ROTS Mace Windu Vs AOTC/ROTS Count Dooku

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I agree, but at the same time Dooku scoring a blow on Yoda was due to Yoda being distracted. So a wounded Yoda>/=Nexus Dooku.

Well his performance didn't seem to be effected so he probably wasn't actually injured.

In fact Yoda implies Dooku purposefully missed the opportunity to kill/seriously injure him.

So it really is pointless to argue that the parity shown in their Saber fights was all down to Yoda holding back.

Originally posted by Vensai
Does the nexus keep Dookus force reserves from dropping while Yoda's gradually go down?

It's not clearly stated what kind of amp Dooku got on Vjun or to what degree. Looking at there fight in AOTC I'm really questioning the nature of the Vjun Amp. I think it's been overblown on these boards.

Originally posted by Vensai
Either way, seemed like a fairly even match in the book.

👆

1/2

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Dooku never fought evenly with Sidious though, so what is your point? He never even fought evenly with Yoda, despite having his powers amped on Vjun.

And don't bring up the time he fought Windu and Kenobi. Evidently Dooku had some help during that encounter, and was also outmatched, which is why he fled, so Idk why that means anything. Furthermore, we don't even know the full context of that encounter.

I will bring up fight with Windu and Kenobi. In game it is clear that Dooku engages them alone after magnaguards are finished already. Specifics are unknown but, if Dooku was not at least on parr with Windu as Yoda claimed, he would simply run away.

Magnaguards do not complete the superconductive loop of vaapad, so no he didn't. Windu was fighting at a level he had never fought in in his life when he fought Sidious.

Energy sprayed around him, but only splatters of it grazed him here and there; the rest went back at the gunship.

And you make naked assumption that Windu never fought at the same level like against Sidious. He was blitzing Kar Vastor:
But where Vastor's speed was blinding, Mace's was invisible. Not one of those slaps connected. Before Vastor could even focus his eyes, Mace had hit him six times: two thundering hooks to his short ribs, a knee slamming hard into the same thigh he'd hit before, an elbow snapping up to the point of his chin, and two devastating palm strikes to either hinge of his jaw.

This is called Vaapad, Kar." A fierce light burned in Mace's eyes. "How many arms do you see?

Vaapad, also, works equally well against Jedi:Depa's blade was everywhere.

Mace backpedaled, parrying frantically, absorbing the shock of her attacks with bent arms and a two-handed grip. He was taller than she, with more reach and weight, and vastly more muscle in his upper body, but she drove him backward as though he were a child.

In any case you are wrong to claim that Windu didn't submerge in Vaapad fighting droids because he can fully submerge in Vaapad regardless of who he fights:
Bolts splintered off in all directions; the erratic staccato of badly aimed shots took all his concentration and skill to intercept. Mace sank deeper and deeper into the Force, surrendering more and more of his conscious thought to the instinctive whirl of Vaapad, and even so some bolts slipped past him and whanged randomly around the inside of the bunker.

He was too deep in Vaapad to make a plan, too deep even to think, but he was a Jedi Master: he didn't have to think.

As you see even deflecting blaster bolts Windu can be too deep in Vaapad even to think.

I did, but all you're doing is saying stuff like "well nuh uh 'cause Yoda can't kill Dooku with the force so he has no need to use it and the novel says Yoda was swinging hard and his blade work was better than Anakin's and Kenobi's"

Using it as factor fails miserably. Because Windu and DE Luke in final fight did not use Force offensively against Sidious.

On top of that it contradicts your claim that Sidious held back against Maul because he used TK offensively on Maul three times and added lightning to it.

As of Yoda, he Force handled Ventress with no intention to kill. Yet, he didn't try to do the same to Dooku. And it makes sence that such attempt would not succeed because Dooku has greater TK feats than Yoda.

In any case holding back on Force attacks simply does not equate to holding back in general. Sidious held back on Force attacks, when slaying masters and driving back Windu. Did he hold back? No. Similarly, Yoda held back on Force but tried to overwhelm with lightsaber instead.

But hey, you're also the one who says that the hyperbolic statement "whirlwind of destruction" means one is fighting their absolute hardest. 😆

First of all, why are you using a source which shows that Yoda was getting the best of Dooku to support your argument that they were fighting evenly? Second of all the fight is told through Dooku's perspective, I believe.

Your believe that it is Dooku's perspective doesn't make it so. It is third person narration, where every single detail is explained. And after Dooku runs away narration continues without him. In any case why would author try to decieve reader? That's just silly excuse.

I already went over this argument:

Palpatine ended three jedi masters with fatal blows, Maul ended Qui Gon with a fatal blow, Obi Wan ended Maul with a fatal blow, and I'm pretty sure dark side Anakin cut down a few jedi with fatal blows. (note: all these examples are from the movies alone.) Hmm, I wonder why they didn't just go for the wrists, ya know, since it's so much easier? Perhaps it's because it wasn't an option at the time, so they landed a strike on an opening that was available at the time. That's what you do when you're not limiting yourself.

Your "evidence", if it can be called that way, is refuted rather easily. My turn.

In AotC Dooku intended to kill Kenobi. Yet, he dealed shin damage instead of killing outright.

In film Windu did not make a single attack that could kill Sidious. It was Sidious attacking whole time right until the end, where Windu kicked him.

"It was difficult to learn how to be in a scene being backed up and on defense the whole time". - Samuel L Jackson

Windu limited himself to passive defense and executed non-lethal technique at the end only.
If we go by novel, then again he struck at lightsaber hilt in "precise ark", when easier would be to aim at wrist with no precision.

If you think that the most impresive feats happen with intention to kill, then you are wrong. Luke with no intention to kill handled 6 cortosis armored Jensarai, all were spared life.

Farther from RotS novel:
"He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder".

Dooku deliberately limits his target to legs only.

With Anakin:
"He decides to win.

He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took"

Again limitation of target. Not to mention that this decision lacks intention to kill.

Limiting targets does not decrease performance, it is what skilled fighting is about. Practitioner limits targets in order to increase effectiveness. What you fail to understand is that there is no such situation, where fatal body parts are exposed, while non-lethal aren't. Every opening in the defense gives options to strike at several places, it's a matter of choice that does not limit performance at all.

And this:
"Brakiss showed the faintest glimmer of uncertainty in his normally calm and peaceful eyes when Luke drove in, this time intending to win. Luke struck again with the lightsaber, always maintaining his focus and drive, not letting anger take control, doing only what he wished to do.

The Master of the Shadow Academy defended himself and Luke saw his chance to strike. He altered his aim just slightly, not striking the energy blade itself. He could have swung lower to take off the hand of his former student, much as Darth Vader had cut off Luke's own hand-but Luke didn't want to maim Brakiss in such a way. He needed only to ruin his weapon.

His lightsaber struck across the top of Brakiss's handle, just below the terminus of the energy beam and above the knuckles of the grip".

This is yet another brilliant example from Luke that intention to kill is not needed to demonstrate top performance. And it perfectly supports my point that ones there is an opening in defence, it is a matter of choice where to strike. Luke "saw his chance to strike" and he did, no holding back as he used the opportunity, when it arose. No intention to kill, yet, same result, opponent is defeated.

2/2

Yes it is needed, as you would not be limiting yourself as much as you would be if you're not trying to kill. When you're not trying to kill your opponent, you're limiting yourself to certain targets only. Stop arguing against common sense.

Stop trying to twist context. The quote doesn't say "even here, I'm still willing to kill you." It's not Yoda admitting that he was always willing to kill Dooku, considering that just moments before, he was telling Dooku how he does not wish to hurt him. It was Yoda admitting that even there on Vjun, where the dark side is trying to tempt him, he still loves Dooku, and that if he does kill Dooku, it will not be out of hate or anger (dark side emotions). The quote was in response to Dooku trying to get Yoda to use hate emotions by taunting Yoda saying: ""Feel me. Feel the treason. All those years of teaching me, raising me. Trusting me. And here am I, the favored son, butchering your precious Jedi, one by one. Hate me Yoda. You know you want to.".

So again, the quote had nothing to do with their previous fight; it was in response to Dooku's taunts.

Yoda used the force offensively during his fight with Sidious. He pushed Sidious over his desk, and almost crushed him with a redirected senate pod. Yes, the force can be used to disable your opponent, or at least gain an upperhand, especially if you're actually trying to kill them. Yoda did not attempt to throw any of the stuff that Dooku was throwing at him. The only time Yoda used the force offensively was when he redirected an attack that Dooku knew how to counter.

Why is it that you believe that when someone is trying to kill their opponent, that they can't use anything less than a killing strike? That is just silly, they don't have to limit themselves to fatal attacks only. The only time one limits himself, is when he is NOT trying to kill.

Intention to kill is irrelevant, when it comes to outskilling and defeating opponent. It's just after opponent is already defeated, he might get second chance because he wasn't killed. Like when Windu defeated Sidious, lightning followed. Or when Luke defeated Sidious, Force storm followed. But that's just about it.

Here is good example of how even in sparring Jedi try their best to defeat each other:
"Both paused for a long while, and then, suddenly, Anakin came rushing ahead, lightsaber twirling up and around, slicing down for Jacen's shoulder, and when Jacen easily parried, Anakin sent it around the other way, diving along the opposite angle.

Jacen parried that, too, catching Anakin's weapon with his own and bringing both around and down, back out to Jacen's left, and then around some more. When the blades were each out straight between the brothers, Jacen rolled his wrist, looping his blade further about Anakin's. But Anakin was up to the measure, and he snapped his blade straight downward to break it free of the dangerous tangle, then brought it up again fast enough to knock Jacen's blade aside before his brother could put it point-in at his throat and score a quick victory.

Anakin brought his blade back past one shoulder and slapped it out, sparks flying as it connected with Jacen's parry. Again, Anakin attacked, and then again, as if he meant to beat his brother back right through a wall. Anger betrays you," Jacen said, and the words sent a chill through Anakin, words that spoke of the truth of the moment, and of the dark side of the Force, a place no Jedi could ever afford to visit.

Anakin's attack mellowed, went more to finesse, subtle thrusts and slashes, and deceptively slight movements to parry Jacen's every attack.

And so they went for many minutes, back and forth across the room, each seeming to gain a momentary edge only to lose it again through the other's quick response. They had to trust in themselves, and in each other, for there were no practice modes on their lightsabers. The slightest miss, or wrong deflection, or too-far thrust, could bring serious harm.

But they went on anyway, their philosophical differences playing themselves out through sword fighting, and before long, Jacen's warning notwithstanding, both were into it viciously, swiping and dodging, thrusting low and high, and more than parrying, batting each other's blade aside. Jacen came out of that fit first, mellowing his parries to those subtle and beautiful shifts and turns, and offering few offensive routines at all.

That sudden passivity only spurred Anakin on to greater intensity. His lightsaber slashed once, twice, and thrice from the left, then he spun about a complete circuit, reversing his grip as he went, and slashed, once, twice, thrice, from the right.

Jacen parried the first three from his left, then parried again and again from the right, and then ... ducked.

And Anakin, so into the flow, thinking to take the third parry and spin back the other way, swooshed his blade right over his ducking brother and overbalanced as the weapon hit nothing but air.

Up Jacen came behind it, a sudden, subtle stab, that sent Anakin's lightsaber flying away and made the younger boy leap back and grab his stung hand.

Jacen clicked off his blade. The Force is a power within, for the good of within," he said. We're not a galactic patrol."

Anakin stared at his brother long and hard, clearly surprised that Jacen, who practiced far less than he, had so cleanly beaten him.".

As you see they aimed their attacks anywhere, even at throat. They simply trusted each other that on reaching target they will stop attack short causing only minor damage. And that's what Jacen did. He caused shin damage to Anakin's hand, which was still enough to disarm him. They both fought on top of their effectiveness but when opportunity came for Jacen to defeat brother, he used non-lethal way to finish the fight.

Originally posted by Vensai
Vjun is a dark force nexus, what's your point?

I must have missed this^

My point was made pretty clear. Not sure how you missed it.

A dark side nexus is an ideal place for a sith lord to draw on the force to boost their powers, which in turn can increase their combat performance. It gives them an advantage that it does not give one who uses the light side of the force. Usually the more powerful the nexus is, the greater the boost it gives the dark sider. And Vjun was very strong in the dark side, and it increased Dooku's combat performance, as noted in the text. But despite Dooku's amp, he was still losing his fight against Yoda; he was being pushed back by Yoda's attacks and sweating in streams to counter them, and was eventually forced to flee.

"It frightens me," Scout said. "The Force is very strong here. If even I can feel that, I can only imagine what it must be like for you. I don't think it's a good idea for us to use it unless we absolutely have to. It's like... air with too much oxygen. The dark side is just waiting to catch fire." (Yoda: DR)

^Here's the quote I was looking for the other day. It suggests that a light sider would be hesitant to even use the force in a place strong with the dark side. So not only does a dark side nexus give a dark sider an advantage, but it also puts a light sider at a disadvantage, unless they are willing to use the dark side, and the text shows that Yoda was trying to resist the affects of the dark side and trying to calm himself while at the same time fighting with Dooku.

Scout says there "The Force is very strong here." Which means Yoda would get a boost there as well.

But I agree the main disadvantage to Yoda is that he has to resist the Dark Side while using the Force there, which is why he says "Even here... Love you enough to kill you I do."

But that's more of an internal struggle. It would be difficult to quantify how much that effected his combat performance (if at all). "and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold."

Wait so Yoda got amped as well?

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Wait so Yoda got amped as well?

It would seem so. Vjun was a force nexus. I.e. Amplifying force powers.

However it was also steeped in the dark side. So if your using the Force there then your likely feeling and accessing the dark side much more than usual.

But where combat effectiveness comes into it is the Jedi would likely hold back so he doesn't totally give into the Dark Side.

On a side note the same novel has Dooku remembering himself being equal/superior to Yoda on Geonosis. That of course doesn't make it true. But it does make it more unlikely that Dooku ran away because he knew he was outmatched by Yoda in AOTC. Because if he did, he's completely forgotten that and made up a new memory by DR.

Interesting. Either way I don't use it when discussing Dooku's abilities as we don't know the amp of Vjun.

Fair enough. His fight against Yoda in AOTC is still his best feat to date regardless.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Wait so Yoda got amped as well?

Nope, not at all, unless Yoda was using the dark side on the planet to amp his powers, which is doubtful and way out of character for him. The passage does, however, suggest that Yoda did have a lot of anger towards Dooku, and being on a planet steeped in the dark side was making it worse, which is why he was trying to hold back his anger so as to not fall to the dark side.

We have Yoda who was trying his hardest to hold back his anger and resist the dark side on the planet, whereas we have Dooku who was taking full advantage of the dark side and using it to augment his combat abilities. It is silly to assume that Yoda was benefiting from a dark side nexus the way a fully trained sith lord who is trained in focusing his rage, hate and other dark side emotions to boost himself. Like I said, a dark side nexus is an ideal place for a sith lord to use his anger and rage to it's fullest in order to increase his abilities. Yoda, on the other hand, was trying his hardest to hold back his anger and resist the dark side, which would logically hamper his performance more than anything, IMO.

Also, I believe there is a source that says that a dark side nexus weakens a light siders powers.

Originally posted by Jedi Mom
Interesting. Either way I don't use it when discussing Dooku's abilities as we don't know the amp of Vjun.

The dark side was strong on Vjun, and it made Dooku more dangerous than ever. Read the novel. You can ignore it all you want, but facts are facts.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The dark side was strong on Vjun, and it made Dooku more dangerous than ever. Read the novel. You can ignore it all you want, but facts are facts.

^ Or how Yoda's power was affected. So basically the better fight to judge is their AOTC fight.

Jedi Mom
Wait so Yoda got amped as well?

As Dooku threatened and goaded him, yes. Yoda realizes the trick, though: "Cunning, are you."

Otherwise, SIDIOUS_66 is laying it out pretty accurately. Yoda explains to Mace Windu and Ilena Xan on page 5 (paperback edition) that Vjun is "strong in the dark side." Dooku muses later (page 19) that the planet was "heavy with the dark side, which made study of the Sith ways easier." On page 258, when Fidelis relays Vjun's reputation as being strong with the Force, Yoda corrects him: "Strong it is... with the dark side."

The dark side and the Force are not separate. It is a single phenomenon, a united energy field. The Force on Vjun is heightened unquestionably but equally unquestionably, it favors the dark side especially. Anyone who suggests otherwise either hasn't read the book or is lying to you.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, I believe there is a source that says that a dark side nexus weakens a light siders powers.

Although the Force touches all places, there are places where the dark side holds more sway. These places of evil and corruption tempt those who enter with promises of unlimited power and lures of greatness. Those connected with the light side of the Force find their powers diminished in these places, while those who wield the dark side are amazed at the strength that they gain, even as that energy overwhelms them.

—The Jedi Academy Training Manual, page 156

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Or how Yoda's power was affected. So basically the better fight to judge is their AOTC fight.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Although the Force touches all places, there are places where the dark side holds more sway. These places of evil and corruption tempt those who enter with promises of unlimited power and lures of greatness. Those connected with the light side of the Force find their powers diminished in these places, while those who wield the dark side are amazed at the strength that they gain, even as that energy overwhelms them.

—The Jedi Academy Training Manual, page 156

Thank you, sir.

How can one fight to the best of his ability when the source of his power (light side) is being diminished by another source of power (dark side) that he is trying to avoid using?

Despite Yoda's diminished light side powers and his struggle to avoid using the dark side, he was still able to best Dooku, who was taking full advantage of the dark side nexus to increase his combat performance.

Maybe Dooku can give Yoda a challenge on any given day, but it's certain that he, even with a power boost, can't even hope to beat Yoda on Yoda's worse day, so I'm not sure how he can be considered a near equal to him in sabers.

He did better in AotC than in DR considering the circumstances imo.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

How can one fight to the best of his ability when the source of his power (light side) is being diminished by another source of power (dark side) that he is trying to avoid using?

Yes but what happens is when he's forced to use the Force he's naturally accessing the Dark side there. Because it'd be almost impossible not to.

Hence the line "Even here.. Love you enough to kill you I do.." and "in the dark vjun air Yoda was terrible to behold.."

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Despite Yoda's diminished light side powers and his struggle to avoid using the dark side, he was still able to best Dooku, who was taking full advantage of the dark side nexus to increase his combat performance.

Perhaps. But it wasn't much different to their fight on a force neutral planet.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Maybe Dooku can give Yoda a challenge on any given day, but it's certain that he, even with a power boost, can't even hope to beat Yoda on Yoda's worse day, so I'm not sure how he can be considered a near equal to him in sabers.

If they were not near equals then the fight would be more like Sidious vs Maul/Savage. But there clearly wasn't anywhere near that level of disparity.

Fact is this same source which you love bringing up to try and prove Yoda>>>Dooku flat out states Dooku >/= Windu. And we know from multiple sources Windu is close to Yoda in Sabers at least. Even the difference in the Force is not HUGE. Though there is a clear difference.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yes but what happens is when he's forced to use the Force he's naturally accessing the Dark side there. Because it'd be almost impossible not to.

Why would he be forced to? It's not like Dooku was winning, and it's not like his light side powers were completely gone, they were only diminished.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Hence the line "Even here.. Love you enough to kill you I do.."

Thanks for proving my point. Yoda tells Dooku that he will kill him out of love (which is not a dark side emotion) despite the dark side tempting him to use negative emotions. Basically he was trying to resist using the dark side.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and "in the dark vjun air Yoda was terrible to behold.."

Yoda momentarily used the dark side. He almost let his anger get to him, but then he held it back.

Yoda with full access to his light side powers >> Yoda with his light side powers diminished, while struggling to resist the dark side. Period.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Perhaps. But it wasn't much different to their fight on a force neutral planet.

Their fight on a neutral planet lasted about 30 seconds before Dooku felt the need to flee. I fail to see how that suggests Dooku was a near equal to Yoda, when evidently Yoda wasn't trying his hardest on Dooku, otherwise he wouldn't have restrained himself in their force duel. I'm not going to assume that Yoda suddenly got more serious after he whips out his saber.

Either that, or Dooku without a power boost > Dooku with a power boost. But that doesn't make much sense, now does it?

I mean, AOTC Obi Wan lasted almost as long against Dooku as Dooku lasted against Yoda. So would you suggest that Obi Wan was fighting equally with Dooku? The only difference is, Dooku fled before Yoda could finish him.

As I said, Dooku may be a challenge for Yoda on any given day, but the gap between them is such that Dooku, with a power boost, can't even hope to beat Yoda on Yoda's worse day.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If they were not near equals then the fight would be more like Sidious vs Maul/Savage. But there clearly wasn't anywhere near that level of disparity.

Putting up more of a struggle against Yoda than Maul and Savage did against Palpatine means that Dooku is a near equal to Yoda? By that logic, Barriss is a near equal to Anakin, considering she gave him far more of a struggle than Maul & Savage gave Palpatine.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Fact is this same source which you love bringing up to try and prove Yoda>>>Dooku flat out states Dooku >/= Windu. And we know from multiple sources Windu is close to Yoda in Sabers at least. Even the difference in the Force is not HUGE. Though there is a clear difference.

Mind posting the source, since you claim that you know there is a one?

My mind is made up on this subject, until someone can bring a better argument than you and Arhael have been. I initially planned on ignoring you and Arhael, but I addressed this to make my argument more clear. If my last few posts doesn't get across to anyone, then Idk what more I can say. But I'm done with this argument.

Lol Yoda holding back on Geonosis?