holding back stuff goes both ways. Sort of like with Anakin vs Obi-Wan.

But as far as the actual fight went Dooku and Yoda were both fighting pretty evenly and both clearly struggling. Being pushed back occassionally and/or slowly hardly means a thing.

The main evidence of Yoda's superiority both times was Dooku fleeing.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

"Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light."

This is the only quote that seems to suggest Dooku can fight better on Vjun and yet the same quote puts Dooku and Mace as peers, and that's just in Sabers. Most people would argue as Dooku having the edge in the Force, which would overall put Dooku >/= Mace.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I've underlined ALL the relevant parts not being biased. Yes Dooku was "sweating", but Yoda was actually cut and was also specifically noted to be breathing hard.

If giving ground "slowly, slowly" means he's losing then I guess Mace was getting his ass kicked by Sidious for most the fight. And Dooku was also getting his ass kicked by Skywalker in "Crisis on Naboo."

If someone's giving a lot of ground then I would say it's probably because they are inferior, but giving ground slowly hardly means anything.

I've also underlined how the Dark air on Vjun was making Yoda more viscous than usual and how it's hinted that Dooku may have also held back against going for the Kill against Yoda. And yet Yoda still outright stated he will kill Dooku.

At one point in the novel Sidious even accuses Dooku of still having love for Yoda.

So this holding back stuff goes both ways. Sort of like with Anakin vs Obi-Wan.

But as far as the actual fight went Dooku and Yoda were both fighting pretty evenly and both clearly struggling. Being pushed back occassionally and/or slowly hardly means a thing.

The main evidence of Yoda's superiority both times was Dooku fleeing.

This is the only quote that seems to suggest Dooku can fight better on Vjun and yet the same quote puts Dooku and Mace as peers, and that's just in Sabers. Most people would argue as Dooku having the edge in the Force, which would overall put Dooku >/= Mace.

I agree, but at the same time Dooku scoring a blow on Yoda was due to Yoda being distracted. So a wounded Yoda>/=Nexus Dooku.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I agree, but at the same time Dooku scoring a blow on Yoda was due to Yoda being distracted. So a wounded Yoda>/=Nexus Dooku.